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 Post subject: Strangest thing, Ideas?
PostPosted: Sun Dec 06, 2009 4:29 pm 
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Hello. I have been taking Suboxone for 5 months. It HAS saved my life! I have had NO desire to use, pick up......etc.

What's going on now is that EVERYTIME I TRY TO DOSE w/ my sub, I start gagging uncontrolably, & OUT it goes.........

This has been going on for FIVE days. I feel ok, for the most part, a mild headache....thought I was getting the flu, but...

the SUB is the only thing making me "lose my cookies." I have even tried taking 1/4 of an 8mg pill- FAR below my Rxed dose. Still, NO good. Anyone have any ideas about this? I have no clue WHY this is going on!

Thanking you in Advance, joy Joy

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from "The Prophet" by Kahlil Gibran


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 Post subject: Try this...
PostPosted: Sun Dec 06, 2009 11:21 pm 
Hey,
Wow, I really feel your pain! That really blows...hopefully it'll be temporary....I'm thinking you should try the water dosing method. I mean, I haven't really actually done it, but I've seen it described somewhere in this forum. People use it when they're tapering off, so I'm just thinking that if you eliminate the tablet by dissolving it first, you're mouth may accept the water without gagging. It's worth a shot, anyway. Good luck! :D


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 02, 2010 10:44 pm 
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Hmmm, that is something I have not heard of as of yet. The only thing I can think of, and I am no expert, is that maybe you are hypersensitive to Naloxone? I have heard and read that the Naloxone can cause pretty bad headaches and I think nausea in some people that get an 'allergic reaction' to it. I don't know for sure....

Unless........unless you are actually not very opiate tolerant and the buprenorphine is too strong causing disphoria (spelling?), nausea, etc because of the high stregnth of bupe. Meaning, if you were taking 6- 5 mg vicodin's a day (30 mg hydrocodones) and that was your addiction.....well, the bupe is probably going to cause a 'stronger opiate effect' compared to the hydro.

Please someone correct me if I am wrong.

Good luck, and let us know what happened!!

_________________
"The past is finished. There is nothing to be gained by going over it. Whatever it gave us in the experiences it brought us was something we had to know."----Rebecca Beard

"Have no fear of perfection - you'll never reach it." ---Salvador Dali


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 Post subject: That's interesting....
PostPosted: Sat Jan 02, 2010 11:38 pm 
Big Red, those are two pretty good ideas...especially the naloxone issue. I wonder if the naloxone causes me issues, too. For some reason I have two big issues with my Suboxone: nausea, and joint/muscle pain. And during ten years of opiate abuse, I never had an issue with either. The only difference now that I can see is the addition of the naloxone. I have thought about asking my doc about Subutex, which is pure bupe, but I've only been his patient for 4 months so I don't think it would fly. Maybe in six months 8)
Naloxone sucks!!
JD


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 03, 2010 10:34 pm 
BigRed, you're on 12mg/day right? and JD, you're down under 1 mg/day right? I may have you two backwards or just be totally remembering somebody else.
Anyway, you're thoughts are interesting to me. When I first started Suboxone I would get a bad headache after dosing. I read on here about spitting out the orange gooo after the pill dissolved in an effort to avoid swallowing the Naloxone part of the medication. I did that and it worked like a charm. At that time I was taking 8-12mg/day. That was six months ago. I am now down to 2mg/day (just dropped from 3mg a few days ago). In part, the reason for my tapering has been the onset of side effects which until that point I would not have had. It started about 3 months ago when I started having the joint pain/stiffness and feeling kind of 'foggy' (I wrote about it somewhere on the forum) Anyhow I felt and others agreed, that maybe these issues indicated the need for me to reduce my dose. So at that time I dropped my dose by about 4mg/day and it worked out fine. It was so easy in fact that I went on and tried to drop my dose again a little too quickly and that didn't work out so good. So I went ahead and held my dose steady for several weeks. Well, then again here the last couple weeks, after I dose, I would get nauseous, headachey.....so I'm thinking okay, my body is telling me it's time to reduce my dose again. Now that I'm down to like 4mg/day, I know I am low enough that if I want this to work well I'll need to take it slow, so I just drop to 3mg/day. What do you know? My nausea, headaches improve.
So I'm thinking a lot of these side effects we are getting just may be an indicator that it's times to reduce our dose a bit. Perhaps our tolerance, after so many years of going up and up and up on full agonists, is finally able to be leveling off or maybe even beginning to drop a teeny bit. I know Suboxone is strong, strong stuff and I am pretty ignorant to such scientific things, but isn't it possible that when we get ourselves on reasonbly low doses that some healing is happening in our messed up lil heads!! I hope so!!
I'm just talking....All I know is that for me so far, when I start having untoward effects....I drop my dose a bit....and I feel better!! Not saying it'll work that way for anyone else. I feel really lucky though if this keeps up. Along with consulting with my doctor, I may just have an easy time of weaning off Sub when and if the time comes. Never hurts to think positively, right?!!
Let me know what you think.


