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PostPosted: Sun Sep 18, 2011 10:47 pm 
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I am sick and tired of "holier than thou" individuals telling us that we should not be taking
any more than 2 mg a day of subs. I have been on 2-32mg of Subutex for the last four
years. I am stable on 16mg/day for the last 2 1/2 years and had my last relapse :twisted:
just before then. This is a miracle medicine and you take what you need to stop relapsing
and don't worry about "those" people. Life is grand :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: !


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 19, 2011 7:44 am 
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You know, I have actually had my own thoughts on this same subject myself over the last nearly 3 years. Since I started on suboxone, my dose varies from 16-24 mg (I take it for pain, too). Over that time I've been given a lot of shit about my dose. Sometimes I still am! Personally, I don't see why MY dose is anyone else's business or concern. Like I said, I've been on sub nearly 3 years and like you, no relapses. Isn't that what's important? What works for me doesn't necessarily work for everyone else. I don't tell anyone else to take the dose I take, so why should anyone else tell me to take the dose THEY take?

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 19, 2011 10:55 am 
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Agreed, If you are taking a dose that is too low and not holding your cravings at bay then why even be on Sub in the 1st place. What makes me even more mad than a person telling you your dose is too high (cause I don't care what some random person thinks about me) is when a Dr. tells his patient their dose is too high and forces them to take a lower dose that does not address their cravings. I take 16mg a day and like Hat I take sub both for pain and addiction.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 19, 2011 11:44 am 
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Who exactly is telling you your dose is too high? The medical community? Not mine, my two Sub doctors have both said more is better. It was me who said my dose was too high and asked to be lowered because of side effects.

No one here is saying that from what I've read so far.

But yes, you are correct in whatever dose you feel is good for you is nobody's business. The one thing I've noticed with Sub is that everyone is so different on how it affects them. We are all unique and know ourselves what dose works best.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 19, 2011 11:56 am 
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Hey Rule, I assumed he meant someone in his personal life, but that is a good question. I agree that I have never seen anybody here tellin people what dose of sub they should be on. I have however read a few posts where someones Dr. was making them drop or taper, which is crap. My advice to those people is get a new Dr.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 19, 2011 2:20 pm 
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2mg is well below the ceiling and isn't even a therapeutic dose for most people. Even the prescribing info. states that 4mg is the miniumum dose (for maintenence). So anyone who is saying this to you doesn't understand how the medication works.


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 21, 2011 5:42 am 
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ive been on 2-32mg of suboxone or subutex over the last 4 years no opiates no other drugs have had an occassional drink at bed time but other than that im good. currently 8-10mg /day (taking generic subutex) these doses are in 2mg form. sometimes people are like damn you got 5 per day and i am quick to remind them its only 10mg at the most. i think if it works then stick to it whatever it takes to stay away from relapse.


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 01, 2011 10:19 am 
Maybe they are just trying to help you and save you some money.

I've been on doses from 1 mg a day to 16, and I feel the best at 1-2. Higher than 4 mg your receptors become saturated, no norbuprenorphine can attach to the receptors, AND you're jacking up your tolerance. If you ever need surgery, you're not going to get pain relief from anything short of an astronomical dose of full-agonists.

Bupe is prescribed for pain in Europe as Temgesic in .2, .4, and .8 formulations. Why would they do this if it didn't work? Maybe Reckitt Benckiser just wanted to make some money off us junkies. Ever wonder why some docs will ONLY write brand name Suboxone? And now the nonsense with the shitty strips. If you fuck up and get it all over your teeth, more money for them!

Generic Subutex all the way.

You have to be willing to try it before you knock it. It sounded crazy to me too, until
I read up on it.


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 01, 2011 10:22 am 
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Quote:
Ever wonder why some docs will ONLY write brand name Suboxone?



There is only a name brand Suboxone (whether tablets or strips) - there is no generic suboxone. Just FYI.

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-I'm only responsible for what I say, not for what you understand.


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 01, 2011 10:27 am 
Lillyval wrote:
2mg is well below the ceiling and isn't even a therapeutic dose for most people. Even the prescribing info. states that 4mg is the miniumum dose (for maintenence). So anyone who is saying this to you doesn't understand how the medication works.


If this were true, why would buprenorphine be available for pain in .2, .4, and .8 pills? Temgesic? Hello??

Opiophile link (I can't add links due to forum rules but I will come back tmrw and add it)

All of these hardcore junkies doing bundles of heroin a day agree that bupe works better at low doses. When I'm on a computer instead of a phone I will post scientific studies backing low dose bupe.

