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 Post subject: stop lying.
PostPosted: Fri May 15, 2009 8:14 am 
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what a joke this site is.

I submitted a rebuttal to the Dr.'s latest post and of course, it was not approved.

After a 15 year IV heroin habit, I am over a year clean. free of sub. free of all drugs. no cravings. no obsession. I would gladly go through another CT heroin detox than the hell of prolonged sub detox. Doctors lie.

the good doctor and others will try to tell you to stay on sub forever or you will relapse. I'd prefer if he didn't comdem me to relapse simply because I'm living drug-free.

I no longer live in the problem, I live in the solution.

stop lying.

Jupiter


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PostPosted: Fri May 15, 2009 1:00 pm 
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You are certainly entitled to your feelings and opinions but may I ask why you are so pissed off and what post of the doctors did you respond to that was deleted? Who should stop lying and about what? And, if you would, please describe your taper and subsequent detox from Suboxone so that I/we may understand were all of this animosity is coming from?

With all due sincerity, congratulations to you for living drug free. I think for a lot of us the use of Suboxone for recovery/treatment is far more than just to stop the withdrawals. Although that may be what initially draws us in, being addicts we DO want the easiest way possible out of difficult situations, it is the comfort in knowing that we CANNOT use while taking Suboxone that keeps us taking it. It is a security blanket, if you will. Being on Suboxone kills the urge to use because: A.) If one were to use, it would be pointless. B.) Because you feel so "normal" while on Suboxone, your brain is free to think about regular day to day things. C.) The preoccupation with finding the next fix is gone because we no longer need to fear "getting sick".

I say to each his own and you are included in that. Some doctors are not as informed as they should be or don't care enough about their patients to tell them the good, bad and indifferent regarding Suboxone but I have also found that a lot of patients only hear what they want to and/or don't read the fine print.

Best of luck to you.


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PostPosted: Fri May 15, 2009 1:42 pm 
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I get many, many comments to the blog; I don't want it to be filled with confusing and inaccurate information because some people actually use it to guide them with Suboxone, at least to some extent. Of course I always prefer that people talk to their own docs, but I recognize that some docs do a better job of communicating with their patients than others.

I agree with 'finally'-- if you see a 'lie', tell me about it! 'Stop lying' is a pretty broad statement, and I don't know what you are referring to. I try to point out when I am stating an opinion, when I am stating a scientific fact, and when I am stating something in-between, for example an issue that has scientific or medical agreement but that has not been proven scientifically. If you have a specific problem with something I have said, let's hear it!

As for your addiction, I don't condemn anyone to anything-- believe it or not, I don't have that much power! But in MY OPINION, any addict who claims to have no cravings one short year into sobriety is either a liar or a fool. As my past psychiatrist used to say, 'it's good to know'-- better to be aware of the addict inside than to pretend he isn't there. I started talking that way-- like you-- a year or two before my 'big relapse'-- the one that almost killed me 8 years ago. I was pretty cocky about things back then, and probably thought I wasn't having cravings. Now I look back at the absence of humility and realize that like you, I was an accident waiting to happen.

One year is nothing-- my relapse took 7 years, although I was very active in recovery for most of that time. But again, most people can do a year standing on their heads, through will-power alone. Do what you want, but my advice is to take yourself down a notch-- that way you have fewer people to look foolish to when relapse occurs.

As an FYI, we all heard your comment about the lying going on here--- so I'm sorry, but if you choose to spout venom again I'll just delete it. But if you want to be 'civil' feel free to write about all those lies.


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 Post subject: Your own opinion
PostPosted: Fri May 15, 2009 2:10 pm 
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Yes, you are certainly entitled to your own opinion.

Dr. Junig really is a good doctor. How many doctors do you know take the time to actually respond to questions from people like this?! So far, I've only known one.. Dr. Junig. Think about it, the man went to college, medical school, and 2 residencies. He speaks from personal experiences and he has treated hundreds of addicts. I honestly don't think he's doing all of this just to 'make money'. If he wanted to make money, he'd probably drop psychiatry and treating with suboxone and return to anaesthesiology. Dr. Junig is a great doctor in that he really cares about us. He goes out of his way to help others who are suffering by giving advice even without pay. He writes articles in his blog about addiction as well. Think of all the time that he sets aside just to do these things alone. Ever been to a pain clinic? Try getting a hold of one of them on a Saturday sometime, or any doctor for that matter. My wife was in kidney failure once and the stupid primary doctor didn't want to call back!

