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PostPosted: Wed Feb 17, 2010 2:58 am 
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so, today i took the last 2mg (have been on 2mg a day, not skipping any days, for about 10 days now as im ready to stop my sub treatment after 1.5 yrs), BUT im not totally stoping now. i have to wait til i get paid (tomoro or maybe as long as 3-4 days) until i can afford to pay my DR for the Rx AND the subs at cvs, so im out til then.

but i have 4 tramadols/ultracets/ultrams that are the 37.5mg size (??), the long yellow ones that say 357 on them...

ive read that i need to wait a long time, 24 hrs at least, before i take the ultrams bc it either wont have an effect or (worse) will throw me into the withdrawls... i know ultram isnt a true opiate/narcotic whatever, but ive still read not to do it.

experiences? im hoping it will get me thru tonight, sleeping, and the next couple days.

also, if i have to wait 3-4 days to re-up my subox Rx, and i start to take the ultrams here and there, how long should i wait after my last ultram before i take my first sub? im most likely not going to take a full ultram when i do dose, and ill most likely be taking 4 mg of sub when i get my new Rx.

thanks from dallas tx!!!!!!!!!!

scw


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 17, 2010 11:37 am 
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Hi scotamiran -

Thanks for the question. There are some on the forum who are on suboxone to help get off ultram. While they never did anything for me, there are people who are affected by the medication.

Have you thought of a 'phone call' to your doctor? The reason I ask, it that you are in a dangerous spot to relapse without further taper. I believe your doctor would also know that.

I don't know if the doctor will work with you/your pharmacy to maybe spot you a few suboxone pills, but it seems worth a try.

In my opinion - if you use ultram to get through the gap (while I'm not judging) - you are doing exactly what you didn't want to do when going on suboxone. I feel bad for you in this tight spot - but I really wonder if there is some way to work a short term solution with your doctor/pharmacy until you get paid in the next day or two.

There is a stage where you will feel the effect of other opiate type medications. You are either at that point, or close - which spells DANGER to me. If you don't keep on your taper with your doctor's help - then you are self-medicating again - the very thing you probably wanted to avoid.

As for the withdrawal's from taking ultram (such as precipitated withdrawal) - You won't get those (opinion again). If you feel anything - it will be the ultram. When you get back on suboxone, though, if you are consistently on ultram or other opiate to hold out - you are back to the standard induction phase - waiting probably 24 hours, being in mild/moderate withdrawal.

I'm sorry for the ramblings if they don't help. You have zero options where you are at now to stay on your sub taper program. Why not try a call and explain this to the doc and see? If it goes nowhere - then you have lost nothing.

BEST OF LUCK! Please keep us posted, we care.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 17, 2010 12:41 pm 
Hi Scotamiran and welcome to the forum! I hope you will stick around here, post often and use the forum as part of your recovery program.
I agree with everything Lathedude has told you. Had you posted a day or two earlier, I think we might have recommended that you break that last little bit of Suboxone you had left into smaller pieces and taken just 1mg or a little less per day until you could get your Rx refilled. I feel like that would have been a better/safer option to hold you over, as opposed to potentially needing to use Ultram to get you through.
I wish you could have discussed this with your doctor before you ended up in this spot, but that's okay. I again agree with Ldude that you should try to get your doctor or his nurse/assistant on the phone, tell them what's happened and see if they'll spot you a couple of Sub until you're able to get back in.
As far as worries regarding taking Ultram while the Sub is still your system....you don't have anything to worry about in terms of anything horrible happening. As long as there is Sub on the opiate receptors in your brain, the Ultram will not be strong enough to displace the Sub. What that means, basically and to my understanding, is that the Ultram will do nothing for you or to you. If you've been on a low enough dose of Sub or off of it completely for long enough, you will get some effect from the Ultram...maybe not enough to feel 'high' or anything but perhaps enough to get some pain or withdrawal relief.
If you decide to use the Ultram for several days and then go back on Suboxone, you may need to essentially 'reinduce' onto Sub, which would mean waiting a period of time (as much as 24 hours) from your last dose of Ultram until restarting Suboxone.
Again, in agreement with what's already been said, I think it would be a mistake to turn to Ultram during this time frame. I feel that it would mean that you've taken a step backward after all the time you've spent moving forward in your recovery. By reintroducing yourself to the mood-altering type of medications, you may indeed be opening the door just enough to allow active addiction to bust right back through and kick your butt all over again. Obviously Ultram is somewhat more benign than say oxy or heroin, but there are many folks who have gotten severely addicted to just Ultram.....it's a chance I would hate to see you take.
I'm not a doctor or an expert, just someone like you who is trying to recover from opiate addiction. That's my take on your issue. I hope you're able to just hang in there until you can get back on your Suboxone and finish your taper. I think if you'll set your mind to it, seek some extra support, and dig deep into your recovery skills, you'll be able to make it through a couple of days without any Sub....the withdrawal from the relatively small amount of Sub you've been on should not get overwhelmingly bad for at least a few days. In my opinion, you need to get back on your Sub asap and finish out your taper...get as low as you can on it before making your final jump off....this seems to be the best recipe for long-term success!


