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PostPosted: Fri Dec 30, 2011 4:31 am 
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The link includes my entire long boring cold-turkey story but let me give you a quicker run-down below :http://suboxforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=5614


I've been on Sub 16mg/day for the past 3 years. I was forced to quit cold turkey the week before Christmas and I must say it was about as easy of a detox that anyone could wish for. 2-3 days after my last dose I experienced 4-5 days of being really lazy, emotional, bored, restless, bla bla bla but all very very tolerable and nothing that would ever make me scared of having to do it again. I didn't experience any non-stop freezing/sweating chills, legs jumping, back pain, chronic diarrhea, etc..

Usually withdrawals off Hydro or Oxy are brutal for me! I can literally stay on hydro or oxy for as little as a week and still have bad withdrawals for a few days. I am petrified of opiate withdrawal so I was literally in tears when my NAZI doctor kicked me to the door earlier this month..

I'm trying to figure out why it was so easy for me compared to others and these are some things I'm wondering about:

COULD IT HAVE BEEN BECAUSE

1.) Since I had 3 years of heavy Sub use, could enough bupe have been stored up in my body that it gradually left my body slow enough to where my body was recovering as fast as it was detoxing? Basically my fat cells slowly released enough bupe to keep me comfortable vs. the painful "jump" after a long taper method?
-comment- from reading this forum, it sorta seems like the folks who are on Sub for a short term(1 year or less) are having equally if not more severe withdrawals than many coming off of it long-term

2.) Could staying on SUB for a longer term (2+years) actually make getting off of it a bit easier?

3.) Could taking a high dosage like 16-24mg for an extended period of time in order to get alot of it stored up in your body in preparations for quitting be something to consider?
-comment- I've read where transmitters can only absorb like 4-6mg of bupe per day and that bupe is also stored up in your fat. In this case it seems like taking really high doses in the end to get lots of it stored up in your fat and gradually released while in detox would be something to think about


From my personal experience and what I've been reading, folks are struggling far far more trying to ween down, live on tiny amounts, taking tiny crumbs after they feel WD's, etc.. vs. folks having to quit long-term high doses cold turkey.

I haven't taken my dose of Sub since about the 19th of December and I still feel like I might have some Sub lingering in my system helping me get along. The reason why I think this is when I go #2, sometimes I get the usual painful Sub-turds and other times I get detoxed soft ones or diarrhea.

Having all that Sub stored up in my body is the only thing I can think of that would have made this so easy for me.

I know everybody is different but from reading tons of posts and horror stories about folks unsuccessfully trying to taper down over months or weeks by only supplying themselves minimal amounts over and over again doesn't seem like the best option. Plus, I'm an addict, trying to taper off of Sub is dang near as hard as not using a drug. I remember trying to taper down a couple years ago to conserve pills for a cross country move. Everytime something important came up, I had company, needed to meet with someone, etc... I justified taking more Sub vs. only what my body needed. Trying to taper is WAY harder than flat out quitting in my opinion.


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 30, 2011 12:53 pm 
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blueindian wrote:
The link includes my entire long boring cold-turkey story but let me give you a quicker run-down below :http://suboxforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=5614


I've been on Sub 16mg/day for the past 3 years. I was forced to quit cold turkey the week before Christmas and I must say it was about as easy of a detox that anyone could wish for. 2-3 days after my last dose I experienced 4-5 days of being really lazy, emotional, bored, restless, bla bla bla but all very very tolerable and nothing that would ever make me scared of having to do it again. I didn't experience any non-stop freezing/sweating chills, legs jumping, back pain, chronic diarrhea, etc..

Usually withdrawals off Hydro or Oxy are brutal for me! I can literally stay on hydro or oxy for as little as a week and still have bad withdrawals for a few days. I am petrified of opiate withdrawal so I was literally in tears when my NAZI doctor kicked me to the door earlier this month..

I'm trying to figure out why it was so easy for me compared to others and these are some things I'm wondering about:

COULD IT HAVE BEEN BECAUSE

1.) Since I had 3 years of heavy Sub use, could enough bupe have been stored up in my body that it gradually left my body slow enough to where my body was recovering as fast as it was detoxing? Basically my fat cells slowly released enough bupe to keep me comfortable vs. the painful "jump" after a long taper method?
-comment- from reading this forum, it sorta seems like the folks who are on Sub for a short term(1 year or less) are having equally if not more severe withdrawals than many coming off of it long-term

2.) Could staying on SUB for a longer term (2+years) actually make getting off of it a bit easier?

3.) Could taking a high dosage like 16-24mg for an extended period of time in order to get alot of it stored up in your body in preparations for quitting be something to consider?
-comment- I've read where transmitters can only absorb like 4-6mg of bupe per day and that bupe is also stored up in your fat. In this case it seems like taking really high doses in the end to get lots of it stored up in your fat and gradually released while in detox would be something to think about


From my personal experience and what I've been reading, folks are struggling far far more trying to ween down, live on tiny amounts, taking tiny crumbs after they feel WD's, etc.. vs. folks having to quit long-term high doses cold turkey.

I haven't taken my dose of Sub since about the 19th of December and I still feel like I might have some Sub lingering in my system helping me get along. The reason why I think this is when I go #2, sometimes I get the usual painful Sub-turds and other times I get detoxed soft ones or diarrhea.