Yes, you may be sober now but can you predict the future? Of course not. He couldn't either. He relapsed himself after 7 years and nearly lost everything. Think of the guts it takes for him just to admit that and have all of that in the open alone especially being an M.D. because most doctors are very judgemental of each other.

How can I judge if he is right or wrong? Well, given the fact he knows much more about addiction then I do and that he has treated hundreds of addicts, he has a lot more statistical data than I do. I have known a few addicts in my life (Father, mother, one friend) and judging by their behavior, I'd say the doctor is right. Relapse is common. Never say never because someday you may relapse. If that happens, you'd be begging for his help.

I had a friend like you, a close friend.. Notice the had. He's dead. How did he die? He relapsed, and his life went to shambles and he blew his head off with a shotgun. He was heroin free for 12+ years. I'd talk to him 3-4 times a week and we were very close. He knew about all my struggles with pain meds and eventually my treatment with suboxone. I tried to get him to do it but he was too stubborn to try suboxone. One day he just stopped calling, and a bit later I started poking around and found out he relapsed and shot himself. I miss him he was a great person and very intelligent, its a real shame. Everyone turned their backs on him and I was his only friend. Unfortunately, he called me on the day he shot himself and I was in a meeting and couldn't get the phone. I have to live with that for the rest of my life now, 'what if I answered the phone?'.

Is is so bad to take Suboxone long term? Who cares. Its called 'harm reduction'. If it prevents someone from overdose/death/prison then great I'm all for it. No one seems to have a problem talking about shooting bags of heroin for 10 years, or popping 50 vicodin a day for 10 years! But LORD OH LORD DON'T TAKE SUBOXONE FOR MORE THAN A FEW WEEKS! YOU MIGHT GET ADDICTED!!!!!!. From what I've read, long term opioid use isn't harmful to the body (well, Heroin = dirty needles, infection from 'cut' byproducts, etc but thats problems not opioid related). We are lucky that addicts have something like Suboxone available to them these days and that the medical community is starting to recognize and be able to treat opioid addiction without having the DEA come down on them.

But hey, if something besides Suboxone has worked for you, there is a section in the forum regarding that sort of thing. Please post and tell others how you were successful. Maybe your method would work for someone else too. But, don't tell horror stories about Suboxone. What if someone considering suboxone read your post and decided against it, only to overdose, wind up in prison or end up dead because they figured 'wow, Suboxone withdrawal is worse, I should stick to heroin its easier to get off of'.. How would you feel?


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PostPosted: Fri May 15, 2009 6:46 pm 
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I will say that I'm sincerely glad however someone gets clean and stays that way as there are many ways that using has of killing us. I will also say though, that in my own personal experience the months I spent after getting out of detox were absolutely horrible! Suboxone maintenance has allowed me to stop using heroin and other opiates and not be in a prolonged experience of post acute withdrawals. It has also given me more freedom than I felt I had in traditional recovery programs in that the majority of the time I don't even think about using now :idea: Everyone has the right to their own opinions and I'm sorry that your experience with Suboxone hasn't changed your life as it has mine. I would point out though the many different places on the site where it is requested that we abstain from making direct accusations of others and instead discuss our own experiences. One thing that I've noticed often in my experience in recovery is that many who either choose, or are unable to start or stay on Subxone are jealous by how "easy" a Suboxone patient's recovery often is. I will admit to feeling that way as well during my first time in treatment when I was going through terrible withdrawals and saw other opiate addicts actually seeming to enjoy themselves after starting Suboxone. It made me angry that they didn't have to hurt and struggle like I was and so I would often times put them down or pretend that they were less "recovered" than I was (even though at that point I wouldn't know recovery if it bit me, man if I could have gotten that lucky!). I of course know that was jealousy and nothing more, it makes me sick when I think of the months I continued to make myself suffer needlessly as I fluctuated between using and martyrdom (I wouldn't even take tylenol). I'm truly grateful for the years of happiness and normalcy that getting clean and Suboxone have given me. I hope that all opiate addicts can find a way of living a halfway normal life again and that one day opiate addiction will be percieved by the majority as the medical condition that it is.
Thanks again for the site, it does have alot of great info on it don't let the Suboxone haters bring you down :lol:

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PostPosted: Fri May 15, 2009 10:04 pm 
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firstly...I'd like to apologize for my tone. It certainly was angry, and for that, I am sorry. It just irks me when folks are sold a 'bill of goods' regarding suboxone, without being aware of both sides...positive and negative. Too many folks are uneducated about suboxone when they walk into a doctor's office and take what the good doctor has to say as gospel. Truth be told, all that is necessary to become licensed to prescribe suboxone is an 8 hour online course.