Norbuprenorphine, which is what buprenorphine metabolizes into, is actually more "euphoric" than bupe itself. At more than 4 mg a day, your receptors are saturated and no norbuprenorphine can attach.

I have a question. Has anyone ever told all of you that "more works better" when they weren't making money from you/receiving kickbacks from RB?
Has anyone on generic subutex ever been told to stay at a ridiculously high dose?


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 01, 2011 11:46 am 
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What you posted above is the exact reason it is prescribed above the ceiling for addicts. You are correct in that below the ceiling it will give you more of an euphoric feeling and it works like a full agonist. This is what addicts are trying to avoid, which is why for maintenence for addiction it is prescribed above the ceiling. People in recovery no longer want the highs and lows and when above the ceiling and your receptors are saturated you just feel normal and can not get an euphoric effect. If taken the way you sugest below the ceiling where it is a pain med and you can get high from it then what is the point of an addict switching from oxy or hydro or whatever the case may be? Now they are just on another pain med that they can get the euphoria from. I am happy your low dose is working for you but I don't understand why you feel the need to tell those of us on higher doses that we are wrong and just being taken advantage of. I can assure you my Dr. gets no reward for prescribing his patients Suboxone, he has switched me to generic subutex. To be honest I am offended by your accusations, I can assure you I have done a lot of research and am not so weak minded to just throw my money away. I have experimented with my dose and at 16mg is where I feel the best and who are you to tell me otherwise? Temgesic is used on people who have no tolerance to opiates to treat pain. The doses you list below would be like giving an addict a hydrocodone and expecting them to stop withdrawing.


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 01, 2011 12:04 pm 
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Well put, Breezy_Ann. I don't think I can add much to your post, so I'll leave it at that and just say I agree.

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-I'm only responsible for what I say, not for what you understand.


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 01, 2011 12:25 pm 
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What works for one person does not necessarily work for another. Ironic, you assume that because you've found the perfect zone & situation for yourself that the entire rest of the world must follow. I'm sorry, but it just doesn't work that way, and this is how the seeds of self-righteousness are sown. Offer your experience but hold the judgment. You slammed me on another thread for admitting continued addict behavior with sub. All it did was make me feel defensive and wish i hadn't said anything (until someone else chimed in, thankfully). It was the first time i actually admitted that to anyone besides myself, and the therapeutic benefit of airing that dirty laundry was HUGE. WTF are we here for if not to be honest and seek (& offer!) support? I don't find it supportive for someone to tell me i'm wrong and should do what they're doing... I am interested in hearing other's experiences and stories. I NEED to hear them! Every one i've read so far has given me a small piece of wisdom, hope or a seed of salvation (no, i'm not religious). And i am gathering these precious seeds into my own personal arsenal for recovery.
You can offer what works for you without judging or condemning... That is what people need. Your experience may be the piece that clicks for someone and saves their life. But not if they're gagging as it's being jammed down their throat.

And by the way, "generic subutex all the way" did NOT work for me. We are individuals with totally different & subtle brain & body chemistry. ONE SIZE FITS ALL doesn't work!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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 Post subject: Well put!
PostPosted: Mon Oct 03, 2011 7:58 pm 
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Breezy, you nailed it! Every person's brain and body chemistry is different. I've been on doses ranging from 4-24 mgs and have found that 16 mg is my sweet spot. At 8 mg my cravings aren't addressed properly. The reason Suboxone-brand buprenorphine is dosed well above Temgesic doses is that for it to work for treating addiction Sub must remain above the ceiling level. This is NOT to say that people taking low doses do not have success. Some people do fine on 2 or 4 mgs. But it is the cycle of falling below the ceiling level and feeling the need to dose again and again that is the addict behavior. You shouldn't feel the "need" of taking another dose - your receptors are supposed to be saturated in order to banish the cravings consistently. That is why dosing once-a-day and around the same time each day is better - it doesn't reinforce the "habit" of taking pills throughout the day to try to feel better.

I have had people insult me about my "high" dose and I've witnessed people insulting other members quite often lately and in the past. I pay for my 16 mg through my insurance, and I consider every milligram necessary and justified. Now, if I was self-pay I would probably try to force myself to live on less. Who knows.

This is not an attack on any particular person and is not aimed at any particular person. I respect every person on here and would like to receive respect myself, so again I will say that I realize some people do fine on really low doses. To each his own.

James


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 03, 2011 8:49 pm 
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I wouldn’t really call it a miracle medicine but it def helps a lot of people and that is great. To make it a miracle, our bodies would not become dependent or addicted to it and we could stop whenever we want and fell ready to so. Just kidding lloooooll

But to your post WHO IS EVERYONE???