Having all that Sub stored up in my body is the only thing I can think of that would have made this so easy for me.

I know everybody is different but from reading tons of posts and horror stories about folks unsuccessfully trying to taper down over months or weeks by only supplying themselves minimal amounts over and over again doesn't seem like the best option. Plus, I'm an addict, trying to taper off of Sub is dang near as hard as not using a drug. I remember trying to taper down a couple years ago to conserve pills for a cross country move. Everytime something important came up, I had company, needed to meet with someone, etc... I justified taking more Sub vs. only what my body needed. Trying to taper is WAY harder than flat out quitting in my opinion.


LOL! I'm laughing because I spent sooooo long tapering, like you said, to tiny, tiny amounts. If it would have been easier to just jump, then.....oh man, lol

I think some people do have an easier time just jumping. Maybe you are one of these people or maybe you are just really tough. I figure that people can try to just jump and see if they can do it. I would not wait to run out of Sub before trying that route though. If a high jump does not work, then tapering is always there as the next option. For me, if I had not tried just jumping off, I would not have had the discipline to taper.

I'm interested in seeing how you continue to feel. I'm thinking most of the Sub must be out of your system by now, but I'm not sure.

laddertipper

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 Post subject: Wow Unexplainable.
PostPosted: Fri Dec 30, 2011 1:15 pm 
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[font=Courier New] [/font] I have no Idea, but consider yourself very lucky. It's almost like the best Christmas present I have heard about. I would have been so panicked that I would have had terrible diarrhea and sweats/chills etc...From the panic alone. I am interested in what your next move is. Do you have a relapse prevention plan going on? Are you considering finding a new doc? Just wondering. I sometimes work myself up into a panic when I realize that at anytime these docs can just decide to yank it all up and we can be left in situations like yours. The way I look at it is we are addicts and if we mess up every once in a while it's because the mentality is still there even if the "cravings are under arrest by the bupe and/or done. I think the only way a doctor should kick us out etc...Is if they have offered comprehensive therapy to include relapse prevention and then seen we just are not investing ourselves in our treatment. Just giving us a medicine that controls cravings and withdrawals alone does not help us at all when and if they kick us to the curb. Why these doctors are so shocked, pissed or wanting to punish us for behaving like addicts is when they are not treating the behaviors or causes should be up for examination to some type of board review etc… They are treating the symptoms. (It’s kind of like cough syrup instead of antibiotics for bacterial flu) Cravings and/or withdrawals are symptoms/side effects of a much larger issue called addiction.
If they want to be considered addictionologist, then they should be accountable for their treatment administered to their clients. Do doctors normally kick clients to the curb that are diabetics because they eat too much sugar? Or Cardiologist kicks patients out because they smoke? If they did and these clients die because they cannot get their medications are they liable? They should be. And…to a degree, I am sure they are liable. Now I know there has to be a line drawn somewhere in the sand so as to a client cannot get their medications and continue to use illicit drugs, but that is why they should offer any and all services to help arrest the disease and then when the client still continues to behave like an addict, then their efforts (the doctors) have been made and the client is now accountable. I am sure some will disagree and I admit this is just my opinion.
I am not so sure about Bupe doctors as I have been on bupe but it was years ago and it was the subutex form and it was in a detox setting several times. I used it not as maintenance so to say, but with methadone if you continually use they usually don’t kick you to the curb they do not let you take the advantages of level changes and/or take homes etc…
I am not sure as to why your doctor kicked you to the curb and maybe that link you provide above will say why, but I can almost for sure say that the doctor had not offered you all the services he should have to include relapse prevention and by kicking you out, he shows his lack of commitment to his clients as what if you would have suffered dearly? What if you in a day’s time etc…are lying dead in a shooting gallery somewhere? Was whatever you did so badly to deserve that? Someone somewhere and sometime soon needs to find that line in the sand and set up some accountability for these doctors that play GOD. Thank You for letting me vent my thoughts and feelings on your post. I hope I have not deflected the original post and/or your subject matter or post will still be responded to in the manner best fit for your needs. I am sorry this has happened to you and I hope you have a plan. We cannot depend on these doctors to always do what’s best so we need a plan.