If you choose to stay on sub for life....that is your decision. I choose not to be dependant on any opiate to get me through my day today. I have no hesitation in sharing my experience with suboxone...which was not positive. I believed (as was told to me) that it was the 'easier, softer way'. Not my experience.

As for your assertion that I am either a 'fool or a liar' because I do not experience obsession nor cravings, is just downright insulting. It is my truth. Actually, my obsession to use was lifted very early on in my recovery. I haven't thought about dope at all for over a year. zip. nada. I am not cocky, nor am I afraid. It just is. You see, drugs weren't my problem, drugs were my solution. I have a new solution in my life today...and am confident that as long as I keep on the path I'm on...I'm safe and I'm protected. I have no fear of narcotics, they simply hold no power over me. I walk free. My willpower is non-existent. I survived on willpower for 8 years....only to relapse after a surgical procedure.

There is absolutely nothing special about me. I followed direction. I am a recovered addict. never cured....but I no longer suffer from the manifestations of addiction. and I began this journey completely powerless, completely leveled and hopeless...by taking simple steps I have been infused with great power to help others get free.

That is the greatest gift of recovery....helping others to find their own truth and get free.

again...my apologies for the tone of my first post. Who am I to judge any one else's decision? All I can offer is my own experience. take it...or leave it.

Namaste


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PostPosted: Tue May 19, 2009 11:52 pm 
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suboxdoc wrote:

As for your addiction, I don't condemn anyone to anything-- believe it or not, I don't have that much power! But in MY OPINION, any addict who claims to have no cravings one short year into sobriety is either a liar or a fool. As my past psychiatrist used to say, 'it's good to know'-- better to be aware of the addict inside than to pretend he isn't there. I started talking that way-- like you-- a year or two before my 'big relapse'-- the one that almost killed me 8 years ago. I was pretty cocky about things back then, and probably thought I wasn't having cravings. Now I look back at the absence of humility and realize that like you, I was an accident waiting to happen.
.


talk about 'absence of humility'....? who are you to judge/condemn me as 'an accident waiting to happen'. again....just because I choose to live a life in recovery, and not chained to another opiate for 'maintenance'....does not mean I am doomed to failure. There are recovered addicts/alcoholics just like me....free. If I stop doing what enabled me to recover...then yes....setting myself up for failure. As long as I remain vigilant in my recovery....I harbor no fear of relapse....nor do I experience the dreaded obsession/craving phenomenon you also mandate.

please do not judge my experience by yours. I learn from the experience of others...not judge them by mine. why don't you take the same advice that you offer....."respect the decision of others".


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed May 20, 2009 3:34 am 
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I don't think doc is judging you merely by his own experiences. Lets not forget that he is in fact an M.D., and has treated hundreds, maybe even thousands of addicts. So, I think he has an adequate sample size in order to judge certain behaviours. Maybe he's just speaking from that angle and not just his own.

I think he most likely also respects your decision, but he mentioned in a post that he lost 3 friends in the last year to opioid addiction. I'm sure that weighs in and maybe he feels more strongly about maintenance because perhaps they'd still be alive (he mentioned something to that effect in a post). Doctor wise, I'd much rather have a doctor who actually gave a crap

Perhaps you harbor no fear of relapse, but what if you were put in a situation where relapse would become that much harder to avoid? Suppose tomorrow you were hit by a bus and your back was broken in 3 places, and you were shot up with Dilaudid for 2 weeks in the hospital, and sent home with lots more for pain. In that case, any of us would have issues with that sort of situation.


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PostPosted: Wed May 20, 2009 12:49 pm 
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Jupiter,

I think what's been posted by the doctor and others have been more than apt, reasonable responses to your words.
There remains, however, something I feel compelled to say.

You said, "...I have been infused with great power to help others get free...".
Do you honestly, REALLY believe that your hateful, judgmental, and angry words on this forum are in any way helpful to others?
You sound like the epitome of the very real reasons why so many of us feel judged and shamed when trying to attend your program while remaining on Suboxone. I find it most evident in your claim to have been "infused with great power".
I don't think you truly understand what it means to help others by discussing your own success.
Just because you say your way is currently working for you in NO WAY means that it's the RIGHT WAY for everyone!!
Please stop telling those of us who choose a medicated recovery that it's somehow not recovery. (That's what it sounds like you're saying.)
I (and others on this forum) are here for SUPPORT in recovery.
How many times, ways, and places does the doctor have to say that this is not a forum for debating the pros and cons of Suboxone? Yet we seem to have to continually point that out.
I'm just really tired of coming here for support only to find myself feeling that I must defend my decision.


