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 Post subject: Re: BlueIndian
PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2012 11:31 pm 
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I mean its no coicidence most educated intelligent folks do not have a addiction problem, such as doctors, lawyers, etc yes some may but not compared to uneducated folks who choose to behave in a selfish way and choose not to lead a dignified civilized life.. I just think when people cannot stop addiction because they want a high & whatnot they tend to make excuses, they think if they can't get off then nobody should get off and claim addiction is a diease, am sorry if some folks dont want to stop or cant live with a opiate hige then its not justification to be bitter and jelous and claim its the same for everybody when its not.. Like I said people stop when something happens in their life, thats proof its all the head and patience is the viture, people can stop when they think of more important aspects and people in their life, people stop when they become parents, when they see their loved ones suffer such as their parents, people stop when they realise many people in the world are worse off, many people do not have eye sight, no legs, no arms etc yet still remain positive and strong and have a smile on their face, still do not choose to pick up an opiate/drugs.. many are in war zones, many have gone through a lot yet still do not become addicts...Many are born and raised by addict parents yet they never turn out the same, you see we all make A CHOICE, and we all can make a CHOICE to stop being addicts...

Sorry but am just passionate in this..Ive seen people say themselves WILL-POWER does it, I've seen people do drugs/opiates for years and quit and be clean for several years, all claim WILL-POWER, thinking of loved ones, thinking of self respect, thinking of your health and being open minded etc is enough to turn away from addiction and lead a happy long sober life...So like I said nobody puts a gun to our heads or forces us, only we can help ourselves before anything else can help us...In life people will always make stupid and selfish choices, same with drugs, some can stay away or quit yet others wont, not cant but wont,, now if its illnessles and dieases of the body and min such as diabestes then its a completey different ball game, but addiction to opiates, alchohol? sorry I dont buy it..If you arent suffering PAWS or long drawn out withdrawals or your on short acting opiates and only do it for a high and think its normal buzz then I dont buy the addiction dieases idelogy...Sorry this is just my view and opinion..


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2012 11:56 pm 
Redemption, I completely agree with you about willpower!

I disagree with you about needing meetings..and AA/NA disagrees with you about addiction not being a disease. Also about addictiom being a status thing..plenty of doctors/lawyers/professionals etc. have problems with substance abuse.

You are quite the independent thinker, which often conflicts with 12 Step ideology.

Personally, willpower is the only thing that could help me decide to switch from dope to Suboxone and now to taper my Suboxone. Without willpower, we would all still be using.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 06, 2012 1:40 am 
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being a diabetic '.your body is set at a pattern for you to control' in order to keep it running properly'.
when you discover a drug makes you feel well/high and take for long periods of time' your body starts to
depend on it, and you take the drug set at a pattern for you to control. you would not stop taking your diabetic medication
weather it was will power or not" knowing you may become sick" and there is no craving. but then you try to stop taking your drug that makes you feel "high/or well being and discover w/d or cravings. and that is where the 'will power" comes in'.
why is your mind/body craving and why are you in w/d? the reason is" your mind and body is now set at a pattern that
depends on some thing to make it well again. THIS IS A TYPICAL DISEASE". the person is set for life on the problem that
that needs (will power) to control it. any thing that is a life long problem should be called a disease any way".


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 06, 2012 1:49 am 
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if any body thinks will power is the way to solve problems in life then we would not need the meaning of the word disease.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 06, 2012 11:32 am 
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Saying educated people do not become addicts is completely false. Addiction affects everyone from every walk of life. The medical field is vastly affected by opiate addicts. Do you have some sort of study or documentation that shows educated people are less likely to become addicts? You have made some very insulting conclusions with your above posts.

Is addiction the same as diabetes or Lupus? Absolutely not, but that doesn't make it less of a disease. My husband is a type one diabetic and my aunt suffers from Lupus, I also do not appreciate the comparison because like Ironic said there is nothing they did that contributed to them having the disease. That doesn't make addiction not one, just different. There are many different types of disease, ranging from a person not even noticing symptoms to not being able to get out of bed.

I believe will power is a component to staying in recovery but to say that is all it takes is quite ridiculous in my view. Everyone is entitled to their opinion but in my view your posts are exactly what's wrong with the worlds view of addicts. The thought that we are all just a bunch of uneducated, weak and selfish people is a very wrong characterization as I think is proven by the very caring and intelligent members we have here.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 06, 2012 1:30 pm 
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Breezy_Ann wrote:
Saying educated people do not become addicts is completely false. Addiction affects everyone from every walk of life. The medical field is vastly affected by opiate addicts. Do you have some sort of study or documentation that shows educated people are less likely to become addicts? You have made some very insulting conclusions with your above posts.