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 Post subject: Re: Wow Unexplainable.
PostPosted: Sat Dec 31, 2011 5:08 am 
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finallyachance wrote:
[font=Courier New] [/font] I have no Idea, but consider yourself very lucky. It's almost like the best Christmas present I have heard about. YEAH TELL ME ABOUT IT! I would have been so panicked that I would have had terrible diarrhea and sweats/chills etc...From the panic alone. TRUST ME I WAS I am interested in what your next move is. RIGHT NOW I'M JUST TAKING IT DAY BY DAY. I DON'T HAVE ANY DRUG CONNECTIONS BECAUSE I'VE BEEN CLEAN FOR 3 YEARS SO THAT HELPS FOR NOW Do you have a relapse prevention plan going on?[color=Font Color] I HAVE NO PLAN. EVERYTHING IN ME TELLS ME ILL EVENTUALLY BE BACK ON PAIN PILLS SOONER OR LATER. I'M JUST BEING HONEST. I HAD PLANS OF JUST STAYING ON SUB FOR AN EXTENSIVE PERIOD BECAUSE IT WORKS PERFECTLY FOR ME BUT THAT DOESN'T SEEM TO BE AN OPTION. Are you considering finding a new doc? I WOULD DEFINITELY GO BACK ON SUB TOMORROW BUT I HAVE NO INSURANCE AND I CAN'T AFFORD MORE THAN ABOUT $250/MONTH. I HOPE TO FIND A DOCTOR INSTEAD OF A NAZI CLINIC THAT TREATS ME LIKE A CRIMINAL AND BASICALLY TELLS ME TO COMPLY OR DIE Just wondering. I sometimes work myself up into a panic when I realize that at anytime these docs can just decide to yank it all up and we can be left in situations like yours. I'M THE SAME WAY. PART OF ME FEELS SO RELIEVED I DON'T HAVE TO SWALLOW MY PRIDE AND LIVE AT THE MERCY OF AN ASSHOLE DOCTOR. I HONESTLY HAVE LIVED THE LAST 3 YEARS IN CONSTANT FEAR OF EXACTLY WHAT HAPPENED. The way I look at it is we are addicts and if we mess up every once in a while it's because the mentality is still there even if the "cravings are under arrest by the bupe and/or done. EXACTLY AND IT DRIVES ME INSANE WITH THE WAY THIS MEDICATION IS HANDLED. I TRIED TO EXPLAIN THIS TO MY DOCTOR AND I DIDN'T GET ANYWHERE. I ASKED HIM IF A HUGE FAT PERSON CAME TO HIM BECAUSE THEY WERE KILLING THEMSELVES FROM EATING CAKE, WOULD HE TELL THEM THAT FROM THAT DAY FORWARD IF THEY EVER ATE CAKE AGAIN THAN THEY WOULD BE REFUSED THE MEDS TO KEEP THEM ALIVE? WOULD HE MONITOR THEM AND AS SOON AS HE SUSPECTED THEY ATE SOME CAKE, BASICALLY TELL THEM TO GO DIE!! I think the only way a doctor should kick us out etc...Is if they have offered comprehensive therapy to include relapse prevention and then seen we just are not investing ourselves in our treatment. EXACTLY, THE FEAR THESE STUPID "COMPLY OR DIE" DOCTORS FORCE ON PATIENTS KEEPS ADDICTS IN CONSTANT FEAR AND PANIC AND IT'S SIMPLY NOT HEALTHY. IT'S NOT RIGHT!!! Just giving us a medicine that controls cravings and withdrawals alone does not help us at all when and if they kick us to the curb. Why these doctors are so shocked, pissed or wanting to punish us for behaving like addicts is when they are not treating the behaviors or causes should be up for examination to some type of board review etc… They are treating the symptoms. (It’s kind of like cough syrup instead of antibiotics for bacterial flu) Cravings and/or withdrawals are symptoms/side effects of a much larger issue called addiction.
If they want to be considered addictionologist, then they should be accountable for their treatment administered to their clients. Do doctors normally kick clients to the curb that are diabetics because they eat too much sugar? Or Cardiologist kicks patients out because they smoke? If they did and these clients die because they cannot get their medications are they liable? They should be. And…to a degree, I am sure they are liable. YEP BUT UNFORTUNATELY THE DISEASE OF ADDICTION ALSO INCLUDES BEING A CRIMINAL WHO SHOULD HAVE TO PAY OUT THE ASS AND COMPLY OR DIE. Now I know there has to be a line drawn somewhere in the sand so as to a client cannot get their medications and continue to use illicit drugs, but that is why they should offer any and all services to help arrest the disease and then when the client still continues to behave like an addict, then their efforts (the doctors) have been made and the client is now accountable. I am sure some will disagree and I admit this is just my opinion. I AGREE 100%!!! I'M GLAD I'M NOT THE ONLY ONE PISSED OFF ABOUT THIS STUFF. SOMETHING HAS GOTTA CHANGE..
I am not so sure about Bupe doctors as I have been on bupe but it was years ago and it was the subutex form and it was in a detox setting several times. I used it not as maintenance so to say, but with methadone if you continually use they usually don’t kick you to the curb they do not let you take the advantages of level changes and/or take homes etc…
I am not sure as to why your doctor kicked you to the curb and maybe that link you provide above will say why, but I can almost for sure say that the doctor had not offered you all the services he should have to include relapse prevention and by kicking you out, he shows his lack of commitment to his clients as what if you would have suffered dearly? I WAS KICKED OUT BECAUSE I DIDN'T ATTEND WEEKLY PHYSIOTHERAPY COUNSELING SESSIONS. I'VE BEEN CLEAN AND SOBER FOR 3 YEARS AND DID CLASSES TO THE POINT OF THEM BEING A WASTE OF MY TIME. IN THE LAST 3 YEARS I FINISHED MY DEGREE AND STARTED A GREAT BUSINESS FOR MYSELF. THE MEDICATION AND INITIAL TREATMENT HELPED ME TO RETURN TO A HEALTHY, PRODUCTIVE, TAX PAYING CITIZEN WHICH IS THE ULTIMATE RESULT OF A TREATMENT PROGRAM. 2.5 YEARS INTO MY TREATMENT THEY STARTED REQUIRING WEEKLY CLASSES. THE DOCTOR IS AN HOUR FROM MY HOUSE AND I WAS HAVING TO TAKE OFF 1 DAY A WEEK TO GO THROUGH THE FIASCO OF GETTING MY WEEKS REFILL. I COULD NEVER SCHEDULE THE COUNSELOR AND DOCTORS APPOINTMENT ON THE SAME DAY AND IT'S SIMPLY NOT POSSIBLE FOR ME TO RUN A BUSINESS AND NOT WORK 2/5 AFTERNOONS OF THE WEEK. AFTER MISSING ABOUT 3 RANDOM WEEKS OF NO COUNSELING, I SHOWED UP TO BE TOLD I WAS NON-COMPLIANT WITH TREATMENT REQUIREMENTS. I WAS LITERALLY IN TEARS SAYING I WAS GONNA END UP IN THE EMERGENCY ROOM AND HE RESPONDED, "UNFORTUNATELY THAT'S YOUR BEST OPTION" I JUST WALKED OUT BEFORE I CHOKED THE LIVING SHIT OUT OF HIM. TALK ABOUT RUINING MY HOLIDAYS!! What if you in a day’s time etc…are lying dead in a shooting gallery somewhere? Was whatever you did so badly to deserve that? Someone somewhere and sometime soon needs to find that line in the sand and set up some accountability for these doctors that play GOD. I BELIEVE I'D BE WILLING TO FLY TO WASHINGTON AND PROTEST IF I ACTUALLY THOUGHT IT WOULD HELP Thank You for letting me vent my thoughts and feelings on your post. NO WORRIES! WE FEEL EXACTLY THE SAME I hope I have not deflected the original post and/or your subject matter or post will still be responded to in the manner best fit for your needs. I am sorry this has happened to you and I hope you have a plan. THANKS FOR YOUR KIND WORDS. HOPEFULLY DOORS WILL OPEN AS I GO FORWARD. WE CAN ONLY HOPE SINCE WE ARE CRIMINALS. BEST OF LUCK TO YOU AS WELL. I PLAN ON STICKING AROUND FOR A WHILE SO I'LL KEEP YOU UPDATED We cannot depend on these doctors to always do what’s best so we need a plan.
[color=Font Color] [/color][color=Font Color] [/color][color=Font Color] [/color][color=Font Color] [/color][color=Font Color] [/color][color=Font Color] [/color][color=Font Color] [/color][color=Font Color] [/color][color=Font Color] [/color][color=Font Color] [/color][color=Font Color] [/color]