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PostPosted: Wed May 20, 2009 4:45 pm 
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If you read my post...you'd see that I respect anyone's decision to stay on a maintenance drug. your choice...not mine. read the last line of my post. I have just found that most folks I know on sub....don't know crap about sub. and yes, that makes me a bit sad.

My experience is mine alone. I chose NOT to stay on sub. Why should I be doomed for relapsed and be chastised for my choices?

and...if you took the time to read the Big Book of AA...anyone who goes through the steps is infused with great Power to help others recover. that's what we do. absolutely nothing special about me. anyone who has an honest desire to stop using is welcomed in any fellowship. people walk into meetings all the time high, drunk....whatever...and they are welcomed...actually, they are the most important people in those meetings. i don't care if you're taking suboxone....if you want to stop....we can help.

again....read the last sentence of my second post. who am I to judge? if you feel judged....that's on you....not me.

hope you find the peace you're looking for.

jupiter


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PostPosted: Sat May 23, 2009 3:06 am 
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They either lie or haven't got a clue as to what they are talking about. I am so lost and confused. I have been to several in the last few months. I never get a straight answer. The one thing I do get is when you ask them if they know of ANYONE that has ever been able to get off of it is "no." That or they will look down at the floor and shamefully shake their heads. I DO hope there is a VERY SPECIAL PLACE IN HELL for the ones pushing this.


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PostPosted: Sun May 24, 2009 3:10 pm 
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They either lie or haven't got a clue as to what they are talking about. I am so lost and confused. I have been to several in the last few months. I never get a straight answer. The one thing I do get is when you ask them if they know of ANYONE that has ever been able to get off of it is "no." That or they will look down at the floor and shamefully shake their heads. I DO hope there is a VERY SPECIAL PLACE IN HELL for the ones pushing this.


I have no obligation to offer apologies to you for what you have experienced, but it is so very unfortunate that you have been subjected to this type of treatment. There most certainly are individuals who have successfully ended Suboxone treatment, and I could direct you to a place where they will share their experiences with you.
It is really sad that for every one good Sub doc out there, there are five that should not be able to dispense it. Sad but true, atleast from what I have experienced myself. Luckily, I have been able to find other sources of support and education with my Suboxone treatment- and because of that, I have decided to do what I can to help people like you. I am in college earning a degree to become a professional who educates people about addiction, but most of what I wish to educate the public about is suboxone. There is nothing I can do to change what other health professionals do or say, but I am doing something about giving people the honesty and respect they deserve.


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PostPosted: Wed May 27, 2009 11:16 am 
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jupiter wrote:
If you read my post...you'd see that I respect anyone's decision to stay on a maintenance drug. your choice...not mine. read the last line of my post. I have just found that most folks I know on sub....don't know crap about sub. and yes, that makes me a bit sad.

My experience is mine alone. I chose NOT to stay on sub. Why should I be doomed for relapsed and be chastised for my choices?

and...if you took the time to read the Big Book of AA...anyone who goes through the steps is infused with great Power to help others recover. that's what we do. absolutely nothing special about me. anyone who has an honest desire to stop using is welcomed in any fellowship. people walk into meetings all the time high, drunk....whatever...and they are welcomed...actually, they are the most important people in those meetings. i don't care if you're taking suboxone....if you want to stop....we can help.

again....read the last sentence of my second post. who am I to judge? if you feel judged....that's on you....not me.

hope you find the peace you're looking for.

jupiter


talks like Jupiter and sounds like Uranus. Just sayin', but I do agree with the others on this one. Please don't take away the meaning and helpfulness of this board with bullying and arguing your point all the time. If your defending yourself all the time then what is your purpose here other than trying to inflict your bad day or opinions on everyone else? This forum has helped me through a good many obstacles and I understand that everyone is entitled to their opinions but sometimes it's better left unsaid. I hope this does not offend you...to much anyway. Thank you.


