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PostPosted: Wed Jan 27, 2010 10:14 pm 
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jdhammond1982, and I suggest you take some courses in reading comprehension, passive aggressiveness behavior, and getting your ego under control, lol.

You consider me to have an anger problem because I disagree with you and call you on your bullcrap?


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 Post subject: Dude
PostPosted: Wed Jan 27, 2010 10:38 pm 
Dude, you are out of control. I was trying to encourage you in your taper, and you reacted like a psycho!! Also, you need to learn some basic facts about opiod cross-tolerance and opioid addiction in general. I think you are still, regretably, stuck in a "morally wrong/sinful" model of addiction. I do feel very bad for you. I'll be praying for you. God bless! 8)


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 Post subject: One more thing...
PostPosted: Wed Jan 27, 2010 10:42 pm 
You might want to check out my other post. I don't let disturbed/unhappy people like you get me out of my square now. And please don't send me any more explicit messages.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 27, 2010 10:44 pm 
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jdhammond1982, you really have poor understanding of me. It's ok, though. Good luck to you, too.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 28, 2010 1:24 am 
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I would appreciate any input has on the liquid method I'm using. Do I seem to be doing it right? I'll repost the original text:

Having just started using the liquid method of measuring Suboxone, I find immediately that it feels like I am taking less Sub. There are grains in the solution that have not dissolved. I shake it up well before administering to hopefully keep it all administered evenly. I've put 1/2 a 8mg pill (4mg) in 8ml of water and measure off 1ml each dose to get .5ml of Sub. Sounds right?

I do not find at all that it hits me faster as the original poster of the liquid method stated.

That's all.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 28, 2010 3:03 am 
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subjohn wrote:
I would appreciate any input has on the liquid method I'm using. Do I seem to be doing it right? I'll repost the original text:

Having just started using the liquid method of measuring Suboxone, I find immediately that it feels like I am taking less Sub. There are grains in the solution that have not dissolved. I shake it up well before administering to hopefully keep it all administered evenly. I've put 1/2 a 8mg pill (4mg) in 8ml of water and measure off 1ml each dose to get .5ml of Sub. Sounds right?

I do not find at all that it hits me faster as the original poster of the liquid method stated.

That's all.


Hey Subjohn- You shouldn't have undissolved grains in your Suboxone solution...I'm not sure why that's happening. I would make my solution by crushing the pill and then mixing it with water, either by shaking it or stirring it with a glass cocktail stirrer that I have. Buprenorphine is highly soluble in water, so hopefully any particles you've got in there are just binders or something. You could also try mixing some vodka or something in there to get it to dissolve better...however, this burns a bit when you hold it in your mouth.

I found that a full ml of water was too much to keep under my tongue so I dosed with .5ml at a time...and I split my dose am & pm until I got down to a quarter mg. I kept the solution in my mouth for about 15 min, didn't drink or eat for another 20 minutes past that.

You said that you feel like you are taking less sub since you started the liquid method...you did decrease your dose, right? Or are you taking the same amount as liquid that you were taking in pill form? If you are taking less, then it makes sense that you'd be feeling the decrease. It seems that you've gone from 1.5mgs to .5mgs in a matter of a few days, which is quite a drop.

You can PM me if you want, but our experience is going to differ as you're tapering way faster than I did. Still, I'm glad to try to help.

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You can't stop the waves, but you can learn to surf.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 28, 2010 10:31 am 
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I havent done this method, but I would definitely crush the pill first, and maybe use hot or boiling water...?


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 28, 2010 10:34 am 
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Im sorry- I meant hot or boiling water to dissolve the pill. Obviously, dont put boiling water under your tounge.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 28, 2010 11:29 am 
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I've used liquid and the pill will disolve completely if you stir with a plastic tooth pick and shake around a bit. I put the solution in a small liquid measure cup like you find with cough syrup. A child proof medicine cap fit snuggly over it for storage inside my fridge. I stored it in an empty egg carton slot which i kept in veg drawer.