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 31, 2011 10:10 am 
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sounds pretty good blueindian'. so you had it a little easy'r than most, and it's your opinion.
i don't know about the other person? but it sounds like his post would be more useful in a prison setting" and not on the forum.
good luck. and i hope i can come off as easy as you did.


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 31, 2011 11:21 am 
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johnboy wrote:
sounds pretty good blueindian'. so you had it a little easy'r than most, and it's your opinion.
i don't know about the other person? but it sounds like his post would be more useful in a prison setting" and not on the forum.
good luck. and i hope i can come off as easy as you did.


Hello Johnboy I am sorry but are you talking about the post above yours? This is where blueindian took my post (everything I had said is in black) and she answered the things I had ask in my post (his/her answers are in red) So maybe you not realizing that and reading it without that knowledge made it complicated because in no ways is it from a prison setting nor is it a bad post. We both were speaking of our distaste for doctors who kick u to the curb, having to go through withdrawals on your own etc, all because he/she failed to attend weekly meetings at his/her clinic. Sorry for the confusion
BLUEINDIAN-One more question is this a bupe doctor/clinic or a done doctor/clinic? The reason I ask is....you said you can only afford $250 a month and that sounds more like done pricing. If not have you thought about doing done or if by chance you do relapse maybe u might could consider done. I know it takes some time to build up to weekly or bi-weekly take homes but I just want you to try to have a plan on standby at least so any relapse can be curtailed as you gained a lot in 2.5 or 3 years of whatever you’ve been doing and it would be a shame to lose it all cause some jerk off doctor does not see addiction as a life or death situation. Which I am giving him the benefit of the doubt that he must not realize that you could die with this disease. SOB EFFIN ASSHOLE. I am pissed off as hell about it. Have you thought about doing grievances through maybe any governing agency he is accountable to? Like even the State Medical Board? In our methadone community we have some advocates that take out case up and try to help us vindicate ourselves for the lack of a better word.
http://www.aatod.org/ THIS IS A LINK TO America Association for Treatment for Opoid Dependence
http://dpt2.samhsa.gov/regulations/smalist.aspx THIS IS A LINK TO State Opioid Treatment Authorities who deal w/grievance
http://www.dpt.samhsa.gov/index.aspx THIS IS A LINK TO SAMSHA which all opoid facilities have to be accountable to
On the Samsha site you can find any doctors contact info that offers methadone or suboxone services too. I know a few methadone advocates
Chris Kelly you can find her on a.t.watchdog.com another forum I frequent she can tell you what avenues to take to file grievances. Doctors and clinics hare grievances as it can put them in the eye of scrutiny with agencies/boards etc....
http://www.methadone.org/library/bupren ... _info.html This link is NAMA which was/is an agency that is a total advocacy agency for methadone patients it is now also used for advocacy with suboxone and these guys do GO TO WASHINGTON etc...To LOBBY on the front lawn etc...The page I linked for you is the Bupe page because for some reason I want to think you are a bupe client not methadone but here's the home site link too you can navigate accordingly http://www.methadone.org/library/what_is_nama.html
NAMA's Goals
To eliminate discrimination toward methadone/bupe patients
To create a more positive image about methadone/bupe maintenance treatment
To help preserve patients' dignity and their rights
To make treatment available on demand to every person who needs it
To empower methadone/bupe patients with a strong public voice
Maybe you are going to throw yourself into your business and stay busy and leave it alone and of course I by no means am pushing you to do anything. I just want to give you some info and resources in case you need them and/or someone else reading this post needs them too. Please do keep us updated and of course stay involved on this forum to help others too. Just the very action/idea of having a "community" can be therapeutic for all involved. Good Luck my friend and keep your recovery upfront and foremost.

