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 Post subject: Struggling to start
PostPosted: Wed Sep 11, 2013 8:25 am 
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Folks. I am trying to recover from a 120mg a day oxy habit. I really hate this strangle hold oxy has on my. But, I am nervous about precipitated WD

Has anyone gotten to the point their WD is BAD and the. Started sub by testing on a small amout? I have the 8/2 sheets. I am thinking about cutting it in 16th's if possible. Does this testing work in determining if you are ready? If I take the tester and feel a little better is it safe to think it is ok to take the rest of a 4mg piece ?


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 Post subject: Re: Struggling to start
PostPosted: Wed Sep 11, 2013 8:35 am 
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mkintexas wrote:
Folks. I am trying to recover from a 120mg a day oxy habit. I really hate this strangle hold oxy has on my. But, I am nervous about precipitated WD

Has anyone gotten to the point their WD is BAD and the. Started sub by testing on a small amout? I have the 8/2 sheets. I am thinking about cutting it in 16th's if possible. Does this testing work in determining if you are ready? If I take the tester and feel a little better is it safe to think it is ok to take the rest of a 4mg piece ?



Hey there....

If it were me, and it was before, I would use the Cow's (clinical opiate withdrawal scale) to determine if your ready to induct or not. Here's the link to it below....

http://www.naabt.org/documents/cows_ind ... _sheet.pdf

It gives a number score to different symptoms and once you get to about 15-20 or higher then you know your ready to induct! I went into PW's myself and I can assure you that is not something you want to have happen to you! Need to be in moderate to severe withdrawals before that first dose is taken.

If you can have someone score you it's better because we tend to score ourselves higher because we are in withdrawals and want to get it over with. The Cow's takes the guesswork out of it. Some might be ready in 12 hrs, some in 24 hrs or more, but if you use the score then you know for certain. I highly recommend it's use!

You may not have all the symptoms either, just score what symptoms you do have. Hope this helps and I wish you the very best! Please update your progress and if I can be of further help just let me know!

Also: I would begin with low doses of sub, wait an hour, and if more is needed repeat that process. Maybe begin with 1 or 2mg doses of sub, you can always increase the dose if needed.

I'll be around if you need anything or have additional questions!

Karen xoxo


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 Post subject: Re: Struggling to start
PostPosted: Wed Sep 11, 2013 9:06 am 
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Hi Karen,

Thank you for replying. I have printed out the COWS sheet. Unfortunately I will have to self score as those close to me do not know I have a problem. And to be brutally honest the two people close to me do not have the tools in the toolset to be supportive of the situation. I plan on scoring very conservatively. If you have a decent amount of experience with Suboxone What would you guess would be a good stable dose for 120 MG a day oxy habit? Also I am looking at Suboxone has basically a detox tool. I have a counselor who is going to work with me on the underlying issues. I am hoping recovery will not be too terribly difficult. Many of the underlying causes and triggers have changed or been removed. I think I am mostly dealing with habits and physical dependence now. Also I won't lie I enjoy the buzz. However my wife and I are expecting our second It is quite obvious that this habit does not belong in my life. Stopping the habit on the other hand has proven to be a challenge This is where I hope Suboxone is the miracle that it has been for many people. I am nervous about it though. There are a few things I hate more than dizziness nausea and vertigo And I am nervous Suboxone may cause one or more of these.


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 Post subject: Re: Struggling to start
PostPosted: Wed Sep 11, 2013 9:14 am 
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Hey MK,

I would say that 8mg is a good place to start. I don't mean to take the whole 8mg on your first dose, but a total of 8mg per day usually works well for most people.

I have been following your thread, but Karen has been giving you great advice and I haven't really had much to add. Just suffice it to say I agree with Karen. LOL

Good luck! Let us know how it goes!

Q

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 Post subject: Re: Struggling to start
PostPosted: Wed Sep 11, 2013 9:22 am 
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Congratulations and best wishes on the birth of your 2nd child. I hope baby and mom have the easiest of times! I am actually expecting my first right now! It's a very exciting time for me also!