Is addiction the same as diabetes or Lupus? Absolutely not, but that doesn't make it less of a disease. My husband is a type one diabetic and my aunt suffers from Lupus, I also do not appreciate the comparison because like Ironic said there is nothing they did that contributed to them having the disease. That doesn't make addiction not one, just different. There are many different types of disease, ranging from a person not even noticing symptoms to not being able to get out of bed.

I believe will power is a component to staying in recovery but to say that is all it takes is quite ridiculous in my view. Everyone is entitled to their opinion but in my view your posts are exactly what's wrong with the worlds view of addicts. The thought that we are all just a bunch of uneducated, weak and selfish people is a very wrong characterization as I think is proven by the very caring and intelligent members we have here.


I strongly agree with you, Breezy- you have made very valid points.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 06, 2012 4:50 pm 
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Hey Redemption,

I know people who have mild depression and they manage their disease without meds and they can do that because they have mild depression.

I know people who are bipolar and they manage their disease without meds because they too have a mild case of bipolar.

BUT, I also know people with major depression and serious bipolar issues who DO take medication to help them, these people have serious cases of their disease and they need meds to help them. Are they weak because they depend on meds to help them?

What you seem to be saying about addiction is that addicts are all created equal, but nothing could be further from the truth. Addiction is like any other disorder, it comes in different flavors and different strengths and sometimes will power, meetings and moral support are not enough to halt the disorder.

You also mentioned that you know people who have come off of opiates and been clean till this day for several years. I have Celiac disease, as long as I don't eat gluten, I'm good to go. I've been off of gluten for a while now, but if I put gluten in my body, my Celiac disease goes absolutley nuts. Just because I'm not ingesting gluten (or drugs in the case of an addict) does NOT mean that my disease has magically disappeared. I know for a fact that when I put opiates in my body, my addiction comes roaring back to life instantly!! I've been off of Suboxone for a year and a half and I've lapsed 4 times, believe me, my addiction did not disappear because I wasn't using anymore, it was still there and as powerful as ever.

Did I simply lack will power leading up to my 4 lapses?? Maybe I did?? But once I put those fucking drugs into me, all hell breaks loose and that is NOT how most of the rest of the population reacts to opiates or other drugs, for that matter.

It always shocked me how me and my friends could go out and use drugs and I'd be the one wanting more and more and more. My friends seemed to be able to pick drugs up and put them down whenever. Is that because I have less will power or that I'm more self-centered than they are. Shit, those guys were some of the weakest, most selfish people I know, but they didn't have a problem with drugs?? How can that be?? They have crappy will power, they're selfish, but they don't abuse drugs?? There has got to be more to the picture here Redemption.

Strictly speaking, addiction may not be a disease, hell, I don't know?? But it's a serious condition where will power, meetings and moral support are often not enough to halt it.

I'm not trying to jump in your shit here or be mean or rude, I apologize if I came off that way, I'm just giving you my side of the equation.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 06, 2012 5:15 pm 
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Do you not realize that Kratom is nearly just like being on another opiate..?

I used (relapsed on?) Kratom daily for a few months when I ran out of Suboxone a few years ago and couldn't get more; it got me a little high and definitely got rid of Suboxone withdrawals.

After I went back onto Sub I then got Kratom withdrawals which where far worse and very strange compared Suboxone withdrawals haha..

Hearing people say its a 'miracle' 'god send' 'natural herb' etc etc sounds like rhetoric of people who first get on Sub not realizing its going to give them withdrawals similar to there opiate of choice did.. Same cycle; new drug.

If you use Kratom for only a few days and at small doses I could see that being a viable alternative to just tapering though. Would be no different from doing that with any other opiate though.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 06, 2012 6:39 pm 
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Breezy_Ann wrote:
Saying educated people do not become addicts is completely false. Addiction affects everyone from every walk of life. The medical field is vastly affected by opiate addicts. Do you have some sort of study or documentation that shows educated people are less likely to become addicts? You have made some very insulting conclusions with your above posts.

Is addiction the same as diabetes or Lupus? Absolutely not, but that doesn't make it less of a disease. My husband is a type one diabetic and my aunt suffers from Lupus, I also do not appreciate the comparison because like Ironic said there is nothing they did that contributed to them having the disease. That doesn't make addiction not one, just different. There are many different types of disease, ranging from a person not even noticing symptoms to not being able to get out of bed.

