It is currently Sun Aug 20, 2017 7:42 am



All times are UTC - 5 hours [ DST ]


Our Sponsors





Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 8 posts ] 
Author Message
PostPosted: Sat Nov 09, 2013 2:32 pm 
Offline
Power Poster
Power Poster

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2010 7:13 pm
Posts: 62
This post is related to my previous post that started with my asking if my doctor prescribing Tramadol to get off of Suboxone would work.

I shared with the community that I wanted to get off of Suboxone (been on for almost 5 years) because I didn’t like always feeling numb and detached from life. But I had another issue that I didn’t talk about--another apparent side effect that up until now I thought was just me—some strange and disturbing imbalance in my otherwise scintillating personality (kidding here) that was causing me to act crazy sometimes (not kidding here).

So, here is what one poster said in a community forum:

I
Quote:
t appears sub causes AGITATION/IRRITABILITY if you guys haven't notice. Please try to be mindful of others. I know sub can raise dopamine levels therefore causing agitation but just keep that in mind so you don't hurt other peoples' feelings.


Wow. Sub raises dopamine levels? This explains a LOT. First, it explains why, when I tried to get off of Sub in the past, I felt extreme depression and suicidal thoughts...serious, scary ones. It also explains my strange behavior for the last 5 years. All this time I was blaming myself--condemning myself—for this intermittent agitation/irritability. Just as bad, it has cost me jobs—well paying, "dream jobs" that most writers would have given their eye teeth for.

Here's how it would invariably go down: Suddenly, without any warning, I would start feeling extremely agitated at work (or in other situations) and this would lead me to say and/or do something that would cause me to sabotage myself in some way. When I was in that extreme agitation zone, it was like being in a manic phase...I had no control over it. I also had no idea of what would trigger these episodes. It was completely unpredictable.

Yes, it's true that pre-drugs, I had my "issues." (Who doesn't?) Psych doctors would switch my diagnosis from bipolar to severe ADHD. Other people just thought I was quirky and creative. One shrink called me a "frustrated genius." I was probably all those things...well except the genius part. But even in all that, I could hold my job as editor of a travel magazine and was a single mother dedicated to raising two beautiful, wholesome and happy daughters.

But here’s the thing: Pain will find a way to be dealt with. The easiest way, of course, is simply to numb oneself. It is the proverbial path of least resistance. Suboxone does this beautifully and Yes, I am being sarcastic. Because there is nothing beautiful about being detached and numb.

Pre-drugs, I did what they call in AA "doing a geographic." That is how I dealt with my emotional pain. I didn't do drugs. I didn't drink. I just changed zip codes because I always felt better when I moved. It's not rocket science why I did this: Sexual abuse from one relative, a verbally mother with both Borderline and Narcissistic Personality Disorder, a series of stepfathers, and then a husband who cheated on me. As one shrink said, "It's amazing to me that you're still alive."

Thank God my daughters didn’t have to endure any of this. Yes, they were raised in a single-parent household—without a father—and that took it’s toll, but they have overcome most of that fallout through faith in God and the support of their respective communities.

But I digress. The sad irony in all this is that I was completely against drugs—prescription or otherwise. So I refused to take anything for the bipolar and/or the ADHD. Once I agreed to take Zoloft and all that did was push me into a manic phase that made me completely crazy...I wouldn't sleep for days. That experience alone was enough to convince me that seeking chemical solutions to one' s problems is a really bad idea.

But then 7 years ago I had back surgery, was prescribed Vicodin, took it longer then I should have (because I was never told that there was a difference between "real" pain and pain of withdrawal) and the rest is a tired, old story that I am sure you are all familiar with.

So, here I am now. 7 years later and addicted to Suboxone. The “side” effects: Numbness and detached from life... yet also intermittently super irritable and increasingly agitated. I won't argue the semantics of "physical dependence" vs. "psychological addiction." All I know is that I have tried several times to get off of Suboxone and it almost cost me my life. The way I see it, if you are unable to get off a drug—any drug—without it causing you extreme physical and emotional distress, I call that an addiction.