QHorse is correct, I also believe 8mg or so would be a good dose to begin with. And as she says, not the entire dose at once. I suggested in the last post that you may want to try 1 or 2mg first, wait and hour to give it plenty of time to work to it's full potential, and then take more if needed. In other words BUILD UP the amount in your sysytem rather than over-loading it immediately.

Everyone is different and what may take me 10 to 12mg to get stable, may take you 6-8mg or so. By taking small doses you will know when your completely stable and feeling good. You won't feel high, or at least you shouldn't expect to, you should just feel as naormal as possible. You will feel good and be able to do anything you want to be doing.

Just realize you have to get real sick with withdrawals before you get better. You only have to do this one time so do it correctly ok. It sucks to go through the withdrawals, but soon as you get to the target score and take that first or second dose of sub you will begin feeling better right away! It's so worth it to take your time. You can do this, I have little doubt.

Here if you need me...

Karen xoxo


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 Post subject: Re: Struggling to start
PostPosted: Wed Sep 11, 2013 9:27 am 
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When was your last dose of Oxy, and what is your score right now if you have gotten that far?


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 Post subject: Re: Struggling to start
PostPosted: Wed Sep 11, 2013 9:32 am 
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I just wanted to add one more thing that may help you.

For the first day you might need to take a bit more to get yourself fully comfortable. I took 12mg the first day and then dropped to 8 for the rest of my treatment. My doctor did it this way.

First dose was 4mg, 30 minutes later I was reevaluated, I felt a little better but still in WD and he gave me another 4mg, about 45 min. later I still wasn't completely comfortable and was given another 4mg. After that I was good, and the 8mg the next day was perfect because my receptors were filled from the previous day.

You will know after the first smallish dose if you are going to have PW. You should feel a bit better, not worse. If you feel somewhat better after the first dose then you know you're in the clear. Just be honest with the COWS rating and you will be fine!

I know it's scary, but you can do it!

Q

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 Post subject: Re: Struggling to start
PostPosted: Wed Sep 11, 2013 9:47 am 
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Hi
I started Sunday with the doctor, he gave me 2mg then waited to see how i felt. I really didn't know what to expect & i think i had a harder time then most. I was doing at least 360 oxy a day & the last 6 weeks i was using Oxycontin-the extended release so i was really scared i would get sick instead of better.

IMHO you should wait about 24 hours & then score yourself. That is usually more than enough time for immediate release oxy. For me it was time to quit, i didn't even feel human anymore. I had plenty of pills left that i gave to the doctor to hold so it wasn't that i was out or couldn't get more at my next appt, it was I needed to recover.

Bottom line is I did fine...I felt crappy at 24 hours but not like i wanted to die. I drove myself to the appt & drove home.

The doc did give me serquel (spelling?) to sleep the night before.

Everyone is here for you. You can do this & be ok. I was scared but just knew i had to stop. My tolerance was out of control & my life was crumbling around me. I actually was so messed up i didn't care about much. House was a mess, doing the bare minimum..i was not living i was just barely existing.

No one knew about my oxy addiction & no one knows about the sub.

The people here are awesome, just trust yourself & know that this is a step in the right direction.

Please try no to think about side effects...Use this as a detox tool - that is my plan. But i will allow myself enough time to do it right one time. If it takes 3 months than that's what i will do. One step at a time.


Last edited by Tiki on Wed Sep 11, 2013 9:53 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Struggling to start
PostPosted: Wed Sep 11, 2013 9:49 am 
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Thanks all. I have not started the process. I know it is only one time. I just have embrace it instead of running scared from it. I was in WD for 70 hours once. Obviously I didnt die, but it sure was far from pleasant. Mind over matter I suppose.


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 Post subject: Re: Struggling to start
PostPosted: Wed Sep 11, 2013 10:05 am 
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mkintexas wrote:
Thanks all. I have not started the process. I know it is only one time. I just have embrace it instead of running scared from it. I was in WD for 70 hours once. Obviously I didnt die, but it sure was far from pleasant. Mind over matter I suppose.



Ok MK, let us know when you are ready to begin.

