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PostPosted: Tue Jul 12, 2011 9:10 am 
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My ob says I need to taper very soon ,within a month b/c of possible delayed brain growth. The brain is almost developed by 16 weeks. It's formed by then all theatre needed for a brain and then it just grows. By the time I taper the brain will be already formed. What's the point accept to ward off possible withdrawal.

My 12 weeks ultrasound looks fine so far but she said we can not know for sure about the brain until the 16th weeks if the brain is affected. I'm worried of course. Thing is on my my 9 week visit she did not say any of this to me about the brain,nothing about suboxone and the brain not until my 12 week visit yesterdy.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 12, 2011 10:11 am 
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I've never heard anything about suboxone harming a fetus or it's brain. In fact, most doctors don't recommend tapering off suboxone while pregnant. Any withdrawals the mom feels so will the fetus. The difference is the mom can be treated, but the fetus can't be. And because of this, there's a much higher risk of miscarriage, especially in the first trimester.

You might want to go to Dr. Junig's blog - Suboxone TalkZone - and see all of his posts that deal with pregnancy. There's a link to the TalkZone at the time of each page of the forum.

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 Post subject: Hi
PostPosted: Tue Jul 12, 2011 10:24 am 
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I do not know why she did not inform me earlier on. Maybe she just looked it up or something. It seems like I should of been told this at 9 weeks and not at 12 . I'm sure she is a fine ob/gyn. I find so many doctors not knowing anything about suboxone at all.

I have not read about the brain and suboxone on this forum .that makes me feel better.

Thanks :)


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 12, 2011 11:34 am 
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Wow, well that is a scary thing for a doctor to tell a patient. I had a baby on Sub too and nobody ever suggested to me that it would affect her brain. Now she is 3.5 years old and she's very bright, so I'm not worried at all. The placenta doesn't even form until week 6 or 7 (I think), so before then, your baby is living off a yolk sack for nourishment. During the first trimester, your risk of spontaneous miscarriage is the highest, so I'm very surprised she would tell you to taper off as quickly as possible. If she wanted you to taper, she should have started you doing that right away and had you go very slowly, making sure you come in once a week to check your blood pressure and such. My OB was more worried about Sub w/d than my baby being born on Sub. So was my psychiatrist and my neonatal specialist. I had three doctors and I was a high risk pregnancy, because I'd had two previous pregnancies (non Sub) that were difficult for unrelated reasons and had one baby very premature. So, I was followed closely and a lot of research and care went into guiding me through my pregnancy. This team of doctors communicated and decided what I should do. The one thing I was not supposed to do was to jump off my Sub. I did taper, but I didn't make myself sick, and once I got to a point where my body put up a fight, I held steady for the rest of my pregnancy.

From what you wrote, my inclination is to think your doctor just does not know what to tell you to do and needs to do a ton more research. Typically, when a med isn't familiar to a doctor as being safe, they tell you to stop taking it. You need to educate your doctor, frankly. Maybe that seems backwards, but you have to do this. Go onto Dr. Junig's website and print out everything you can find about Sub and pregnancy. Put it in a folder. Take it to your doctors office and give it to her and tell her to read it over and then let you know what you should do. I feel like doctors need to just say "I don't know" when they truly don't know and go get more information before coming up with a treatment plan. My Sub doc was my hero in this regard, because initially he told me the standard was for me to go onto Methadone, but he then said he needed time to research and then he came back and said he thought I should switch to Subutex, since it was safer and that I should not jump. When I did initially freak out and jump off my Sub, he made me take my Sub while on the phone with him and was furious with me for endangering my baby like that. Has your doctor switched you to Subutex? If you said that and I missed it, I'm sorry.

How about a gradual taper? There is a middle ground.....You just don't want to make yourself sick. How much are you taking, BTW?

I'm no doctor, but I just don't see how Sub could damage the baby's brain. It's an opiate. Typically, if a mom takes enough opiate during pregnancy, it can cause w/d in the baby, but as far as I know, it doesn't damage the baby's brain.

Keep up in the loop!!

laddertipper

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 12, 2011 2:51 pm 
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Tiffannsoli,

Hi! Congrats on your pregnancy! I didn't even realize you were expecting. Is this your first?