All comments on this idea of Suboxone raising dopamine levels and causing irritability and agitation are most welcome. And what about Serotonin levels. Do they go down?

Hmmm…


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Nov 09, 2013 3:44 pm 
Offline
Super Poster
Super Poster

Joined: Tue Aug 20, 2013 11:17 pm
Posts: 157
Buprenorphine raising dopamine levels is not news, all opiates raise dopamine levels that is the entire point and what causes analgesia/euphoria.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Nov 10, 2013 11:30 am 
Offline
Power Poster
Power Poster

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2010 7:13 pm
Posts: 62
Quote:
Buprenorphine raising dopamine levels is not news, all opiates raise dopamine levels that is the entire point and what causes analgesia/euphoria.


Uh...I said nothing about any"euphoria"...what does euphoria have to do with irritability and agitation anyway? (Unless the euphoria from an opiate comes with the price of feeling the opposite when you start to lose that feeling?)

But I was clearly NOT talking about a full opiate. Obviously, I'm aware that full opiates like Vicodin, etc., cause euphoria—hence the addiction and the drug seeking behavior. So with those kinds of opiates, you are seeking a high. But with Sub, a PARTIAL opioid agonist, there is not the feeling of euphoria. You just NEED to keep taking it because if you don't, you will go into full-on withdrawal in about 2-3 days—a withdrawal that is worse than the withdrawal from the drug (in my case Vicodin) that was replaced with an opioid agonist. And which can last for a very long time, hence the term, PAWS.

What I was never told, or was not aware of, was the irritability and agitation that comes with Sub. And that is what I attributed to myself all these years ...an unexplainable aberration of my personality that I could not control and for which I condemned myself wholeheartedly.

Clear?

FYI: I was looking for support--not a one-line "tell us something new" kind of response that was only remotely related to my post. Perhaps the more supportive people could help here?

Because now that I know where all this uncontrollable irritability and agitation comes from, I absolutely NEED something to stop that—especially as I am trying to get off this drug. What would be a good "calmer down" is what I am wondering.


Top
 Profile  
 
Our Sponsors
PostPosted: Sun Nov 10, 2013 2:48 pm 
Offline
3 Months or More
3 Months or More

Joined: Thu Aug 08, 2013 12:54 am
Posts: 90
Clear!
You've proved you own point.
Dont look now but i can smell a dopamine crash in the air. Or maybe you just get the shits all the time regardless of any drugs?
But, i must agree a bit. When i was on sub i did get annoyed all the time. More while in mild wd. Use to feels waves of anger etc. It did feel like a 'chemical' inbalance as most time no reason for it.
Now no sub it doesnt happen anymore. Things a lot more calm.
Dont forget people may be nutcases before opiates and when they are taken away go back to being so.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Nov 10, 2013 4:25 pm 
Offline
6 Months or More
6 Months or More
User avatar

Joined: Sat Aug 04, 2012 5:42 pm
Posts: 226
Location: Minneapolis
paythepiper wrote:
Uh...I said nothing about any"euphoria"...what does euphoria have to do with irritability and agitation anyway? (Unless the euphoria from an opiate comes with the price of feeling the opposite when you start to lose that feeling?)


Yep, it's called dysphoria.

_________________
TPN Service Companies
Travis Norton, LADC/LAC
540 Greenhaven Road #201|Anoka, MN 55303
(763)250.0702
http://www.facebook.com/TpnServiceCompanies
Person-centered counseling, education, advocacy, referral services and assessments.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Nov 12, 2013 1:32 pm 
Offline
Power Poster
Power Poster

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2010 7:13 pm
Posts: 62
TwinCitiesHardcore wrote:
paythepiper wrote:
Uh...I said nothing about any"euphoria"...what does euphoria have to do with irritability and agitation anyway? (Unless the euphoria from an opiate comes with the price of feeling the opposite when you start to lose that feeling?)


Yep, it's called dysphoria.


I CHOOSE LIFE.

Thanks for this. Helpful!