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 Post subject: Re: Wow Unexplainable.
PostPosted: Sat Dec 31, 2011 11:54 am 
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finallyachance wrote:
[font=Courier New] [/font] I have no Idea, but consider yourself very lucky. It's almost like the best Christmas present I have heard about. I would have been so panicked that I would have had terrible diarrhea and sweats/chills etc...From the panic alone. I am interested in what your next move is. Do you have a relapse prevention plan going on? Are you considering finding a new doc? Just wondering. I sometimes work myself up into a panic when I realize that at anytime these docs can just decide to yank it all up and we can be left in situations like yours. The way I look at it is we are addicts and if we mess up every once in a while it's because the mentality is still there even if the "cravings are under arrest by the bupe and/or done. I think the only way a doctor should kick us out etc...Is if they have offered comprehensive therapy to include relapse prevention and then seen we just are not investing ourselves in our treatment. Just giving us a medicine that controls cravings and withdrawals alone does not help us at all when and if they kick us to the curb. Why these doctors are so shocked, pissed or wanting to punish us for behaving like addicts is when they are not treating the behaviors or causes should be up for examination to some type of board review etc… They are treating the symptoms. (It’s kind of like cough syrup instead of antibiotics for bacterial flu) Cravings and/or withdrawals are symptoms/side effects of a much larger issue called addiction.
If they want to be considered addictionologist, then they should be accountable for their treatment administered to their clients. Do doctors normally kick clients to the curb that are diabetics because they eat too much sugar? Or Cardiologist kicks patients out because they smoke? If they did and these clients die because they cannot get their medications are they liable? They should be. And…to a degree, I am sure they are liable. Now I know there has to be a line drawn somewhere in the sand so as to a client cannot get their medications and continue to use illicit drugs, but that is why they should offer any and all services to help arrest the disease and then when the client still continues to behave like an addict, then their efforts (the doctors) have been made and the client is now accountable. I am sure some will disagree and I admit this is just my opinion.
I am not so sure about Bupe doctors as I have been on bupe but it was years ago and it was the subutex form and it was in a detox setting several times. I used it not as maintenance so to say, but with methadone if you continually use they usually don’t kick you to the curb they do not let you take the advantages of level changes and/or take homes etc…
I am not sure as to why your doctor kicked you to the curb and maybe that link you provide above will say why, but I can almost for sure say that the doctor had not offered you all the services he should have to include relapse prevention and by kicking you out, he shows his lack of commitment to his clients as what if you would have suffered dearly? What if you in a day’s time etc…are lying dead in a shooting gallery somewhere? Was whatever you did so badly to deserve that? Someone somewhere and sometime soon needs to find that line in the sand and set up some accountability for these doctors that play GOD. Thank You for letting me vent my thoughts and feelings on your post. I hope I have not deflected the original post and/or your subject matter or post will still be responded to in the manner best fit for your needs. I am sorry this has happened to you and I hope you have a plan. We cannot depend on these doctors to always do what’s best so we need a plan.


Finallyachance, I have had precisely the same thoughts as you. Supposedly, addiction is a disease (which I believe it is) and these doctors are treating the disease of addiction. In treating any disease, there are no certainties. What about diabetics who don't follow the prescribed diet, check their sugars as they should, or take their insulin as they should? What if their diabetes worsens because of those choices? Are they cut off their medications? I don't think so and have never heard of it. What if a cancer patient does not follow their doctor's directions? What if they skip chemo sessions? What if they have lung cancer and don't stop smoking? Are they going to be cut off treatment? I don't think so.

I think if addiction is to be seen as a disease, it needs to be given the same respect as other diseases and the person being treated should be given the respect that people with other disease are given. If an addict slips up, is that not a symptom of the disease? It's ridiculous to tell someone they have a deadly disease and to give them a medication like Suboxone to treat it, but if that person doesn't follow the precise treatment plan, the doctor can turn their back and walk away, regardless of how precarious a situation that puts the patient in. How can any doctor not worry terribly about a patient who they suddenly cut off Sub treatment, knowing how hard it can be to find another doctor. I really don't get this aspect of Suboxone treatment and I hope at some point, this huge gap is addressed and remedied. People should not be afraid that they will be abandoned because they slip up. For anyone dependent on Suboxone, it's a scary situation to be in.

laddertipper

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 Post subject: BlueIndian
PostPosted: Sun Jan 01, 2012 3:57 pm 
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Hi blueindian

I sent you a note asking about your krotam use as you mentioned in your original post on 12/27. It sounds as if you started using that on about your 5th day. Do you think it may have had something to do with your mild withdrawal?