Look, this should be a SUPER SPECIAL time for you.....being pregnant. I just had a baby boy on Subutex 13wks ago. I know EVERYONE is different, but I remained on about 16mg through most of my pregnancy. My son was born HEALTHY, and only suffered w/some fussiness the day we went home (about 72hrs after birth).

The first tri-mester I was SOOOOO TIRED!! If I wasn't at work, I was taking a nap! For this reason, AND due to being so nauseous.....I only took 8mg/day for awhile. But after that passed, I went right back up to 16mg for the rest of my pregnancy.
The crazy thing about having a baby, while on the Sub....IS, EVERY PREGNANCY IS SO DIFFERENT....from what I've read, it seems as though it dosen't really matter what dose your on (as far as your baby's chances of having NAS)

I've heard of mothers whom were on even a higher dose than I was......and they're baby's were just fine, no withdrawls. And then, I've also learned of mom's who were only taking like 2mg or less....and they're baby's DID HAVE NAS. So, unfortunately....you just never know! But, one thing that MOST DOCTORS will tell you if your pregnant and on Sub maintainance......IS, DO NOT DISCONTINUE YOUR SUB WHILE PREGNANT. Tapering is one thing (if you feel yourself having even minor withdrawl symptoms, its probably best to stop tapering and maybe even go UP a bit), but coming off Sub completely....can really put you/YOUR BABY at risk.

My husband/I went to see a High Risk/Fetal Specialist while I was pregnant.....just to get a second opinion about EVERYTHING, and to have a more "IN DEPTH" ultrasound done. Our High Risk Doc said "Suboxone, and opiates in general DO NOT cause deformation, or problems w/the fetus's growth and development".

And I TOTALLY agree w/what Ladder suggested.....print out as much information as you can find on Sub/pregnancy. There's a wonderful study that was done by the NIH...you can find a link to it on Dr. Junig's blog. I took a whole stack of information with me, whenever I went to give birth. And boy, did it come in handy! The doctors and nurses were very appreciative that I brought it too!

Ultimately, whether or not you decide to taper/come off Sub is up to YOU (and your Sub doctor). Just realize that NOT ALL doctors KNOW EVERYTHING.....and some of them have a problem admitting this, and sometimes end up giving patients "not so good advice".
Im afraid, especially NOW....YOU HAVE TO BE AN ADVOCATE FOR YOURSELF (AND YOUR BABY).
Please keep posting, and let us know how your doing. Good Luck!!


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 Post subject: Thanks
PostPosted: Tue Jul 12, 2011 4:19 pm 
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I agree with your reply and I am on 8mgs . I'm doing a wean that will be finished by 30 days. I do not want to have to worry with wd for the baby as well,this way having 6 months to go,the bay will be sub free within a few weeks or so. I'm scared about the brain now,of course. I think he does not know much about it as you said and this never surprises me anymore when a medical doctor knows nothing or has never heard of suboxone.

I will be careful but I want off completely so I do not have to deal with any crap from nurses or anything.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 12, 2011 4:30 pm 
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I would tell your doc that you have been very concerned about what she said about Sub and fetal brain development, and ask her for some references to medical journal articles on it so you can read up on it. I'm willing to bet there are none, but I've been wrong before.
So do your homework. Read up on whatever you can, and make your own decision. If you still want to get off Sub let be for your own peace of mind and not because the doc is using some scare tactic (I wonder if they're just worried about liability, based on what i have read from other Sub Moms on here).
Congratulations on your pregnancy and I wish you the best of luck. Be sure to keep posting as you taper - you will need the support!
Lilly


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 Post subject: Re: Thanks
PostPosted: Tue Jul 12, 2011 11:42 pm 
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tiffannsoli30 wrote:
I agree with your reply and I am on 8mgs . I'm doing a wean that will be finished by 30 days. I do not want to have to worry with wd for the baby as well,this way having 6 months to go,the bay will be sub free within a few weeks or so. I'm scared about the brain now,of course. I think he does not know much about it as you said and this never surprises me anymore when a medical doctor knows nothing or has never heard of suboxone.

I will be careful but I want off completely so I do not have to deal with any crap from nurses or anything.


