It is currently Wed Aug 16, 2017 9:53 am



All times are UTC - 5 hours [ DST ]


Our Sponsors





Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 3 posts ] 
Author Message
PostPosted: Sun Aug 28, 2016 1:02 pm 
Offline
Average Poster
Average Poster

Joined: Thu Oct 16, 2014 4:11 am
Posts: 17
I have a couple more questions but first, I want to talk about an issue I have with the Subutex causing this. Has anyone heard of a person taking Subutex for a few years and then all of a sudden it turning on them and acts like you're going into precipitated withdrawals and you're not taking anything else (opiates), plus Subutex doesn't have Naloxone in it like Suboxone? I literally feel like I'm thrown into withdrawal episodes. What can do that if anything?

The other question I had was I wish to know the differences and people's experience between Subutex vs Suboxone, vs Zubsolv. I know that Zubsolv comes in smaller doses because it has a higher bioavailability or absorption rate than Suboxone and I assume that applies to Subutex as well since they are the same.

I'd like to know how they like Zubsolv vs the others and the pros and cons to them. My hope is that by using another drug that's basically the same but might work differently. I've heard of people having very different experiences with say Suboxone for example. They may be given the generic Buprenorphine, and Naloxone and have a very bad experience with it and then try the brand name Suboxone and have a completely different and positive experience with it. Technically it shouldn't make a difference, but it seems to in some people. It could be just a placebo effect and all psychological. Ya know what though, I don't care how or why it works, just as long as it works.

BTW, I take 2mg Subutex tabs that I break up into four 1/4 doses. I was taking 4 doses a day, but now I'm only taking 3 doses of Subutex and sometimes I have to go down to just take two doses which equal to 1mg a day. Already I'm not taking much, but it's obviously not enough. If I do that for a couple days, my breathing gets better and I can go back to the three 1/4 dose schedule a day.

Since Zubsolv is stronger than Subutex or Suboxone, they say a Zubsolv dose of 1.4mg is equal to a 2mg Sub. Again, I'd like to know people's experiences on Zubsolve. How much they took and how was that compared to Subutex or Suboxone. I'd also like to know the expense of it. My insurance carrier HMO California also called Brand New Day. It says they cover all these now or at least partially cover them. I currently pay about $12.45 and that's for 2 weeks worth, so I get 14 Subutex.
I don't know much the Suboxone is or the Zubsolv. Even partial cover may prove to be too expensive.

Thanks in advance,
Sithtiger


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Aug 28, 2016 7:22 pm 
Offline
Site Admin
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: Sun Feb 24, 2008 11:03 pm
Posts: 1542
Sith, you already have a good knowledge base about buprenorphine products. I agree with everything you wrote-- including your comments about the placebo effects with dosing. For whatever reason-- I assume because of the fear of withdrawal-- people struggle when changed from one buprenorphine med to another. It SHOULDN'T make a difference when people change medications, but it DOES. I suspect that withdrawal symptoms can become part of a person's memory, and then the memory is triggered by expectations and fears. People have minor withdrawal symptoms, and those symptoms trigger more-significant symptoms.

As for stable patients suddenly becoming 'unstable', usually other things are invovled, at least from what I've seen. For example I had a young couple, stable on buprenorphine, who started using crack cocaine. Suddenly their buprenorphine dose wasn't covering their symptoms, and they needed more.

From a chemical standpoint it is hard to come up with a scenario for buprenorphine 'turning' on a person. But addiction and cravings are complex phenomena-- and a person may perceive reasons for feelings that 'come out of nowhere' that aren't entirely accurate.

As for costs, every insurance plan will have different numbers. But not counting insurance, plain buprenorphine retails for less than $2 per 8 mg. Zubsolv and Suboxone are closer to $8 for 5.7 and 8 mg, respectively. If you are paying about a buck per pill, then you are getting a pretty good discount.

Hopefully others will chime in with personal experiences. Good luck!