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 Post subject: kratom
PostPosted: Sun Jan 01, 2012 4:25 pm 
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Sorry, in my question to blueindian, I meant kratom. Also, has anyone else here used kratom for suboxone withdrawal?


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 02, 2012 1:03 am 
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Hello!

Kratom is a miracle herb. There is so much junk on the internet of people calling Kratom a legal high and saying not for human consumption. This destroys the legitimacy of our herb and endangers it when classified as such.

Kratom works for SO MANY people for pain, to get off opiates, and to get off methadone, suboxone etc.

It is absolutely a miracle and cannot be underestimated. SO MANY people always say they wish they would have known about Kratom so long ago when trying to kick pills, or getting off methadone, suboxone etc. It is also only as addictive as caffiene, so stopping Kratom is a piece of cake. It TRULY helps people kick opiates.

For more information about Kratom Therapy check out www dot KratomTherapy dot com or Errowid

Please contact us with any questions at any time!

Thank you!


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 02, 2012 2:31 am 
I used to ponder whether or not addiction was a disease.

Then I started dating a girl with systemic lupus and scleroderma.

I do not feel comfortable looking her in the eye while I whine about having a disease. The obvious difference is that through willpower we can overcome our use. We here are doing it every day. Nothing she does can stop her diseases from progressing.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 02, 2012 2:54 am 
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Yeah I sometimes struggle with the disease idea as well... but that's just me, because I used it as an excuse for my behaviour for so long.

Blueindian, I'd say you were just quite lucky in the draw! I've jumped off 6-8mg's before, and both times I had shocking withdrawals that were... up there with my worse heroin detoxes, but for 2 weeks.

Just further evidence that buprenorphine detox is more unpredictable than the straight up agonists.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 02, 2012 4:28 pm 
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I don't agree at all, Ironic, with your idea that we can stop with 'will power'-- I've known far too many people who are as strong-willed as anyone, who had no ability to stop using.

As for your disease analogy, almost every disease has a voluntary component. Even lupus and scleroderma can have a range of effects on a person, depending on how well that person keeps up on exercise and good diet. Diabetes? Most cases of Type II are aggravated by weight and diet. Emphysema and lung cancer? Smoking, of course. Arthritis, hypertension, chronic pain, heart disease, and more are aggravated, if not caused, by obesity.H

Then there are the 'mental illnesses'-- depression, anxiety, etc-- some people take your stigma about addiction and apply to ANY mental illness.

Having a disease called addiction doesn't excuse behavior; it necessitates behavior. It is BECAUSE someone has that disease that the person MUST keep it treated, MUST avoid certain behaviors and certain people, MUST stay honest, etc.

If a person intends to stay off Suboxone and opioids, I always recommend that above all, one must remember our absence of will power-- which is why we cannot use, even once. If I HAD will power, why not use? Heck I'll just stop tomorrow!

On the point of the thread...

I've had several patients stop Suboxone and have no withdrawal at all. I have no idea why it was, but they were very grateful! I don't think it is related to having buprenorphine in the body that slowly leeches out; things just don't get trapped in the body that way, except for some elements or simple molecules that are deposited in bones. I do think it is easier to stop after being on it longer; there is less psychological drama and more insight, usually, with people who are further away from actively using.

Can't speak to Kratom-- no direct knowledge of what it does.

Happy New Year, everyone!


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 02, 2012 4:58 pm 
suboxdoc wrote:
I don't agree at all, Ironic, with your idea that we can stop with 'will power'-- I've known far too many people who are as strong-willed as anyone, who had no ability to stop using.

As for your disease analogy, almost every disease has a voluntary component. Even lupus and scleroderma can have a range of effects on a person, depending on how well that person keeps up on exercise and good diet. Diabetes? Most cases of Type II are aggravated by weight and diet. Emphysema and lung cancer? Smoking, of course. Arthritis, hypertension, chronic pain, heart disease, and more are aggravated, if not caused, by obesity.H



Comparing lupus or scleroderma to lung cancer caused by smoking or type II diabetes caused by bad diet and sedentary lifestyle is an unsettling, bad comparison. My girlfriend doesn't smoke and isn't overweight. She used to exercise daily until vigorous exercise became so painful.

You mentioned that "almost every disease has a voluntary component" but failed to mention the voluntary components in
scleroderma and lupus. Diet and exercise are great for diabetes II, but my girlfriend cannot stop her diseases from progressing through these means alone.

All I have to do to stop my "disease" from progressing is not meet the corner boy for a bundle anymore. My girlfriend has to take lots of medications with painful side effects, and yet no matter how much she prays, or goes to a support group, or abstains from some activity, her disease progresses.

Sometimes it's hard, and I kick and scream and cry, but my "disease" cannot call a cab and push me into it and forcibly bring me to the dealers house. Unfortunately, no matter what my girlfriend consciously does, her condition will continue to (hopefully slowly) deteriorate.

Nope. Not the same thing.