I believe will power is a component to staying in recovery but to say that is all it takes is quite ridiculous in my view. Everyone is entitled to their opinion but in my view your posts are exactly what's wrong with the worlds view of addicts. The thought that we are all just a bunch of uneducated, weak and selfish people is a very wrong characterization as I think is proven by the very caring and intelligent members we have here.





There was always an old saying in AA back when I used to attend: "An alcoholic has no defense against the first drink"
(I will bet Laddertripper will know something about that!)

What makes my husband suffer from intense pain and choose to take 3 advil when he has a safe full of hydros??...and only takes the hydros when he just can't stand it anymore...me, however, would never even think of the advil but go straight for the hydros....will power??....I'm like Dr.J. ....If I had will power I would have just quit...29 fucking years of hell ago...

..you are way off and I personally resented some of your post. I suppose you have the right to your opinion, but it really pissed me off.

Slipper


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 06, 2012 7:36 pm 
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Hi Slipper,

I am not sure how I pissed you off as I was agreeing with you. Perhaps you misread my post or meant to quote someone else? If it was directed at me I would appreciate knowing what I posted that offended you because it was not my intention.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 06, 2012 8:27 pm 
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Hey Breezy, I think slipper was agreeing with you and disagreeing vehemently with redemption.

Slippers subject line says she agrees with you totally.

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 Post subject: TO BREEZY...
PostPosted: Fri Jan 06, 2012 8:50 pm 
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Romeo wrote:
Hey Breezy, I think slipper was agreeing with you and disagreeing vehemently with redemption.

Slippers subject line says she agrees with you totally.




I am sorry I gave the wrong impression, Breezy...I was aiming at redemption, not you...I totally agree with you!!

so sorry....and thanks for the heads up Romeo...

Slipper


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 06, 2012 9:13 pm 
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Duh! I didn't read the subject. I was pretty sure you weren't posting to me. Sorry I will pay attention to the subject in the future.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 06, 2012 9:50 pm 
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Hey slipper,

Yeah, you have to watch that Breezy_Ann chick, she can be quite a DING DONG at times!! :lol:

Hey Breezy, (aka DING DONG), how are things settling in for y'all at your new diggs? Is everything cool-a-mun-doh?

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 Post subject: Sub w/d
PostPosted: Sun Jan 15, 2012 8:35 pm 
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Hi blueindian. For what its worth my experience with sub w/d was very similar to yours. I stopped subs cold turkey last month. I had been on 16mg day for over 2 yrs after being in active morphine addiction for 30 plus yrs. I have been doing Great and it was not my intention to stop at all. It seems my girlfriend just loves the affect that subs give her so she "borrowed" a few from me. lol. Any way not here to take her inventory I only wish her the best in her struggle with recovery. The point is I went 22 days without any subs. I agree it was the easiest w/d I have ever experienced!!! I had heard alot of horror stories and I was both scared to death and mad as hell at what I was surly about to go through. Being the good addict that I am, I had myself all twisted up obsessing over every little ache or pain I had, which were no doubt the results of me being so in tuned to myself. It was almost 2 weeks before I experienced any thing even resembling withdrawal. I had several nights that I could not get comfortable enough to sleep and I had some back pain although it was very tolerable as well as the headaches that i had until I resumed taking subs again. Ibuprofen worked great for the pain. I did miss the hell out of my subs no doubt, However I do have a program of recovery that I work each day and that was a huge huge help for me during that time. I did think a lot about getting high and Had a few days I wanted to use. That is what suboxone has helped the most with me, my thinking. I knew after 14 or 15 days off that I would probally feel the effects of my drug of choice and I do not like that thought to even enter my mind! Suboxone stops that thought evidently because I had not thought that intense about using in over 2 yrs of being on it or since I have resumed my regular dose again. Subs together with attending meetings and working a recovery program have saved my life period! and in 17 yrs of trying to stay clean, its the only thing that has every worked for me. Sorry about getting off the topic. My experience with suboxone withdrawl was very mild physically. The old thinking slipping back in was not pleasant in the least but I had tools for that that helped me a lot. Not planning on stopping this combination anytime soon.