I don't want to get in debate on your taper schedule... but I wish you had time to go a little slower. The good news is you will put this behind you quicker. Good luck and keep posting.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 28, 2010 6:29 pm 
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Hmm, it's a little weird that it hasn't dissolved. I've done lots of shaking. One possibility is that there's more in there than is possible to be dissolved in that amount of water. But it sounds like someone else used an even smaller amount of water. So very possible it simply can't be dissolved in that amount of water completely. It should be OK, though since I shake it up right before I take it and the syringe outlet is far larger than the particles. Probably the cause of my problem is simply that I have tapered very rapidly and it takes 3 to 4 days for the full effect of a taper to occur. I'm experiencing full effect. I actually tried to drop some more today. .2 mg, but I'm thinking now of jumping back up a little until I feel normal again. I don't seem to be adjusting as fast as I was. Maybe I'll do better if I have a couple of days where I don't feel like crap before I drop again. I'm nearing 21 days, though. Too bad.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 28, 2010 6:59 pm 
Just to clarify for you - 1cc = 1ml. If you were using 0.1ml, yes that's a very tiny amount of liquid to dissolve medication in. I might add also that I've wondered since you first started posting if you realize that the difficulty people have with tapering in terms of "feeling" the drops does not usually occur until they are at the lower doses (like under 2 mg/day). I figured with as much reading and research as you seem to have done that you probably know that. I know for me, I felt pretty much nothing, had no trouble at all dropping from 16mg to 8mg and then to 4mg/day over a fairly short period of time. Unlike what you're doing, however, I had/have no real intention on getting off Suboxone as fast as I can. I've certainly had to slow way down once I've gotten down to 4mg/day.....not because I've had a lot of physical withdrawal symptoms but more because I know I've got more work to do recovery-wise if I intend to have the cycle of addiction broken permanently. I use Suboxone as a tool....not as a crutch.....or as just an avenue to avoid withdrawal in getting off opiates altogether. I have other tools too....my addiction education through outpatient treatment, my spiritual beliefs/life, my work on my physical health, and this forum among other things. I know that I need TIME to get to a place where I feel confident that I'm ready to try life again "drug"-free. I lived the first 40 years of my life with no substance abuse problems of any kind, so sure, I'd like to get back to that. Now, the good Dr. Junig says "it ain't happenin", that I can't go back....and you know what? He might be right....he's a lot smarter than I am and he's lived this deal (addiction) himself, so I'm sure not going to argue with him. However, I do have hope that at some point I'll be able to do this without Suboxone. But it takes as long as it takes. And until and unless I am much more confident than I am now, I will continue taking a little piece of this little orange pill!
I know you don't want to be talked into staying on Suboxone and overall, I think you've done a pretty good job of stating your case. I certainly wish you the best in your recovery. I don't think it matters how you get there.....it's staying there that counts. And if you're able to do a rapid taper with Sub, work the steps and stay in recovery....more power to ya!
But yeah, it's going to be much more difficult now that your dose is down where you're at now. Generally it's a piece of cake dropping from the higher doses which can be misleading....it's not so easy when you get lower. I sincerely wish you the best and I appreciate your updates on how it's going for you!


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 29, 2010 5:08 pm 
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Yeah, I went back an figured out about the CC vs 1ml. I'm using 1ml. I also got tired of my 3 days of light sickness and last night took .5 mg, and then an hour or 2 later another .5 making it 1.5 for the day. Oddly about 3 hours later I was high as a kite. Well, more like high as balloon held by a man about my height ;). I talked to my sponser about it (My god, I just got high!) It wasn't intentional, but it did make me want to take a bunch more to see how high I could get. dammit. I'll only go up a .25 next time if I take more than 1mg in a day. At the moment I'm planning on slowing down my taper, just because part of my goal was to avoid withdrawals. Probably can't be avoided altogether. Actually the plan is to stay pretty even on the weekdays when I have to work, and use weekends to suffer some withdrawals to make bigger jumps down.

I hate being cold all the time. That's just not the way my metabolism is normally. Lots of people in my office, mostly girls, say they are always cold in the office, bringing in small heaters. I'm never cold, when I'm not in withdrawals. I also hate wearing anything but a shirt. No jackets, sweaters, etc. They make me feel confined.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 01, 2010 1:11 pm 
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frustrated. Can't seem to drop under 1mg. I'm planning to suffer a bit the next 2 weekends to see if I can get some headway. I'll try to take nothing past Thu evening and then take as little as possible as I can tolerate the withdrawals that for me start kicking in about 12 hours past my last .5mg dose. On Sunday night I'll return to a, hopefully, lower standard level so I can sleep well and return to work on Monday feeling mostly OK. Again, hopefully at a comfortable lower level through the week. Repeat the process the following weekend. If I have to slow down, it's not the end of the world. But I need to see progress.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 02, 2010 7:24 pm 
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Hey Subjohn... I'm on the taper train right now too, but mine is probably going to be more abrupt, but gotta do what ya gotta do I guess..

I've been hovering around 3mg average a day for about 3 weeks and dropped down to 2mg Saturday, and down to 1.5 Sunday and Monday and again today... I plan to drop to 1mg tomorrow and see how I hold up until Thursday morning..

So far it's been okay.. i've done a 9 day taper using methadone and it worked fairly well... so I hope that with only using sub for maybe a month or 2 and only have a moderate opiate addiction for the last year.. like 20-30mg a day of opiates... which is pretty low for some people.

So I know all about WD and I have gone cold turkey after a couple hard core addictions to opiates so I know what the first 2-3 days are going to be like... well actually the first 2 days off sub is not bad because its still in your system, but I mean first 2 days of it being completely out of your system..

