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PostPosted: Sun Jul 17, 2011 4:59 pm 
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Hello all,

My name is Jay. I've posted in the past but it's been awhile. I've been on subs for a couple of years now and I want off! I suffer from depression and anxiety so that isn't helping my getting off any easier.

I am down to 3mg a day if I don't slip. I take 2 in the am and 1 in the afternoon. I am wanting to go down to 2mg this week. My therapist suggested that I try neurontin to help get off the subs. It's a non addictive med. Has anyone tried this before? When do you add something like this to the mix? Is it too soon? What about lithium? Does it help? What about Clonidine? It scares me because it's addictive is it not?

THanks for any replies.

Jay


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 17, 2011 6:25 pm 
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hi lamerjay". wellcome back . i dont know about neuronton. but ive been on lithium and it gave me ventrical tacky what ever ! it made my heart race. but that was just me. oh.' neuronton' is a seizure med,and pain med i think. but clonidine is about the #1 treatment for weaning off suboxone. ya". i'm on 16mg for about 16 months . and not coming off soon becouse of also my depression and anxiaty plus more. anyway' as you know". moderator's plus member's and other poster's will be here to help you with this soon. thank's johnboy.


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 17, 2011 9:59 pm 
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Hey Jay,

Welcome back!!!

I just wanted to let you know that Clonidine is NOT addictive. It's a blood pressure medication that is pretty well known for helping to ease opiate wd symptoms. It helps to calm the sympathetic nervous system. I was on Clonidine for months and months and months during my wd and I had no issues whatsoever discontinuing it. I was taking .1mg twice daily. When I decided to quit taking Clonidine, I went to .1mg once a day for a week or two, then I quit.

Because Clonidine is a blood pressure med, you have to check with your doctor before starting it and stopping it.....heck, you need to check with your doctor before starting ANY new med!!

As far as taking it before you quit Suboxone completely, you sure can. Some of us wait until we've quit Suboxone completely, but others take it as they get their dose of Suboxone really low. I honestly don't know if one way is better than the other?

I don't know about the other meds, so I'm gonna let someone with experience using those other meds comment.

Good luck!!

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 18, 2011 7:54 am 
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Romeo's right. Clonidine isn't addictive. At worst you might get some mild bounce-back hypertension when you come off it (raised blood pressure) for a little while but that's about it.

Is it too soon? If you're using the meds to treat the symptoms as they arise, I don't think so. When you reduce your dose, you will likely feel some symptoms 1-2 days after and they'd continue for a few days at most, then people usually stabilise on their reduced dose. Maybe some ibuprofen and / or clonidine only if you get uncomfortable in that time? I'm not a doctor, so this would be something to discuss with him / her.

Unsure about Neurontin. Things that have helped me? Valium (but be careful as it is addictive - helps anxiety, insomnia, muscle aches), Ibuprofen for muscle aches. Clonidine helped the runny nose and watery eyes and goosebumps. Strangely it made my eyes a bit dry.

Something that was quite effective for me was Doloxene. It's a mild opiate that's rarely used these days. More potent than Codeine but not as full on as Tramadol. It would take the edge off the detox, but wouldn't leave me detoxing more after. I'd notice that after I'd detox off the Subs with its help, i'd have some very mild withdrawal from the doloxene, but it was almost unnoticeable. I wouldn't resort to it until you jump off the Subs completely.

Regardless of what you use, detox will still likely be painful. The best thing to do would be to go slow. After getting down below 4mg I would do smaller steps than 1mg personally.

Be somewhere safe when you detox. Withdrawal is an altered state of mind and the compulsion to relapse can be intense at times.


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 Post subject: bump
PostPosted: Tue Jul 19, 2011 7:40 pm 
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anyone else?


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 Post subject: ya jump
PostPosted: Tue Jul 19, 2011 8:57 pm 
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thanks. :lol: lithium is a biological salt. manly for treatment of manic depression disease


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 19, 2011 11:02 pm 
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This is what I've learned about sub withdrawals and treating it: First of all, as was already said, Clonidine is NOT addictive. It's a BP med that is quite often used for opiate withdrawals. It treats the symptoms at the brain's level and makes the person much more comfortable. I've heard of people who've also used Neurontin. It's supposed to help with the RLS. Now I can't see using Lithium though. It's a very powerful, potent medication and I wouldn't use it myself unless I had the condition for which it was intended. But that's just me. Plus I don't see how it would help - it's for bipolar disorder (manic depressive disorder).