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 03, 2011 9:57 pm 
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Also, no one receives kickbacks from RB. My brother is a pharmaceutical rep, and now they aren't even allowed to pay for lunches for a doctor's office, or give out any promotional materials other than samples. It is a myth that "big pharma" somehow pay doctors for prescribing their products.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 04, 2011 12:15 am 
I don't mean any disrespect to anyone in the struggle against opiates.

I think a concern, though, is tolerance. Compare it to a full-agonist. According to RB themselves, bupe is 20-40x more potent than morphine.

http://coretext.org/show_detail.asp?recno=6481 (citing that number above)

So 16 x 20, at a conservative estimate, is 320. 320 mg of morphine is the equivalent of what you are taking per day, at a conservative estimate. This can mess you up if you ever need a full-agonist for surgical reasons. Also, it probably isn't very good for your brain..but your brain may be able to repair itself, I don't really know, but someone else on here said that and it may very well be true. I don't see how taking that once a day is any better than redosing. I dose 2-3 times a day, and what you said about redosing for some "effect"..it may be true, but I don't know anyone who feels anything fun from bupe. I redose because I have a hyperactive thyroid and therefore, my metabolism is very fast. I will only be dosing 2x per day when I reach my goal of .5 2x per day.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 04, 2011 2:54 pm 
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Good point, Ironic....just like I don't like to be judged about my dose, I don't really have the right to judge others about their dosing schedule. If multiple daily dosing works for you, good! I know that is how people are supposed to dose when treating chronic pain as well.

I don't know if bupe harms the brain....but I accept that it may, and that I may pay the piper later in life. But it keeps me out of jail and out of trouble, so I find the risk allowable. One thing, when I was in the mental ward for a week in July, they didn't let me have my Sub. I went 6 days without it, and the withdrawal was pretty mild. I was surprised, and now I don't worry so much about ever having to go off of it.

I just switched to the Sub films yesterday, and I do feel that I must have absorbed more of it. So I'm going to try to get by on 8 mgs instead of 16....wish me luck!

James


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 04, 2011 3:07 pm 
creel1950 wrote:
Good point, Ironic....just like I don't like to be judged about my dose, I don't really have the right to judge others about their dosing schedule. If multiple daily dosing works for you, good! I know that is how people are supposed to dose when treating chronic pain as well.

I don't know if bupe harms the brain....but I accept that it may, and that I may pay the piper later in life. But it keeps me out of jail and out of trouble, so I find the risk allowable. One thing, when I was in the mental ward for a week in July, they didn't let me have my Sub. I went 6 days without it, and the withdrawal was pretty mild. I was surprised, and now I don't worry so much about ever having to go off of it.

I just switched to the Sub films yesterday, and I do feel that I must have absorbed more of it. So I'm going to try to get by on 8 mgs instead of 16....wish me luck!

James


Good luck, James! You are right, everyone is very different. I am really glad you like the strips, but I hated them..bc they would get stuck on my teeth :-P. I'm a bit uncoordinated and I guess I have a small mouth.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 04, 2011 5:04 pm 
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You know, Ironic, I really love irony, but I hate sarcasm, which is what your reply to me was. Hello!??

It's obvious from your other thread that you are misinformed based on the sources you are using. I am referring to the PDR while you are referring to opiophile.com. Temgesic is prescribed for pain, while Suboxone is prescribed for addiction. A 0.2mg dose of bupe has the effect on the order of a Lortab but is very short acting. A maintenance dose of Suboxone has a 36 hour half life in order to keep the receptors engaged and prevent cravings in addicts. And no, a 16 mg dose of Sub is not equal to 320 mg of morphine. If you had watched even one of the videos that Hat posted a link to, you would have understood that buprenorphine's effect is not linear, and in fact, a 2mg dose has roughly the same opiate effect as a 8 or 12 mg dose. The difference is in duration.

And yes, I do agree that the pharmaceutical companies, RB included, are a bunch of greedy bastards. But that doesn't negate the research and clinical success of Suboxone. Maybe many people would or could get by on a lower dose, but by your own admission you can "feel" doses below about 4 mg, which is counterproductive to maintenance treatment, which was what I was referring to in my post.

Like someone said above we're here to support one another in our recovery. We are happy to read about what works for you. But don't claim that everyone including Dr. Junig, who is not only and M.D. and Ph.D. but an expert on Suboxone who has treated over 500 patients with it, is wrong. That is just insulting and inappropriate.


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