Here's the thing. I have FINALLY learned from painful experience that it is not enough to just break a bad habit—be it drugs, anger, TV, complaining, gossip...ANY of these things are negative and destructive. And they will cause us to remain immature, not being able to control our emotions but always giving into our lower nature. In other words, instead of starving the negative habits, we feed them.

So, I am not just trying to get drugs out of my system only to be left with a spiritual, emotional and physical void that will still need to be filled by something—chemical or otherwise. So, while I am slowly tapering off Suboxone, I am simultaneously building myself up by listening to positive, faith building messages. You could say I am "being transformed by the renewal of my mind" and also "building myself up on my most holy faith."

Because our mind is the battlefield. That I do know. So when "dysphoria" hits, THIS time, I will not be surprised, shocked or unprepared for it. Because every day, with God's grace, I am CHOOSING to "believe all things, hope all things, endure all things."

I have wasted so much of my life being immature, depressed, unhappy and angry (with some happiness and joy in between of course) because I have allowed life to happen to me, instead of choosing the kind of life I really want.

"I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life"

So, TODAY I choose life. And tomorrow I will need to make the same choice. And the next, and the next....

:) :) :)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Nov 12, 2013 1:57 pm 
Offline
Power Poster
Power Poster

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2010 7:13 pm
Posts: 62
c1234 wrote:
Clear!
You've proved you own point.
Dont look now but i can smell a dopamine crash in the air. Or maybe you just get the shits all the time regardless of any drugs?
But, i must agree a bit. When i was on sub i did get annoyed all the time. More while in mild wd. Use to feels waves of anger etc. It did feel like a 'chemical' inbalance as most time no reason for it.
Now no sub it doesnt happen anymore. Things a lot more calm.
Dont forget people may be nutcases before opiates and when they are taken away go back to being so.


Well, I am not sure how I "proved my own point." Unless you are implying that I was being annoyed and irritable with you? Perhaps I was. If so, I am very sorry for that. I think I may do that without even realizing it.

I do appreciate your sharing about how you too were annoyed and irritable all the time on Sub. I am looking forward to not feeling that way. I would hope that you would wish that for me as well. :)

And no, I did not "get the shits" all the time pre-drugs, but I did get them about 50% of the time. I will readily admit that I suffered from bi-polar depression. If you want to call that being a "nut case" then so be it, though I sincerely hope that is not what you are implying. Because that would make you sound rather judgmental against 4.4% of our population. :(

Here's the thing. There are reasons why people act the way they do. And while I refuse to blame my crappy childhood on my bi-polar depression, suffice it to say that it was a strong contributing factor. Death, sexual and verbal abuse, mental illness and serial divorce in a family does not exactly breed spiritually and emotionally healthy children. I'm sure many can relate to that.

But I also believe that we can choose to not let our past determine my future. If you read my other, most recent post in this thread you will see how I am now working that out in my life.

...As far as the "dopamine crash"...well I am not going to expect or believe that this is inevitable. And even if I thought it were " a sure thing" in a fellow sufferer's life (I can only assume you too have experienced suffering or else you would not be posting here), I would not be quick to pronounce or even wish that on anyone. In fact, I would hope and pray the exact opposite for them.

Wouldn't you?


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Nov 16, 2013 2:13 pm 
Offline
3 Months or More
3 Months or More

Joined: Thu Aug 08, 2013 12:54 am
Posts: 90
All cool. Sorry i was probably being a bit of a smart ass. The anger and irritability does goes go. I was on methadone for years before sub and was always pretty calm and even. As soon as i started sub i noticed i got the shits and was aggressive. In fact i never shied away frim confrontation, almost welcolmed it.
Wasnt calling you a nutcase, just saying in general. Some people are a certain way to start with etc

Good luck to you.


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 8 posts ] 

All times are UTC - 5 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Our Sponsors
Suboxone Forum latest topics RSS feed Subscribe to the entire forum
 

 

 
Fond Du Lac Psychiatry
Dr. Jeffrey Junig, M.D., Ph.D.

  • Board Certified Psychiatrist
  • Asst Clinical Professor, Medical College of Wisconsin

Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group