I'm getting some clonidine to help with the cold sweats and heart pounding.. so if that works like people say.. Im just going to take 3 days off and the weekend so about 5-6 days off and just relax and try to go through 5 days of "serious" WD before attempting work.. after that I think things will be better from there.

Exercise helps a lot and staying mobile and stretching... helps a lot with the leg pain and so forth..

Anyways, just thought i'd drop in and post.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 16, 2010 4:38 pm 
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Well update to my last post to this thread.. I stopped at .25 on Friday, here it is Tuesday and havent touched sub since then... WD symptoms are very minimal, besides insomnia, which is kind of slaying me, but not keeping me from going to work.

The more I use my mind, the more I hope I exhaust it and get some sleep..

Though my dreams have been more and more annoying, they are like exhausting dreams, because Im trying to achieve some kind of process... so I just keep waking up and in that lucid state where I think i'm dreaming but I'm awake, really f'n annoying..

I'm curious how your taper is coming.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 16, 2010 5:14 pm 
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That sounds pretty awesome to me, gubulars. Mine is not going well at all. I can't get below 1mg. I'm trying .8 again. But I've been having really bad back, knee and neck pain. Especially in the mornings. It is extremely painful to get up in the morning. Sleep is fine, but when gravity hits my joints its hell for the first couple of hours. Surely this is related to withdrawals, I hope. I mean I had arthritis and periodic pains in those areas before all this (addiction and suboxone), but not this bad, and only in response to playing sports, which I have been doing very little of. I've actually gone over the 1mg on days when I am sick of being in pain. But I'm going to try to push harder. Were I only to get insomnia, that would seem great. Of course, I'm not very prone to insomnia, and I have a bunch of sleeping pills and valium to help with that temporarily should that occur. Insomnia has always had a way of working itself out for me, I mean after a couple of days, I get so exhausted I can sleep and it gets better after that. I've been addicted to sleeping pills before and I hate that. So they are something I only take very minimally. I hope it goes well for. I need to post some more about how it's been going for me. There's some other stuff I want to report and some questions I have. I'm really not planning on jumping off until I am down to .1mg every other day.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 16, 2010 7:38 pm 
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subjohn:

yeah it can be hard to get down, especially if you do already suffer from chronic pain... luckily my pain prior to opiate abuse wasn't really bad... and so my aches and pains can be managed with some ibuprofen. Though I went today without taking any clonidine and haven't felt really any hot flashes / cold sweats so I'm thinking I'm down to the insomnia game and like you said that will get better... I'll probably baby it along until Thursday and then stop taking any kind of sleep aid to see where I'm at...

Though I will note that once you're below .25 mg you really are at a mental state then actually getting anything done. So you should be safe to jump off at .25mg even after a few days at that dose...

Keep your head up man.. I know its rough and I don't blame you... just gotta get through the shitty days and eventually there will be sunshine!


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 16, 2010 8:14 pm 
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hey, so you've used the clonidine some? does it help with anything?


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 16, 2010 8:29 pm 
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Oh you know it! It helps amazingly for the hot flashes and cold sweats and really do think it helps some what with the anxiety and heard it can help with RLS, but this time around because of tapering I havent really had the hardcore WD side effects..

I've cold turkey 2 times before... off an 60mg oxy habit....

Though I was prescribed .2mg 3x a day and I did that on Saturday and I was ZOMBIE MAN!!!! I don't know if it had part to do with coming off the subs + the clonidine, but it was like walking through thick sludge... so I droped it down to .1mg twice a day.. or .1mg during the day and .2mg at night...

But yes, it seemed to be a life saver.. I just swallowed my pride and went to my doc, who isnt a addiction doc, but he has a good friend who is a doctor who specializes in that and he called to get what I should need.. but yeah.. Clonidine in that fact helped a lot.

I'm on Day 4 of nothing and I didn't actually take it today... and I've actually favored pretty well.. haven't had any odd heat / cold issues.. though my mind does mess with me because ive been so used to being on opiates that hot / cold never really was noticeable to me, but now I notice it way more, but I think that's me coming back to reality.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 16, 2010 9:07 pm 
Subjohn, Thanks for posting an update for us. I'm sorry your taper and jump are going a little more slowly than you had hoped/planned. I can't say I'm surprised really because it's been my experience thus far (albeit quite limited) that there is no quick fix to getting and staying off opiates.
It does add a extra twist to things when you're a chronic pain sufferer as well, I'm sure. Difficult to tell sometimes if the pain is w/d related or chronic pain related. In either case, Suboxone can bring relief, obviously especially so if it's w/d related. You've gotten down to a relatively low dose on your Sub really quickly....I hope you're able to feel pleased with your progress in that regard.
Keep in mind that what matters the most is your long-term success/sobriety. In my opinion, if that means you need your Sub longer than you'd anticipated, so be it. You're on the right track.
Hang in there and please keep letting us know how it's all going for you.


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