Thanks, Jerry


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 16, 2012 11:02 am 
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Hey All,

ive been on about 7mg of suboxone/ day for almost 6 yrs. i was on methadone for 5. I was actual herion for 6 MONTHS!!! so ive spent the past 10 yrs recovering from a 6 month habit. i do have some anger about this, but dont want to dwell on that.

fascianting posts- esp. the voluntary aspect of the disease of addiction. there is fascinating research being done that the amount of early childhood trauma is directly correlational to addiction later. childhood trauma (sometimes called adverse childhood events/ incidents) is not the ONLY cause of addiction, but as far as i understand it, almost all addicts have had at least 1 ACE. therefore, addiction is not necessarily within the realm of voluntary action.

i dont use this as a justification for acting out, but as a way to better understand myself and have compassion for others. for more on this: (sorry i dont have the actual links but..) youtube- bomb in the brain.

anyway, i am TERRIFIED of withdrawal. im sure that at least 65% of my WD symptoms are psychosomatic. That being said, im SICK AS HELL of going to these condescending Drs, being treated like a ..(i dont know what- lowlife, scumbag, etc..?) the cost is astronomical and the distances i have to travel since i moved out of the city are ridiculous.

therefore, im considering rapid detox. im 99% sure i will never use herion again. its a HUGE upfront investment, but its something im willing to take on because i believe it will save in the long run. has anyone else tried this route? any experiences, suggestions, or general advice would be greatly appreciated!

thanks so much in advance!


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 16, 2012 11:19 am 
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fridayscall - There's one (or two?) rather heated threads here about rapid detox, but it's generally not something that's recommended by Dr. Junig or any legitimate medical professional who doesn't have a financial stake in the product, that I'm aware of.

It basically gets you through the acute phase of the withdrawals (while you're unconscious) but does absolutely nothing for PAWS. And if you stop and think about it, a slow taper will help you with both the acute AND post-acute withdrawals. Plus you won't have to spend tens of thousands of dollars doing it!

One CAN do a slow taper off suboxone, no matter how many years they've been on it, and go through a less severe withdrawal than all the horror stories are screaming about. All you have to do is slowly remove the opiate from your system over a longer period of time. I know it's a scary thought, but most people who have been through it will tell you that psyching yourself out is the worst thing you can do to yourself.

Lastly, have you ever read Dr. Junig's story about his recovery? He spent years and years on his, too, and I believe his active addiction only last 6 months as well. So your timeline isn't irregular. Addiction is extremely powerful and you've given yourself a lot of time and preparation to live life without the suboxone. Getting off the suboxone, going through a taper, is the easy part. Living without that net will be the hard part. Think of it that way.

Just some things to think about. Oh and welcome to the forum! Let me know if you can't find those rapid detox threads and I'll hunt them down for you. :)

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 Post subject: Re: Sub w/d
PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2012 11:33 pm 
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jleebow wrote:
Hi blueindian. For what its worth my experience with sub w/d was very similar to yours. I stopped subs cold turkey last month. I had been on 16mg day for over 2 yrs after being in active morphine addiction for 30 plus yrs. I have been doing Great and it was not my intention to stop at all. It seems my girlfriend just loves the affect that subs give her so she "borrowed" a few from me. lol. Any way not here to take her inventory I only wish her the best in her struggle with recovery. The point is I went 22 days without any subs. I agree it was the easiest w/d I have ever experienced!!! I had heard alot of horror stories and I was both scared to death and mad as hell at what I was surly about to go through. Being the good addict that I am, I had myself all twisted up obsessing over every little ache or pain I had, which were no doubt the results of me being so in tuned to myself. It was almost 2 weeks before I experienced any thing even resembling withdrawal. I had several nights that I could not get comfortable enough to sleep and I had some back pain although it was very tolerable as well as the headaches that i had until I resumed taking subs again. Ibuprofen worked great for the pain. I did miss the hell out of my subs no doubt, However I do have a program of recovery that I work each day and that was a huge huge help for me during that time. I did think a lot about getting high and Had a few days I wanted to use. That is what suboxone has helped the most with me, my thinking. I knew after 14 or 15 days off that I would probally feel the effects of my drug of choice and I do not like that thought to even enter my mind! Suboxone stops that thought evidently because I had not thought that intense about using in over 2 yrs of being on it or since I have resumed my regular dose again. Subs together with attending meetings and working a recovery program have saved my life period! and in 17 yrs of trying to stay clean, its the only thing that has every worked for me. Sorry about getting off the topic. My experience with suboxone withdrawl was very mild physically. The old thinking slipping back in was not pleasant in the least but I had tools for that that helped me a lot. Not planning on stopping this combination anytime soon.