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 Post subject: actually...
PostPosted: Sun Jan 03, 2010 11:16 pm 
well, setmefree, theres a little bit of a story behind my dose. See, I was taking 16 mg/ a day. Then I kept seeing how everyone was taking around 4 mg a day w/out a problem so over about a month I dropped down to 4 mg. Then, in what I thought was something totally unrelated to the subs, I started getting so sick. I just started getting more and more nauseas every day, couldn't eat, felt like I had the flu. So I really thought I had the flu. This went on for about 2 weeks, until it finally hit me that my Suboxone was too low!! 4 mg was just way too low for me. So I immediatelly went and took two 8 mg Subs together, and within a few minutes I was feeling soooo good. So now I'm back to 16 mg a day and happy.
However, now this is about 10 days later and some of the body pain is back...it's not nearly as bad b/c I've been spitting the leftover spit, which has really helped by preventing the naloxone from reaching my brain, I think.
But this was an interesting experiment into how some doses work for some and not for others.
JD


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Jan 03, 2010 11:19 pm 
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I totally agree with what setmefree just wrote. I went through a similar thing with the gagging too. I was on about 14mgs a day at the time when the gagging thing started, and I thought I was going to have to quit. Well, I stopped for a few days and I didn't feel too hot, so I started back on a lower dose, probably around 8mgs or so and I was much better.

I had the foggy/tired/joint ache thing too, but I chalked it up to fibromyalgia, which I was diagnosed with before I ever got on Sub. I'm pleased to say that about a month or so after I stopped sub, those joint & body aches reduced dramatically and my energy level was way up.

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 Post subject: Possible solution...
PostPosted: Mon Jan 04, 2010 12:34 am 
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Hi,

I'm sorry to hear about your "gag" reflex. If you can't take your meds then that's a problem. I'm not sure if anyone has said this in a post yet but Subutex may not cause this reaction. That is, if the reaction is caused by the taste of Suboxone. However, I'm not 100% sure if Subutex has the same taste. I know you dose it the same way.

If dosing the med is your problem (putting it under your tongue) then it is tough to say what you could do.

When in doubt, ask your doctor. ; )

I hope you gain control over this issue soon.

Take care.

PAINguin

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 Post subject: And...
PostPosted: Mon Jan 04, 2010 12:48 am 
Also, I think the solution for me will be to take maybe a happy medium at 8 mg or so right now, it's just I feel really "greedy" about my Sub right now after going into withdrawal unintentionally. Mentally, 16 mg is perfect for me. I think I will try to go down to 12 mg next week, because I know (intellectually, at least) that taking as much Sub as I am is wasting a lot of expensive medication. I have Medicare/Medicaid so I don't feel it financially, which makes it easy to forget this stuff is worth far more than it's weight in gold!

I think many more people are more sensitive to the naloxone than the manufacturer and the clinical trial studies indicated (unless they just disregarded their findings.) These doctors have got to realize that chronic bupe users can't get a rush by injecting Subutex!! I guess the DEA wants the Suboxone to be prescribed over the Subutex in case it gets diverted on the streets so it won't be as abusable. Typical bullshit....they can prescribe all the Oxycontin and now even worse Opana they want, but if the narcotic is intended to treat abuse, then they have to restrict it to the point that it is practically unavailable. Drug policy in America is the most bass ackward thing....but I'm not going to get worked up, one of my New Year's resolutions is to try to give up trying to fix things that are out of my control. I can only fix my life. Happy New Year to you guys!
JD


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 04, 2010 1:06 am 
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setmefree

Great info you added. I can't believe that I missed your post about the same side effects.....whoops! As far as the spitting, it actually slipped my mind because I have read on some having success with that. GREAT ADDITION

Yes, I am taking 12mg per day....well I am prescribed 12mg. SOMETIMES I only take 8mg, but usually its the full 12mg. I know I should get to as low a dose as possible to save money (all cash), and actually I was started on 24mg from the start, so I did come down a bit. I will try a lower dose at some point to see if that works for me.
It does make a lot of sense to try to lower the dose to take care of any unwanted side effects that come about. For myself, I don't have any major side effects from my dose as of now (knock on wood). I drink plenty of water every day, so that helps GI problems, and other than that no issues really I can think of thank goodness!!


As far as the 'gagging' thing, I have never experienced it yet. I might sound like a freak or something, but I actually like and enjoy the taste of Suboxone. Weird I know. I even like the smell of the bottle with the subs in them, the citrus-y smell.

Ohjoy, I think you got some pretty good replies in regaurd to your issue. Let us know how you have made out and if any of these suggestions have worked for you. Good luck with everything and take care all.

_________________
"The past is finished. There is nothing to be gained by going over it. Whatever it gave us in the experiences it brought us was something we had to know."----Rebecca Beard

"Have no fear of perfection - you'll never reach it." ---Salvador Dali


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jan 04, 2010 10:22 am 
So interesting how different, yet similar everyone is - various side effects or problems with Sub, different doses 'fit' different people better and so forth. Yet so many of us find that by trying each other's suggestions, we get some relief.
I never had problems with the 'gagging' thing, never minded the taste of Sub much. Just have had the intermittent struggle with some nausea or headaches that seem to come when it's time for a dose reduction (that's just me). And when I was on higher doses (over 8mg/day) the aching/stiff joints. Overall, I've had minimal complaints regarding my Suboxone.
I do think a lot of us have issues coming down off the higher doses because it's more of a "mental" thing. That's not to say anyone's withdrawal symptoms aren't "real". Just saying I do believe the mind plays a role in all of this. What helped me a bit in dropping (assuming one wants to drop or needs to for whatever reason) was just telling myself that if I feel bad with the dose reduction, I'll just go back up again, which is exactly what I did a few times. Ultimately after giving myself persmission to go back up for a few days, I found it to not be necessary and wound up reducing my dose like I planned to anyhow. Whatever....thanks to all who provided input here....I think it's gonna help somebody else who comes along with these issues!


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 Post subject: Are you OK?
PostPosted: Mon Jan 04, 2010 1:00 pm 
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Hey OHJOY!

I haven't seen any replies since your gagging post. Are you OK? I hope you are reading still and with us. I'd love an update.


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