One other bit of advice, or a suggestion to consider is when you begin to withdraw, I would NOT take any kind of "comfort med" during this time. As I said, it truly sucks to be in horrible withdrawals, but you only have to do it one time.

If you take any of the comfort-type meds like Tylenol, Motrin, a Benzo for example, or any kind of med that makes you "feel better" you will be defeating the purpose. The whole idea of pre-induction is to feel bad and not better. If you do take any comfort med it will most likely DELAY the withdrawl progress and you will perhaps suffer longer than you otherwise would have. Make sense to you?

Up to you of course, just my suggestion, based on my own personal experience. Let us know when the countdown begins!

Karen xoxo


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 Post subject: Re: Struggling to start
PostPosted: Wed Sep 11, 2013 10:10 am 
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Brown Eyed Girl wrote:
mkintexas wrote:
Thanks all. I have not started the process. I know it is only one time. I just have embrace it instead of running scared from it. I was in WD for 70 hours once. Obviously I didnt die, but it sure was far from pleasant. Mind over matter I suppose.



Ok MK, let us know when you are ready to begin.

One other bit of advice, or a suggestion to consider is when you begin to withdraw, I would NOT take any kind of "comfort med" during this time. As I said, it truly sucks to be in horrible withdrawals, but you only have to do it one time.

If you take any of the comfort-type meds like Tylenol, Motrin, a Benzo for example, or any kind of med that makes you "feel better" you will be defeating the purpose. The whole idea of pre-induction is to feel bad and not better. If you do take any comfort med it will most likely DELAY the withdrawl progress and you will perhaps suffer longer than you otherwise would have. Make sense to you?

Up to you of course, just my suggestion, based on my own personal experience. Let us know when the countdown begins!

Karen xoxo


Hmmm, I did NOT know that Karen! I was loaded up on Motrin, Immodium and anything else I could get my hands on. Had not had narcotics in 48 hours, but I still went into PW and I always wondered why!

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 Post subject: Re: Struggling to start
PostPosted: Wed Sep 11, 2013 10:21 am 
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Minnie wrote:

Hmmm, I did NOT know that Karen! I was loaded up on Motrin, Immodium and anything else I could get my hands on. Had not had narcotics in 48 hours, but I still went into PW and I always wondered why!



Hey there Minnie!

Oh yeah, it's true! I was getting ready to induct at one point and was getting sicker as was to be expected and scored myself and I was at a 10 on the Cow's I believe at the time. I took some tylenol, and some Motrin and my score DROPPED to a 4!!!!! I was like, what is going on here. I was educated rather quickly about it.

When one of my friends was ready to induct she was getting sicker and I was scoring her for induction. She was at a 12 and just about ready to take that first dose of sub. She took a Xanax because she felt the pressure of withdrawals without my knowing at he time and her score also dropped to a 6!!! She had to gp through longer withdrawals at that point, and I did as well. Not what you want to be doing!!! :shock:

So there is no doubt in my mind that that "comfort meds" prolong the score needed if you use that Cows, which I would recommend everyone use. I am willing to bet that's what happened in your case Minnie!!!

Karen xoxo


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 Post subject: Re: Struggling to start
PostPosted: Wed Sep 11, 2013 11:26 am 
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Do comfort meds such as benzo or clonidine actually cause or assist with precipitated withdrawals? I thought they simply interfered with your ability to interpret your symptoms for the cows sheet


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 Post subject: Re: Struggling to start
PostPosted: Wed Sep 11, 2013 11:35 am 
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I didn't even know what a "COWS" was until this site! I also thought I was just treating symptoms, not messing with my actual chemistry.

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 Post subject: Re: Struggling to start
PostPosted: Wed Sep 11, 2013 12:03 pm 
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mkintexas wrote:
Do comfort meds such as benzo or clonidine actually cause or assist with precipitated withdrawals? I thought they simply interfered with your ability to interpret your symptoms for the cows sheet



No, the comfort meds don't cause any PW's, they just interfere getting to the score need on the Cows by delaying the symptoms, or keeping you from progressing further. Taking subs too early after your last dose of other narcotics is usually what causes PW's.