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Aug 29, 2016 9:17 am 
Offline
Average Poster
Average Poster

Joined: Thu Oct 16, 2014 4:11 am
Posts: 17
Thanks Dr. Junig. If this is Dr. Junig I've spoken to you via email a few times. First, let me say that I haven't been abusing the Sub, nor have I taken any other opiate with it. The times I've taken Vicodin again briefly was after I stopped the Subutex. Even though I took it for 14 1/2 years I didn't have problems when I did take it. I took it after I went off the Sub and of course the Vicodin made me feel better. I remember telling you previously that the change in Sub seemed to have suddenly while I was at a concert. I'll get back to that in a bit, but I wanted to say that wasn't quite true. I forgot about a brief episode that I had prior to the problem at the concert. I was taking Vicodin and it was my first or second day on it. I was taking it as prescribed but I felt something I never felt before. I started having serious heart palpitations. Not only that, while driving in a car, it felt like I could feel every bump and it seemed like I could feel it in my heart. It was not a good sensation. It was just my wife and I on a 2 day trip and this feeling went on for hours. At that time I felt tightness in my chest and I had some trouble breathing but it wasn't call 911 bad, but not too far away from it either. I noticed that it not only affected me, mentally but physically as I felt completely exhausted and I hadn't done anything. Anyway, this feeling seem to slowly get better, but it lasted for about 6 or 7 hours and then went away and was feeling normal after that. That was the first time I felt this thing, but it wasn't as bad and I stopped taking the Vicodin after the next day, so I only took it for only 2 or 3 days and went off.

I had forgotten about that when I spoke about the concert. Also, long before the concert, I had started noticing the Subutex wasn't working quite as well. That is, I started getting pains in my joints that I didn't have before. I have arthritis that I know for sure in my both hip or leg sockets, left knee and right shoulder. I suspect I have it in the other joints too. I've had that back when I was 25 and doing Tae Kwon Do and had horrible hip pain after kicking. Anyway, the joint pain got bad, especially in my right shoulder, but it seems to move around sometimes. I also started getting more irritated and I'm a very laid back person. That is, I'm very slow to anger normally. Then I remember I started sweating sometimes. I got these symptoms checked out, but nothing turned up. At this point my breathing was still ok but the symptoms...well it felt like withdrawal symptoms and at that time I was prescribed 1 1/2 pills a day, so I was taking 3mg of Sub a day. As I've said before I would always break it up into quarters, although back then sometimes I would take half a pill at a time, but still not take more than what I was prescribed most of the time. Sometimes I'd take more like at the concert, but even then I probably ended up taking only 3 to 3.5mg. I started feeling nauseous. It basically felt like I was taking too much, so I stopped at whatever it was 3 to 3.5mg. I woke up the next day and took a dose, that is a 1/4 dose (and I never crushed, snorted or shot them) and started feeling bad again. About 4 or 5 hours later I took another dose and this time I was feeling worse than I did the night before. My wife thought I was just tired and I slept. It seemed to go away by the next day and I started feeling normal again. The times when the Sub wasn't working as well sometimes wasn't everyday, but the frequency that it started to not work as well increased.

This is when I started having trouble breathing. It wasn't horrible, but it felt like I had a weight on my chest or something almost all the time and my doctor noticed my blood pressure was going up which I never had a problem before and started taking Atenolol 25mg. That's when I finally stopped the Subutex and the odd thing was, I stopped cold turkey and the withdrawals wasn't that bad at all. So I was taking 3mg a day and just stopped and was ok.

So after I stopped, my breathing returned to normal. I have Bi-Polar II you know so I wasn't feeling that great and decided to go back on the Sub, thinking maybe my body just needed a break and it would go back to the way it was. As soon as I started taking it, I felt that pressure back in my chest, but it wasn't as bad this time. It was very bearable because the offset was the Sub was making me feel better overall, so the tradeoff was worth it.

So, the same thing started happening again, but also my doctor lowered my dose, so I was only taking one 2mg pill a day, but I still cut it up into quarters and took 1/4 four times a day at first. As the breathing problem got worse, I started getting what seemed to be panic attacks and while as this point they didn't last for weeks, they did last for hours, so I started dropping my dose and was only taking 3 doses a day, so a total of 1.75mg a day.

Then I remember it getting even worse and I notice this most when I take it at different times than I usually take it. I usually take my first dose around 1 or 2PM. My wife works night shift so we sleep in the day. I take the other 2 doses 5 or 6 hours a part. It does seem to get worse though, if say my last dose is taken at maybe 3AM and then I have to get up early and take it earlier, that does seem to start to set things into motion and things get worse.