Thanks, Jerry


You started the subs again?? Is that right, after two weeks or so, if that is the case the half life of the mu receptors at that dose were still attached, you would have been in sever w/d eventually. The long you stay on the worse it is. So do you plan on staying on it forever? I am on six years and attempting to get off I have a bit of some serious medical issues from the sub, has affected memory, brain damage, and other things. It's rough, I am dong a slow taper. I am just curious if you plan to take this long term


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 02, 2012 12:07 am 
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"The long (sic) you stay on the worse it is."

Both myself and Dr. Junig have said this many times, but there is simply no evidence to support the theory or allegation that the longer one is on suboxone the harder it is to come off. And there's definitely no evidence that the actual withdrawals are worse because one has been on it longer.

It's actually more like the way jleebow described it. The longer one is on suboxone, the more prepared they are to go it alone after having been on it for so long. They are usually better prepared to live without the net, so to speak, or in other words, to walk without the crutches that were needed while we needed to "heal". It's another way to look at it. They had the time needed to make the changes and work a good recovery program. They've (hopefully) taken the time to address things like triggers, cravings, coping skills, emotions/feelings, normal, and everyday stresses and anxieties without taking drugs, etc. They're (again, hopefully) prepared to live life on "life's terms", as they say.

Try to see it from a different perspective, maybe a more positive one. And from all the research I've done, I've never heard of suboxone causing brain damage. Are you possibly referring to a correlational relationship between your symptoms and suboxone, rather than a causal relationship? Having suboxone in our system/brain for an extended period of time doesn't do permanent damage to our brains. When the opiates are removed, the receptors return to normal. Now, it is true that as opiate addicts our brains are different than non-addicts, but that's not not due to the suboxone.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 02, 2012 2:09 am 
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fridayscall wrote:
Hey All,

ive been on about 7mg of suboxone/ day for almost 6 yrs. i was on methadone for 5. I was actual herion for 6 MONTHS!!! so ive spent the past 10 yrs recovering from a 6 month habit. i do have some anger about this, but dont want to dwell on that.

fascianting posts- esp. the voluntary aspect of the disease of addiction. there is fascinating research being done that the amount of early childhood trauma is directly correlational to addiction later. childhood trauma (sometimes called adverse childhood events/ incidents) is not the ONLY cause of addiction, but as far as i understand it, almost all addicts have had at least 1 ACE. therefore, addiction is not necessarily within the realm of voluntary action.

i dont use this as a justification for acting out, but as a way to better understand myself and have compassion for others. for more on this: (sorry i dont have the actual links but..) youtube- bomb in the brain.

anyway, i am TERRIFIED of withdrawal. im sure that at least 65% of my WD symptoms are psychosomatic. That being said, im SICK AS HELL of going to these condescending Drs, being treated like a ..(i dont know what- lowlife, scumbag, etc..?) the cost is astronomical and the distances i have to travel since i moved out of the city are ridiculous.

therefore, im considering rapid detox. im 99% sure i will never use herion again. its a HUGE upfront investment, but its something im willing to take on because i believe it will save in the long run. has anyone else tried this route? any experiences, suggestions, or general advice would be greatly appreciated!

thanks so much in advance!


I was on Sub for nearly 6 years as well, and my doses were much higher than yours. I was so overwhelmed with the tapering thing that I looked into everything else, including Ibogaine, a rehab setting, and rapid detox. I got tons of info, spoke to lots of doctors, and I came right back around in a big circle to tapering every time. The rapid detox is incredibly expensive....as in REALLY expensive. When you are done, they watch you and then stick you on a plane and send you back to wherever to came from. Many people feel like total HELL afterward, and you may have an implant, so you are stuck. Every rapid detox I spoke with included an implant. Rapid detox doesn't work as well for Sub as it does for other opiates. This whole process only gets you through the acute part of w/d, which is just a small portion of the whole deal. And I firmly believe it's important to let your body adjust slowly to the drop in Sub.

I know that feeling of being stuck, and I used to think I was stuck and needed a rapid detox or something. I'm terrified of feeling bad too. However, I tapered all the way off Sub and I feel totally fine. It's been about 6 months or so since I jumped from 1/16. My jump was super easy. I had no real acute. I had symptoms during my taper itself and some lingering symptoms for while after jumping. Still, it is 100% doable. I think anyone can taper off Sub if they want to. I heard over and over how impossible it was for someone on as long as I was, but it was absolutely not impossible. The worst part of the entire thing by FAR was the unknown.

I guess what I'm saying is: do the rapid detox if you want, but you do have options! You can always taper too.

laddertipper

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