If you do go into PW's, you need to stop taking any subs and allow yourself to get into withdrawals again and start over. That's from experience too, not guessing!

Karen


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 Post subject: Re: Struggling to start
PostPosted: Wed Sep 11, 2013 1:09 pm 
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So. Would comfort meds in effect allow you to get further in to narcotic WD? If you are masking WD would you not be allowing more time for more of the narcotic to come off of your receptors? Or is this wishful thinking?


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 Post subject: Re: Struggling to start
PostPosted: Thu Sep 12, 2013 9:37 am 
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Hi Mike


Since no one answered i will tell you what my doctor told me....I hope this helps you.

First a bit of my background...I was using at least 360 mg oxy daily..i would take 2-3 80 mg oxycontin (extended release) & the rest in oxy immediate release, the 30 mg blue pills. I chewed the 30's & swallowed the 80's after cutting them in half. I tried to chew them but there is a gel like covering so it wasn't worth it.
I have been on opiates for 5-6 years..sadly i can't even remember when i realized i was addicted. Started out because i have pain & escalated to a serious problem.

So my sub doctor said to take ONE 80 mg no later than 9 am Saturday. He even said I could use as much as i wanted Friday but NOT anything after 9 am Saturday because i was going on the sub on Sunday. I had a 10 am appt on Sunday. He gave me seroquel (spelling) for sleep & said to only take it if i was really not well. Unfortunately, i have been on xanax for 3 years & can't stop CT so he said NOT to take any xanax after 9 pm Saturday.

Saturday I had to work so i took the one 80 mg extended release & was ok till about noon & I took some Norco..not sure of the amount-either 20 or 40 mg. I was looking for that energy boost that i never got with the 80's.

So now i figured i screwed myself but by Sunday morning I was in enough w/d to start & believe me i was scared! Of course i didn't tell him about the norco's. He gave me 2mg & waited a while then gave me another 2 mg. I did NOT go into PW's.

I can only tell you my experience. I was coming off a ton of opiates & i also take other meds for different health issues. I am in my early 50's & not in great shape. I didn't really feel that sick which was weird & scary LOL I didn't "feel" the sub. You are just not sick. It's great to not be sick, by the 2nd dose my diarrhea slowed down (that was my worse symptom), the doctor was really nice & we were chatting like friends. He came into the office just for me so no one else was there & it was quiet & calm. We talked about normal stuff & after the third 2mg dose he asked if i was ok & wrote down what i should do when i got home. I took a total of 12 mg that first day. He wants me on 24 mg based on the high dose of opiates & length of time. I have chosen Not to do that. Monday i took 20 mg & felt speedy & yucky so Tuesday i dropped to 16 (wanted to take 12 but took the wrong piece to work with me) so I will stay on 16 for a few more days & drop to 12 mg based on info i have received here. I want to be on the lowest dose possible so it will be easier to taper off.

I was super scared. It took me almost 10 months to actually take the sub. I started looking into it in December 2012, got more serious in April 2013 & started calling sub doc's & rehab's but still was scared & didn't start until September. I have an idea of your concern. Don't read nasty story's, don't look at side effects. Just do what is best for you & your family.

I really hope my experience helps you.

Hang in there...


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 Post subject: Re: Struggling to start
PostPosted: Thu Sep 12, 2013 9:38 am 
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mkintexas wrote:
So. Would comfort meds in effect allow you to get further in to narcotic WD? If you are masking WD would you not be allowing more time for more of the narcotic to come off of your receptors? Or is this wishful thinking?



Wishful thinking... :(


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 Post subject: Re: Struggling to start
PostPosted: Thu Sep 12, 2013 9:51 am 
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So, if we take comfort meds when we are tapering sub, are we stifling progress?

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 Post subject: Re: Struggling to start
PostPosted: Thu Sep 12, 2013 10:01 am 
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Hi Minnie


How are you? I can't find your thread! My response to OP was regarding starting sub not tapering. I think comfort meds are fine when tapering sub.


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