Then, last October, we went to Las Vegas and spent 3 days there and that was when it got really bad. For 3 days straight, I had a really hard time breathing. It felt like I had to manually breath out of my mouth and even when I tried to sleep, I would almost be asleep and my body would jerk away because it felt like it stopped breathing. I don't know if that was the case, but it felt like my body woke me up and I gasp for air. Eventually, it gets better, but after I get up, it gets bad again and this went on for 3 days. During this time I only took 2 doses, so I took 1/4 dose one day and then on the way back I took another 1/4 dose and things started to get better slowly. After that I decided to get off it for good because I was in a state of terror for 3 days straight. It took me a little bit but this time I tapered down, it took about a month and after I went off of it, the breathing problem seemed to get worse actually. In fact, I went to the hospital about a month or month and a half after my last dose. It didn't make sense.

What I don't understand is I went CT off the first time I went off and was Ok. Sure it was a little uncomfortable, but very bearable. This last time I went off and I tapered, it felt so horrible. I couldn't sleep, even taking both Ambien CR and Lunesta at the same time along with Seroquel. All that and I couldn't sleep.

Sorry for the length and I might have told you all this before, but I feel it very important. Oh and btw, I believe I said I went to ER once and they checked me and said everything was fine. Also, when I was off of it, there were times, 2 weeks has been the longest where I thought I was going to die and I felt this for many hours at a time. Sure it would get better at times but when it's bad, it's always there, so it's not like a couple hours later when I might feel a little better I start watching a comedy with my wife and have a good laugh. No, I just try to relax as much as possible but I mostly tried to sleep even though I couldn't. During these times I'd have heart palpitations and I thought I would have a heart attack. I'd get numbness in my hands, especially the few hours I did sleep, but I'd get that being fully awake too. I know these are classic panic attack symptoms but panic attacks can't last for hours, much less weeks. There's been so many times I felt that I had to kill myself for this to stop. I did try that back in 2000 and they told me I was so lucky because I shouldn't have survived that. I was told I took enough to kill 2 1/2 people.

OK, so down to my questions about what to do. Could my dosing be the reason for this because the manufacturer says it's made to be taking once a day, but I've seen or read that patients have been prescribed at least taking 2 doses a day. Is it possible that my body gets so saturated with it that it's just too much? Assuming I start taking it only once a day, that is the whole pill. Will I still feel the same effects as taking it in quarters? The reason I take it in quarters is because....well I do want to feel a little buzz. When it was working as it's supposed to, it was like a miracle drug. It had almost the same effect as Vicodin, but it wasn't dangerous for me like for my liver and kidneys and I wasn't high like I would be with Vicodin that I'd slur my words. The thing is, if I wasn't taking Subutex and took Vicodin, I'd get the same reaction, probably worse. The last day when I had my last dose when I tapered off, I got a week prescription of Methadone, thinking I could continue to taper using that, but as soon as I took that 5mg pill....well after a few minutes I started feeling my breathing getting worse again. Also, it almost always is better in the early morning from about 2 or 3 AM to 9 or 10AM. I have no idea why.

So I'm wondering if Zubsolv might work or Suboxone? I've read that Zubsolv has a higher bioavailability so it works better as your body absorbs more Buprenorphine vs Subutex or Suboxone but on a site it seems like more people than not don't like the Zubsolv as well, but also these people are also taking much more than I take. I've also tried taking more Subutex because a lot of people say I'm not taking enough and that's why this is happening, but I've tried that and it makes me much sicker doing it that way. Oh, I also take 1mg of Xanax 3 times a day to offset the side effects that seem to be coming from the Subutex. That worked really well at first, but it's not working as well as it used too. Still, it does seem to help a little.

I've gone through so much hell, I really wish I could get high like I did with the Vicodin, but I 'll settle for not being high at all, but having the Subutex work if I had to take it once a day as long as I could at least feel semi-normal.


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 3 posts ] 

All times are UTC - 5 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Our Sponsors
Suboxone Forum latest topics RSS feed Subscribe to the entire forum
cron
 

 

 
Fond Du Lac Psychiatry
Dr. Jeffrey Junig, M.D., Ph.D.

  • Board Certified Psychiatrist
  • Asst Clinical Professor, Medical College of Wisconsin

Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group