Good luck in your taper.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 20, 2011 12:28 am 
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I started taking neurontin about five years ago after a friend's mom introduced it to me. It worked wonders for my anxiety but I did not know that it was considered non-addictive. I haven't taken it in years so I cannot say this for sure but I think it would be at the very least emotionally addictive if not physically as well. However I had no problems with physical w/ds ending my treatment with it but I have never experienced physical w/ds with any benzos either. Neurontin is not in the same class as benzos though, at least that was my understanding.

I will say neurontin helped me more than any other medication I have ever taken to treat anxiety... specially for me panic attacks. I would definately do some more research on it. Sorry I couldn't be of more help.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 20, 2011 7:22 am 
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A little more on Neurontin: It's used for some types of nerve pain and even is used as a mood stabilizer. I was on it for quite a while some time ago. Because it treats neuropathic pain, it's said to be beneficial for opiate withdrawal symptoms (RLS). I've never heard of it being used to treat anxiety or of it being psychologically addictive, although I suppose anything could be. Besides, I don't know of every single use of Neurontin anyway. Just ask your doctor lots of questions before getting the script.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 21, 2011 7:26 pm 
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Thanks for the info. I go to the doctor tomorrow so I will see what she says.

It's day 4 and I haven't slipped so I'm getting there. Time to quit playing around and get off this stuff.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 21, 2011 10:58 pm 
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hatmaker510 wrote:
Now I can't see using Lithium though. It's a very powerful, potent medication and I wouldn't use it myself unless I had the condition for which it was intended. But that's just me.


Agreed completely. Lithium is a medication that should only be used to treat bipolar spectrum illness, and should be handled with care just like any other prescribed medication.

I don't agree with the often heard idea that lithium is "a very powerful, potent medication", as if it's more hardcore than other psych meds. It is just like any psychiatric medication. Take the correct dose and it's fine, take too much and it's toxic. I'm on lithium and have been for years. Once I stabilised on it, to me it's had less side-effects than any other psychiatric medication, including anti-psychotics and other mood-stabilisers.

I have a bit of an issue with this, because as a result of this idea people who hear I'm on lithium often think I'm "very crazy" or "very sick".

Lithium has had less side-effects for me than any other psych med I've been on. To me, SSRI anti-deps are much more mind altering than lithium. Lithium is an organic salt mined from the ground, and has been used to treat mental illness since pre-Roman times (though they didn't really know it at the time). It's neuroprophylactic (protects the brain from damage) and some believe neurotrophic as well (helps your brain grow back). Side-effects? Verbal memory is a bit outta sorts at times, and I get the Lithium shakes / tremor in the hands sometimes, though it's hardly noticeable. Since taking slow-release this is at a minimum and I can play guitar fine. Beats the massive weight gain and permanent tardive dyskenesia from all the anti-psychotics, the pain of coming off SSRI's and blunted libido.

When it comes to a psych medication you gotta stay on for life, Lithium is the one most decent docs are happiest to prescribe. It's not neurotoxic in the long term at correct dose, it's straight-forward and it's still the most effective mood stabiliser. And it's the only psych med around that you can say is 100% organic :D

OH and lamerj: Lithium won't helps your withdrawals one iota.


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 22, 2011 7:11 am 
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I guess when I said it's powerful, potent, what I meant was it's meant for a specific condition and could very well be powerful/potent to others who take it and don't need it. I was on Lithium myself for a time many years ago. Please accept my apologies if my thoughtless wording contributed to any negative stereotype. That was certainly not my intention, nor is it how I feel.

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 22, 2011 10:26 am 
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Hey, lamerjay. I completely identify with your hesitation about medication. I feel the same way at this point about adding meds, but I want to second (or third?) what Hat said. Clonidine is essential. You should make sure your blood pressure is actually a little high first, and maybe start only taking a part of a tablet. I had to slowly get onto the Clonidine because it was too strong at first. However, now it has become so important in my taper that I cannot emphasize it enough. It helps a LOT! It's not addictive, but believe me, you will be so glad you have it.

I also agree that Lithium is a great drug, but only for people who need it. It's very strong and mainly used for bipolar, I think, but I've never heard of it being used for Sub tapering symptoms. I could be wrong.....

Neurontin is a great drug. I don't take it, but if my doc would give it to me, I would. BTW, the only reason he won't give it to me is that he gives out no comfort meds at all. I order my Clonidine online. Neurontin's non-addictive and water soluble/very safe. I took it after an injury and had no side effects from it. It may make you feel a bit tired, but it may also help with some of the leg and back pains you might get from tapering.