Girl, I wish you the best. I started a taper from 8 mg in late October and I'm not quite done yet, so as you see, it can take a while. I'm worried for you because I have a bad feeling that your doctor may have simply thrown something she doesn't have any basis for at you and then left you to make very tough decisions all on your own. Is there any way you can get a second opinion? BTW, I don't think there's anything at all wrong with your plant to taper. I'm just concerned that you think you can safely do it in only 30 days. I'm assuming your doc is going to give you blood pressure meds, specifically Clonidine and monitor you closely to make sure that it's working. I guess I feel like you need to make it very clear to your doctor by saying "You told me this. Based on what you told me, I'm making a decision and I want you to be sure it's the best thing for my baby that I do this. I want you to make sure it is not going to put my baby in danger." Let her know that you are relying on her advice, so she better make sure she double checks her research. It's so easy for a doctor to scare a pregnant woman, because we will truly do anything for our babies, won't we? I just hope you are doing the best thing. I know it's never an easy choice and no one knows anything for sure. I am an anal retentive mother to the max. My school age kids are in gifted classes and my kids are well taken care of, to say the least. I do not in any way, from anything I've read or been told, believe Sub damages a baby's brain or development. If I thought that, I'd be the first one telling you to err on the side of caution. I absolutely don't believe you have already damaged your baby in any way. Just please be careful and monitor your pressure and heart rate. Keep your doctor well informed, especially if you get sick from w/d, so she cannot say you never told her.

laddertipper

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 Post subject: Hi
PostPosted: Wed Jul 13, 2011 9:09 am 
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I know the taper will be hard. I am going to have a blood pressure machine and cloindine too . The low energy with a 7 year old boy in school will be a challenge itself. Being 5 months by September 11 ,school for my son is busy . I get so tired from wd. The chills and sweats I can handle. When the anxiety starts it's time to take a bit more sub. That's when my bp rises and vomiting starts.

It's a tough bind to be in. Too much sub or too little can both be harmful.



My nausea is better at least. I ran out of sub last week for fours days,I tried everything to get my doctor that was out for the fourth of July. I threw up and had chills and nausea from hell! That scared me. I started to bleed too, the doctor got back and I was fine. I went into my ob/gyn to make sure the baby was ok. The ultrasound was 12 weeks and all good. This is when I was told about the brain growth delay and sub.

I have a partial previa that the doctor says will grow away from the cervix. That's was causing bleeding. I got a taste of WD while pregnant and it was horrible. Can't do that again,but I do want to be off in next 30 Days. Guess I will see how that will work for me. :?

Thanks for all of the replies, I always worry about forums and what people think and if they will like what I say or not. I appreciate all words of encouragement .
:D


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 13, 2011 9:51 am 
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Oh, goodness, girl. That is scary about the bleeding.....You must have been freaking out.

Well, I'm so happy to hear that you are going to be monitoring your pressure and taking the Clonidine. Honestly, I'm not sure whether or not you're making the best choice, but I know there's no 'perfect' choice, so I completely get where you're coming from. Just please, please, don't push your body too dang hard. Remember that the baby is going through it too and they cannot monitor him/her while inside you as well as they could if he/she were already born. I am not at all sure you can make it off 8 mg in 30 days without causing yourself some significant w/d. If you hit a rough patch or plateau and can't get off by then, will you slow down a bit and let your body catch up? I mean, there's no absolute deadline for 30 days from now. Is there? I'd suggest you start taking small amounts of Sub and space them out as long as you can without making yourself sick. Basically, you decide to not take any until you start feeling that you need it. This should get your dose down pretty quickly, and hopefully you won't feel too much.

Good luck and keep us posted. (((HUGS)))

laddertipper

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 Post subject: Hi lady
PostPosted: Wed Jul 13, 2011 11:49 am 
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I like the idea of going as long as possible and then taking the least amount to feel stable. Chills and low energy are ok . As long as my B/P is low and heart rate low I should be ok. That's the best I can do. I have 45 strips,I sure will have a lot left over. I got those free at least with a coupon my sub doc gave me :wink:


I hope this goes well with my plan. I will not have the security of sub helping me anymore but if I were to need an emergency C-section I guess the sub would make it difficult for pain medicine to relieve any pain.