Edit to add: Addiction is the only disease ever voted into existence by the AMA with a "show of hands" vote.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 02, 2012 7:10 pm 
Gday Ironic, I can understand how you feel about your girlfriends terrible afflictions being in a totally different “category” than your own addiction problems, but the bottom line is that drug addiction takes tens of thousands of lives annually and destroys millions of lives.
My wife suffers from anorexia/bulimia, she has been hospitalised numerous times, seen countless therapists psychologists etc. to no avail. It would be very easy to think, “why doesn’t she just eat then all her problems would be over”, but it just isn’t that simple, the reason being.. It’s a very complex psychiatric disorder, a disease.
Same goes with Drug and Alcohol Addiction, it’s a very very serious disease, mental illness, call it what you like, it doesn’t really matter, that destroys lives.
Ps Iv’e been on Suboxone for 6 weeks now after having a 400mg oxy habit, it’s a god send. I’m now more able to care and support my wife instead of just being a burden on her.
All the best to you and your girl
Subie


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 2012 5:12 am 
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KratomTherapy wrote:
Hello!

Kratom is a miracle herb. There is so much junk on the internet of people calling Kratom a legal high and saying not for human consumption. This destroys the legitimacy of our herb and endangers it when classified as such.

Kratom works for SO MANY people for pain, to get off opiates, and to get off methadone, suboxone etc.

It is absolutely a miracle and cannot be underestimated. SO MANY people always say they wish they would have known about Kratom so long ago when trying to kick pills, or getting off methadone, suboxone etc. It is also only as addictive as caffiene, so stopping Kratom is a piece of cake. It TRULY helps people kick opiates.

For more information about Kratom Therapy check out www dot KratomTherapy dot com or Errowid

Please contact us with any questions at any time!

Thank you!


If it's such a miricile why are so many people struggling to get off kratom? why are so many claiming how bad it is to be on kratom? anything which gives you a buzz or takes withdrawals away is potent stuff and you have to play the piper.. I did kratom myself and I disliked it, it gave me terrible awful withdrawals and bad depression. I also know couple of people who used the kratom route to get off suboxon only to be dependent/addicted on kratom and claimed the withdrawals were hell to get off. I think promoters should not be allowed here or shills, they give misinformation and are dangerous.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 2012 5:17 am 
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blueindian wrote:
The link includes my entire long boring cold-turkey story but let me give you a quicker run-down below :http://suboxforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=5614


I've been on Sub 16mg/day for the past 3 years. I was forced to quit cold turkey the week before Christmas and I must say it was about as easy of a detox that anyone could wish for. 2-3 days after my last dose I experienced 4-5 days of being really lazy, emotional, bored, restless, bla bla bla but all very very tolerable and nothing that would ever make me scared of having to do it again. I didn't experience any non-stop freezing/sweating chills, legs jumping, back pain, chronic diarrhea, etc..

Usually withdrawals off Hydro or Oxy are brutal for me! I can literally stay on hydro or oxy for as little as a week and still have bad withdrawals for a few days. I am petrified of opiate withdrawal so I was literally in tears when my NAZI doctor kicked me to the door earlier this month..

I'm trying to figure out why it was so easy for me compared to others and these are some things I'm wondering about:

COULD IT HAVE BEEN BECAUSE

1.) Since I had 3 years of heavy Sub use, could enough bupe have been stored up in my body that it gradually left my body slow enough to where my body was recovering as fast as it was detoxing? Basically my fat cells slowly released enough bupe to keep me comfortable vs. the painful "jump" after a long taper method?
-comment- from reading this forum, it sorta seems like the folks who are on Sub for a short term(1 year or less) are having equally if not more severe withdrawals than many coming off of it long-term

2.) Could staying on SUB for a longer term (2+years) actually make getting off of it a bit easier?

3.) Could taking a high dosage like 16-24mg for an extended period of time in order to get alot of it stored up in your body in preparations for quitting be something to consider?
-comment- I've read where transmitters can only absorb like 4-6mg of bupe per day and that bupe is also stored up in your fat. In this case it seems like taking really high doses in the end to get lots of it stored up in your fat and gradually released while in detox would be something to think about


From my personal experience and what I've been reading, folks are struggling far far more trying to ween down, live on tiny amounts, taking tiny crumbs after they feel WD's, etc.. vs. folks having to quit long-term high doses cold turkey.

I haven't taken my dose of Sub since about the 19th of December and I still feel like I might have some Sub lingering in my system helping me get along. The reason why I think this is when I go #2, sometimes I get the usual painful Sub-turds and other times I get detoxed soft ones or diarrhea.

Having all that Sub stored up in my body is the only thing I can think of that would have made this so easy for me.

I know everybody is different but from reading tons of posts and horror stories about folks unsuccessfully trying to taper down over months or weeks by only supplying themselves minimal amounts over and over again doesn't seem like the best option. Plus, I'm an addict, trying to taper off of Sub is dang near as hard as not using a drug. I remember trying to taper down a couple years ago to conserve pills for a cross country move. Everytime something important came up, I had company, needed to meet with someone, etc... I justified taking more Sub vs. only what my body needed. Trying to taper is WAY harder than flat out quitting in my opinion.



Am very vary of this. I know 3 people who jumped from 32mg, 16mg and 6mg and suffered through hell. One of the guy who jumped from 32mg needed ER treatment, one stopped breathing...I personally believe its insane to jump off this dose espeacially if one has been on it for several months and over.