I don't want to discourage you by saying this, but I just want you to be prepared for the dedication that tapering takes. You said you take 3 mg a day if you don't slip. Can I ask why you sometimes slip? If it's because you just feel like taking more, you may not be ready to taper. Tapering gets tough, and if you aren't in the right frame of mind, I cannot imagine how it would be possible to maintain the discipline it takes. If you sometimes slip and take more because you have symptoms from being at 3 mg, you aren't adjusted to 3 mg yet and should wait longer to drop. Getting from 3 to 2 mg is actually a large change and you may need to do it in a couple steps. Try to keep your drops low.

If you take extra one day, it remains in your system for a long time, so you end up not really knowing how much you are truly taking. Be very regimented. I record how much I take to stay accountable to myself, because I've failed at tapering so many times and a lot of that was because I thought it was no big deal to take extra here and there. If you drop and are having a really rough day, there's no harm in going back up to the dose you just dropped from for a day or few days, but don't take a bunch extra, because it will sink your taper. The toughest part of the taper comes under 2 mg, at least for me. That's when you will probably need the comfort meds, like Clonidine and Neurontin. I also use Melatonin for sleep, but not every night. You CAN do this if you really want to. I believe it's very possible, even though I'm not done yet. I guess I'd just understood when I started my taper how long the last little part may take so I could have been a little more mentally prepared. That's why I'm telling you all this. This takes effort and discipline but it can absolutely be done!!

Oh, as for the depression, I've dropped very fast before in the past. I ended up crashing and burning, because I because a total mental case. I've had depression on and off throughout my life, but I don't take meds for it at this time and don't really want to either if I can avoid it. The key to avoiding trouble with depression is a ssssllllooooowwww taper. It's taking me a damn long time to get off Sub, but I've spent no time in bed crying. I'm up and living my life. I'm not going into that black hole I went into before. I'm very sure it's because I'm doing such small drops and letting myself adjust. Sure, I still get some ups and downs, but for the most part, I feel happier as I get lower on Sub. If you need an antidepressant while you are tapering or need to up the one you're on already, that may be a responsible thing to do. Just take care of yourself and don't beat yourself up if you need something like that right now.

I wish you the very best!!

laddertipper

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 Post subject: Update
PostPosted: Sun Aug 07, 2011 6:13 pm 
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My depression is a lot better. Maybe the anti's are working. I have gone from 3mg to 2mg sub a day for about a week and I feel better than I have in along time. I have really had no issues with the drop from 3 to 2, in fact I have seen improvement. I am going to go to 1.5 in about a week. Anything I need to watch out for?


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 Post subject: Harder?
PostPosted: Fri Aug 26, 2011 6:01 pm 
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Went from 2mg to 1.5mg a day a week and a half ago. No problems going down .5mg at a time. Does it get harder or is this is as bad as it gets? Thanks for any replies...


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 Post subject: Plan...
PostPosted: Fri Aug 26, 2011 6:03 pm 
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Also, I plan to go to 1mg on Tuesday. Wish me luck...


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 26, 2011 6:51 pm 
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We are almost at the same tapering schedule. I went from 2mg's down to 1.50 a week ago. Dr. Junig suggests a couple of weeks to adjust but like you I want to try to move it down to 1mg next week.

You can always go back up a little if the taper is too much. So far my experience has been good with the exception of going from 3mgs to 2mgs. Had to do the 2.5, 2, 2.5, etc routine. But that method works well for me so I know how to do it.

The drop from 1.50 to 1mg is roughly 33%. It may be too much at one time so I will just cut the film in half again. Isn't it hard to work with the strips when they get so small?

And what amazes me is how a tiny little piece of Sub can affect your brain and body to such a large degree. It is some powerful stuff! But we can taper down to such a low mg that the jump shouldn't be so bad.

There are several of us at about the same taper rate. What I am hoping for is a grand success. There have been so many naysayers bashing Sub that it would be nice to show everyone how it's supposed to work if you follow directions and go slow.

Good luck to all who are getting ready to jump. I need as much support as possible.

Laddertipper, where are you in your taper? Care to join the small group and jump soon?

Darn, now I have anxiety......


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 Post subject: Neurontin
PostPosted: Fri Aug 26, 2011 6:53 pm 
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hey!
I LOVE NEURONTIN! they gave it in treatment and i have a script for the wd. it helps tremendously.
how long do you stable on a dose before dropping?
im ready to get this shit over with.
thanks!


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 Post subject: 2 weeks
PostPosted: Tue Aug 30, 2011 3:05 pm 
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I stay at a dose for 2 weeks before dropping and I drop .5mg at a time. Went down to 1 mg today. Keep me in your thoughts. Easy so far...


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 30, 2011 4:46 pm 
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Wow lamerjay, you're doing fantastic!! You're all the way down to 1mg and not having too much trouble, your taper is going great!!

Hang in there. You got this man!

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