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 Post subject: Wow!
PostPosted: Thu May 28, 2009 1:25 am 
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You are either one of the very few people who have enough self control to actually stay clean or you may just be fooling yourself in the short term. Yes, you are clean now and that truly is something to be proud of, but I'd be interested to see how you are honestly doing 5 years from now. I wish you the best but the odds of success simply aren't in your favor. Best of luck and stay safe!


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 03, 2009 4:11 pm 
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Thankfully, 'self-control' has absolutely nothing to do with it.

Drugs weren't my problem, drugs were my solution. Gratefully, I've been granted a new solution, a solution that I worked hard to get....still do. My solution is no longer another opiate.

If your choice works for you....fantastic. If not.....we can help.

i don't judge your choices, please refrain from chastising mine.

peace
jupiter


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 04, 2009 10:49 pm 
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Just a friendly reminder:

This is not the place to debate what kind of recovery is best. This is also not the place to debate the virtues of Suboxone.



The place to do these things is on some other forum.



Thank you and have a good night.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 08, 2009 12:14 am 
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Thanks 'D of a Q'-- I'll just call you DQ for short, in honor of my latest addiction!

First I want to say thanks to the members and moderators for the way you all handled that 'stop lying' post. It is nice to feel less alone with those people. I receive many nice comments from people, but maybe it is because of the addict in me that it only takes one mean comment to bring me down. I know that the world is just a tough place sometimes, but I am always surprised at the meanness that comes from some people. I am impressed the way you all let the person say his/her piece, but didn't back down.

As I look at this thread, I am grateful for those of you who have joined me here. I think of the times I was badgered by the Jupiters of the world on other forums... I was shocked by them at first, as they aren't like people I have met before in the recovering community. I met some great recovering friends over the past 16 years, and they would never have sounded like Jupiter, regardless of their thoughts about Suboxone. We all were so careful with our recoveries, knowing that it was so easy to slip up and lose everything-- we would never get anywhere near 'taking someone else's inventory'! At meetings, even if a person came in spouting nonsense, the others would say something like 'what you do is your business, not mine, but here is what works for me'. For a person to introduce himself by saying 'stop lying'-- that tells a great deal about where the person's head is at. And knowing that relapse always follows resentments, I know where such people usually end up. I have been quoted out of context for saying this type of thing; I usually am making the comments as a warning, or as a general observation-- not as a wish for ill upon another. It is like watching weather radar for long enough to know what a line of red stuff moving toward the east means for your friend planning a golf outing-- when I say 'it is going to rain on you' that doesn't mean I wish it would rain! But I might say something like that if the person brags to me that he is a better person because he doesn't carry an umbrella!

I have come to realize that the reason there are so many Jupiters is because they are always replaced, as soon as they disappear. If you hang around the typical anti-sub sites you will eventually notice the pattern; greater and greater anger at Suboxone, and then the person is suddenly gone. But there is always someone at that same stage of addiction ready to take his place; a person who is still in the middle of that fight within himself, thinking that he will be fine as long as he just keeps telling everyone how great he is doing. We all know that there is only one 'fix' for that anger and resentment that fuels their comments! I see their anger toward us as really being anger at addiction-- anger at the permanence of addiction, and anger at the fact that they 'caught' the disease of addiction. To a person lost in the fantasy that some day they will wake up 'normal', a person on medication must be quite a threat to that fantasy!

I am no more 'pro-sub' than a pro-choice person is 'pro-abortion'. I leave it open with my patients; if they are doing well on Suboxone, I am fine with that. If they want to try to go off Suboxone, I will share my thoughts and share what I can about relapse prevention, and I will help them taper off Suboxone-- with the agreement that they get back ASAP if the experiment fails and they use again. The way I see it, the presence of Suboxone allows a bit of flexibility in the choice over whether or not to stay on Suboxone; if a person tries to make it without Suboxone and does well, MORE POWER TO HIM!!! But to be frank, that is not what usually happens. Instead, most people want back on Suboxone, either after a relapse, or just because of the intensity of the cravings that they had forgotten about. In my opinion, docs who prescribe Suboxone should ALWAYS take those people back, provided they were honest about everything and didn't go off dealing Suboxone on the street. That is the one thing that I have a hard time forgiving, as it puts the future of buprenorphine treatment at risk, endangering the lives of many, many people.

I really only meant to say a quick 'thank you' to everyone. It is nice, not being alone anymore. Please feel free to share your thoughts about what you think would improve the site-- send me an e-mail through my practice site at fdlpsychiatry.com.

Have a nice night,

JJ


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