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 17, 2010 2:56 pm 
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thanks for your helpful words, guys.

to reply, i can see where you are both coming from... in terms of having to provide a very generalized response to someone that you are not familiar with and do not know.

two things i can say for sure are: any amount of time i may be off sub in this possibly up to 5-day period, it still wont be enough to make me at all inclined to seek out any heroin. ive conquered that beast mentally, and not only that but ive never acquired opiates in the town im in now, i only ever copped about 200 miles away. 2ndly, im also not able or willing to seek out any more tramadol... i got 4 pills from a friend about 8 months ago, just kept them, and, knowing they were pain relief, thought they might help. but i have read a small bit online about how much of a terrible drug it is when it comes to addictive power and withdrawal severity, etc. so i wanted to get an extended answer from a place like this instead of just relying on 2 line answers from other sources just from google.

and as far as my dr is concerned, i really dont have much trust for him anymore when it comes to something like this. both my friend (whos not on subox anymore) and i have shared some experiences with him that have sort of tainted our view of him and i feel like coming to him with a story of "im out, and wont get paid for a few days... " will incur a response of basically being unsupporting and judgemental since i "clearly havent been financially responsible enough to continue with this program and its time for me to cut you off as a result." ie: cant pay me? cant pay you. peace. hes never been there for me, i havent actually SEEN HIM in like a year, everytime i go they have someone else who is even LESS interested in my progress to just give me a new Rx and barely say two words to me, which my "Dr" does little more than that himself. so even tho he may be understanding about it, i dont feel like it would be a beneficial exchange in the end. maybe im just glass half empty here... but my friend has some real horror stories when it comes to getting the short end of the stick with this guy...

i guess thats it for now. thanks for your help!

scotamiran


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 17, 2010 9:18 pm 
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Very short half life, I would say 4 pills wont be enough for 5 days, I lived on them for 3-4 yrs... After I was on 2 mg of sub for 2 months I took 2- 50mg tramadols( same as ultrams ) NOTHING happened, Tramadol is very weak, it is the entry level opiate, if you will !!! Get some suboxone ASAP, Mike


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 19, 2010 2:47 pm 
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I know this is an old thread, and I am going to post more about this later, but Suboxone and Tramadol do not have any affect on each other with regards to precipitated withdrawals. You can take them both together, one ofter the other in any order and it will never happen. The reason for this is probably because Tramadol acts on opiate receptors completely differently than normal opiates. Tramadol is not even classed as an opiate even though it causes an opiate like effect, and is addicting in the same way opiates are. I've tried this myself after reading other people's experiences. Tramadol can be used as a light pain killer while on Suboxone, it can also be used to ease Suboxone withdrawals. Of course it has a greater effect the less Suboxone you are on. The first time I took Tramadol I was on about 1mg of Suboxone a day. I also took Tramadol when I was stopping Suboxone and at a 2mg Suboxone per day dependency it took about 4 50mg Tramadol every 6 hours to completely alleviate Suboxone withdrawal symptoms. More on this later.

A thing that occurred to me after finding out about this is that I probably could have used Tramadol to ease my induction onto Suboxone, though at the level of Oxy I was taking at that time, I guess there is a chance I couldn't have taken enough Tramadol to make a difference.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 19, 2010 5:24 pm 
Tramadol acts on the mu opiate recepter, just like any other opiate. It is a "synthetic" opiate, and not a strong as some other opiates, but make no mistake, it is an opiate.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 15, 2010 9:47 am 
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The concept of AP is very interesting, and I want to study this experience, and maybe undergo it myself.

I'm pretty skeptical though, I think it's probably just imagination, hallucination, or lucid dreaming. Even so, people make it sound rather vivid, moreso than otherwise, so it would at the least require some order to the brain, and probably be a great source of happiness and inspiration (maybe for novels!)

If it does indeed involve leaving the body (OOB interacting with the world, or some 'astral realm') then there need to be ways of verifying this. OOB can use tests where live variables are predicted. Astral realms generally can't, but since some people talk about meeting other astral projectors, it can be tested using the same principles of telepathy, basically. Maybe that's all it would be, just mediation and telepathy with creative visuals?


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 15, 2010 11:58 am 
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i still take tramadol for menstrual cramps occasionally and have never had any problem- they work just the same for me as they did when i was not on subs!

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 27, 2010 8:42 am 
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I was prescribed this medicine for moderate pain after surgery. My incisions bothered me, and I took 4 pills a day for the first 3 days, then usually 2 a day. However, the side effects: nausea, palpitations, dizziness, drowsiness AND sleeplessness, constipation and mental vagueness were really too unpleasant to be rid of minor pain, so after a week I stopped taking it. It is annoying that after stopping it, I suffered nausea, palpitations, and weakness/drowsiness after large meals--possibly due to withdrawal.


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 17, 2010 5:29 am 
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Now, I'm confused. I am on high mg of subs for addiction to painkillers & chrnic pain mgmnt.

My sub Dr. told me to take 2 extra strength Tylenol every six hours pain or no pain. I asked him "what if that doesn't help my pain?" He said my next option was Ultram & subs.

Now, wait a minute before you start typing. If you know me, you know I hurt my leg. My surgeon perscribed Ultram 50 mg every 6 hrs because I had pain. To take it with my regular sub dosage which is 16 mg a.m. & 16mg. p.m. I feel fine. Pain is almost 0 and I don't feel wd symptoms or anything similar. This is my 4th. day taking it like that.

Now I'm confused. Is this a drs. mistake?


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