If you let your body taper off then you are still withdrawing, when you're withdrawing you will inevitably experience symptoms. How can anybody cope with 32mgs of buprenorphine withdrawals is beyond me. Nobody is that speacial to miss out the withdrawals and be lucky by jumping from 32mgs, if anything it's very dangerous. Don't forget your body is tapering without consuming any more dose of bup so that means whatever is coming out of your body is withdrawals and you will feel them..Any opiod which comes out of your body you're bound to feel the affects and symptoms, so 32mg coming out slowly or quick it doesn't matter you would still feel the dose come out, and when you feel it you feel symptoms, in my opinion thats simple pshysics.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2012 6:43 am 
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hellow finally- '. i over looked a little oop's.your stuff is true and understanding". Dr. junig". and they can take the stigma about mental illness and apply it to addiction and slam dunk they go. how do doc's go about treating a mental illness and then tappering the mentally ill off suboxone wile there on all those antidepress/anti/moodswing/ acute-. and also the addiction can
cause mentally ill like symptoms. the person is going through paws and needs a antidepress or mood pill' wile the paws is over running the mental illness . so do you think the phsyic meds could over run the paws a little? :( :? :o :lol:


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2012 11:26 pm 
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On the topic of addiction being a dieases am totally against that. I have personally met people who have come off years of opiate abuse and been clean till this day for several years.

I do believe WILL POWER is the only help we can use together with meetings and moral support. People have done amazing things with will power. Nobody points a RPG to our heads to be an addict. There was a woman who do heroin and methadone for 8 years but when she got pregnant she stopped there and then, the determination to be a good mother and to get off opiates/drugs for the benifit of your baby goes a long away, she claimed she used WILL-POWER and it worked for her. Another situation where a guy who's mother died because of stress that her son was a junkie and heroin , oxy, vic addict and when he realised his mother died because of him then also stopped there and then and has been clean for several years. The point is how we think and what we CHOOSE does have a bearing to some sort..Its is POSSIBLE to stop being a addict. Its WILL POWER in my honest humble opinion which can makes us clean. People have gone to the moon, people have survived wars, people have gone through and survived illnesses, humans have done remarkle things worse then addiction and have come through the other side with WILL-POWER..I know somebody who use to use drugs for 13 years until his folks kicked him out of the house, he too stopped drugs because he needed food and water to survive, you can surive without opiates and drugs but cannot suvrive without food, water and oxygen.

I believe some people cannot quit as they are too selfish, they enjoy the high and have a selfish trait who do not think about their loved ones nor their self respect, they dont need help they need a kick up the back side. tough love in other words. Its not a diease, its not like diabites nor HIV or other illnesses as such, you cannot surive if you stop taking cancer, HIV, diaabtes etc meds but can survive if you dont take opiates/drugs to carry on with your addiction...Some people need an excuse such as "oh addiction is a dieases" to carry on doing drugs and leading a junkie lifestyle., some are just plain bitter that they cannot get sober while other humans are clean, married with childre who have a decent career and dollars in the bank, so they loath themselves and continue to do drugs/opiates to hide from realty, and they have it at the bank of their mind they are addicts which is a diease,, this is dangerous in my eyes because it makes folks lose hope of any recovery, if people know its possible to get clean and its WILL-POWER they need the most then it can give them hope together with being given tough love and a kick up the bad side, if they know its a diease they will lose more confidence and will stop their recovery...Hell I know several people who use pain killers with opiates in them for medicinal purposes even when they were addicts for several years, they all claim they have no cravings and its WILL-POWER together with changing yourself as a person, your mentallity, your attitude and thinking.. Am sorry but I only believe weak people who CHOOSE to be selfish and weak will say they are addicts for life and it's a dieases, otherwise why can some people quit and CHOOSE NOT TO DO drugs/opiates...When something happens in their life such as a family member death or similar then all the addiction can go out of the window, when they need to survive in life then addictio/opiates/drugs go out of the window.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2012 11:27 pm 
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Its just like in other situations where some people choose to be weak and selfish that they can't resist temption yet others can. A mother should always be a mother and many have quit substances when they have become mothers yet few unlady like women continue to put themselves and their babies at risk, both are humans yet some CHOOSE to throw away the junkie life yet others do not.. If your a selfish person then that chracter will always bring you down albeit addiction or anything else...

Now for substanced such as suboxone/subutex is a different ball game, the PAWS, depression and withdrawals is what can make people relapse.. Even with will power in these situations I believe its totally different to WILL-POWER in stopping drugs and opiates...When I mention "WILL-POWER" am talking about quitting drugs/opiates when you use for a high, use to hide from reality, use to pass time, use to just for the sake of it, but for PAWS and long drawn out withdrawals from buprenorphine its different as people need to work, need to be a mother, father and continue a routine...But if we are talking generally about addiction then I believe WILL-POWER plays a BIG PART, some people can CHOOSE to use WILL-POWER yet others DO NOT.. You will not die if you dont use opiates/drugs, those who surive and make it are those who have patience and can change their life around...Yes self esteem and confidence does play a huge issue, if you loat yourself because if your short or overwright then of course you will use, these are some of the issues people choose to stay addicted but is it right? no, they do not have to think like this.. It all depends on how a person is.


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