I was addicted to tramadol . A few months ago I was my sub clinic shut down. Before I could find a new sub doctor I got in a bind and had to substitute tramadol for a couple of days. I threw it up! I could not tolerate it at all. I am amazed I used to take 12 at a time! I know now I will never relapse on that. My body just rejected it. I'm glad too. I did take soma too. We all know sub can not block it but it was helping the cravings or mental cravings for it. That I just do not take because of the nature of the drug. I have to just not do it. I have been off Soma 18months and tramadol actually 3 not two years.

That's my history ,anyways nothing to do with the subject which I got off of.

I saw my bump when I woke up today. A bit on the right side but it will grow even. I was excited to see the baby growing. I have been in shock because it was a full fledged surprise! I thought I was infertile cause of some issues with my ovaries and thought I hurt my body with all the pills I had taken. It's a miracle IMO that I am pregnant.

The hospital the baby is to be born is the same hospital I was in about 6 or 7 times due to over doses with soma. I am happy to be going for a joyful reason this time. :wink:


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 15, 2011 3:14 pm 
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Just wanted to say that it's awesome you've been able to taper down. I just found out I was pregnant 2 weeks ago and have gotten myself down to 2 mgs..it's uncomfortable but not horrible. I think I'll spend another weeek at 2 and then go to 1. Then jump. I'm praying that the wds don't get really bad..that they stay like this..anxiety and some rls but no killer wds. that's what I'm praying for/counting on to get me off this. I don't know if I'm being naiive thinking I'll be able to get away from this without being hit hard but I think my motivation will help bring me through it. Please keep us posted on your progress. I worry so much these days. In Canada subUTEX is not available. I'm on suboxone and hate that I'm having to be on it for any amount of time while pregnant. But the only thing I can do at this point is try and safely get off.


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 15, 2011 3:23 pm 
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free_bird, you need to understand that it's not recommended to stop suboxone during pregnancy, especially in the first trimester when the first of miscarriage is the highest. Every single withdrawal symptom you feel is felt by the fetus as well, but it cannot be treated. It's perfectly safe to continue to take sub while pregnant. Please check out Dr. Junig's blog posts about pregnancy and suboxone: http://suboxonetalkzone.com/category/pregnancy/
At the very least you'll get some really good information so you can make an informed decision.

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 15, 2011 4:32 pm 
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I TOTALLY agree Hatmaker!

I understand being pregnant.....and scared to death that your baby may suffer NAS.
AND, I also sympothize with anyone who's pregnant and nervous about the delivery/postpartum pain control......as I was just in these shoes myself, (pregnant and worrying myself crazy)

But, getting OFF the Sub, while pregnant ISN'T THE ONLY option......in fact, it might not be a good decision at all!

Im sure many Moms go onto forums (including this one), read something that scares the crap outta them....AND then they take what they've read as the COMPLETE TRUTH. I allowed things that I read, right after I learned that I was pregnant, to scare ME TOO!

But, I really must stress this.......no-one has any idea of who the person behind those typed words REALLY IS, and what they're particular circumstances were/are.

Ultimately, you hafta do what you feel is best FOR YOU and YOUR BABY.......but, I certainly would do AS MUCH RESEARCH AS POSSIBLE before coming to my final decision to get off the Sub.

What worries me about these QUICK tapers off Sub is........IF you haven't made all of the necessary changes (people, places, things) in your life, since you've been on Suboxone, or IF you dont attend meetings/have some type of support system in place, such as working w/a therapist........WHATS GONNA STOP YOU FROM RELAPSING AFTER YOUR OFF THE SUB?

Please don't think Im being harsh or that I look down on anyone who's pregnant and has decided that tapering off is the BEST choice for them......I DON'T. It just frightens me, thinking about these poor pregnant women (AND THEY'RE BABIES), suffering through withdrawls. Especially, when its been studied that remaining on Sub maintainance while pregnant is the safest thing to do for opiate addicted moms.

And let me state again, I just had a baby 14wks ago......I WAS SCARED TOO! But, I did my research and put alot of those fears to rest. And then, I began working closely with my O.B.....to come up with a game plan.......or, BIRTHPLAN I should say.


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