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PostPosted: Tue Aug 16, 2011 8:58 pm 
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Ok long story short..

I know taking less Suboxone not all the receptors get filled making more Norebuprenorphine become metabalized which is a full agonist like oxycodene of heroin.. therefore making you feel it more....

So everyone is saying less is more as far as feeling the medication more like a traditional full agonist:

And I understand the ceilling to a certain expect its probably around 4mgs give or take...

I dont understand why I'm still having cravings for other opiates and im taking about 4-6mgs of suboxone a day...

Also i find that dosing atleast 2x a day helps the most with my cravings... I cannot do once a day dosing...

Dosing 1x day is crap for me i have a super fast metabolism athough the sub stays in my body i only really feel it for about 6-8 hours then i feel nothing and start craving another dose at about 12 hours... SO i have to dose atleast every 12 hours personally.. The plasma half life is only about a couple hours.. .that is what really counts

I'm not sure if i should try going up to 8mg a day... Or try to the less is more approach to allow more NoreBupe to be metabolized which acts as a full agonist..

Does anyone have experience ?

Bupe is one Hella strong opiate... I should NO way be having cravings for opiates while im on it;;

I just want to feel normal with no cravings... Should i be taking more or less u think?

I really DONT wanna relapse again and go all that crazy stuff again please help people...


Last edited by cire113 on Tue Aug 16, 2011 9:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 16, 2011 8:59 pm 
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also my dr doesnt know anything hes really sad


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 16, 2011 11:39 pm 
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Hi cire, 4 mg is usu. considered the minimum dose to be at the ceiling level. Maybe it's not enough for you. You might need 6 and maybe as much as 8 mg. Also, at doses under 4 mg (you might be taking 2 mg 2x/day) the bupe acts like a full agonist and doesn't have the 36 hour half life. So splitting a low dose like 4 mg might not be a good idea. If you are feeling WD don't be afraid to increase your dose a little. 8 mg / day really isn't a very high dose. When I was on maintenance I was on 12mg, and I wasn't coming off a huge opiate habit.
Good luck,
Lilly


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 19, 2011 8:37 am 
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HI, sorry I haven't written in a while. I was fighting a nasty infection in my stump after my second amputation.

I am on 8 mg of Sub in the am & 8 mg in the pm. I have been having some cravings. I feel like I have to swallow a pill all the time. I was on antibiotics & Motrin 600 Mgs. I wonder if anyone else has this problem. I don't want to crave and I wasn't before. Why now? I have been on subs for 15 months. My dose used to be high, back in November. (32 mgs for pain mgmnt) but my doctor changed it to 16 mgs slowly & was fine. What could it be?

Hope everyone is OK.

Love Queenie


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 19, 2011 12:10 pm 
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I agree with what Lilly said. And understand that with regard to dosing, it's extremely individualized when it comes to how much it takes to get rid of ALL of your cravings. That's why everyone isn't on the same dose. It might take less to get rid of withdrawals but it's not uncommon to require a higher dose to take care of the cravings.

I hope this helps.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 19, 2011 5:50 pm 
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I agree with the others but make sure you keep your DR updated on this because you most likely need an increase. But you don’t want to do that without talking to your DR first so you don’t run out of meds and then are put in a real shitty spot.

But one thing I want to point out to you man I saw your one statement “Bupe is a very strong drug I still should not be having cravings while I am on this” or something like that. Man no matter how much meds you are on or how long you are clean you will always have cravings it is part of our lifes, as in addicts or addicts in recovery. I have been clean for 6 years no relapses nothing but I still have cravings all the time. These cravings will most likely never go away so you need to get into counseling to learn how to deal with it and accept the fact you will have these cravings.


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 20, 2011 1:14 am 
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Hi Queenie, it's good to hear from you. At one point my doc raised my dose to 16 mg/day because I was having cravings, and I STILL had cravings at that level. I have to believe it's psychological and not physical cravings, because at that dose your receptors are 98% saturated. Maybe having to take pills all the time is a trigger, or maybe just the stress of having one health crisis after another is doing it. I feel for you, I know how powerful cravings can be. All I can suggest is that when you think about using, play the tape all the way to the end. Don't just remember the high, but remember all the misery that came with it. In the meantime distract yourself as much as possible. If you can't get out, try to get on the phone with someone. And as always, feel free to PM me anytime.
You will be in my thoughts,
Lilly


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 20, 2011 9:20 pm 
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We all have to remember that suboxone is just one of the many tools we are given to recover. I had thought of using at 24mg and I have thoughts at 3mg, I'm a f***ing drug addict and will probably have to deal with cravings the rest of my life. Think of it this way, if you were diagnosed with being diabetic and were given insulin. Is that all you would do? Or would you change your diet, exersize, watch you weight. My point is suboxone is amazing and I would have never gotten clean without it but there is alot more to my sobriety than sub alone. Counceling, AA (if that's your thing), sober friends (no exeptions on that one), a strong support group, and most of all enjoy your sobriety and your new life and know how to react when using thoughts pop into your head. Your definately not alone just try to look at suboxone as a piece to a very comples puzzle.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 04, 2011 12:20 am 
cire113 wrote:
Ok long story short..

I know taking less Suboxone not all the receptors get filled making more Norebuprenorphine become metabalized which is a full agonist like oxycodene of heroin.. therefore making you feel it more....

So everyone is saying less is more as far as feeling the medication more like a traditional full agonist:

And I understand the ceilling to a certain expect its probably around 4mgs give or take...

I dont understand why I'm still having cravings for other opiates and im taking about 4-6mgs of suboxone a day...

Also i find that dosing atleast 2x a day helps the most with my cravings... I cannot do once a day dosing...

Dosing 1x day is crap for me i have a super fast metabolism athough the sub stays in my body i only really feel it for about 6-8 hours then i feel nothing and start craving another dose at about 12 hours... SO i have to dose atleast every 12 hours personally.. The plasma half life is only about a couple hours.. .that is what really counts

I'm not sure if i should try going up to 8mg a day... Or try to the less is more approach to allow more NoreBupe to be metabolized which acts as a full agonist..

Does anyone have experience ?

Bupe is one Hella strong opiate... I should NO way be having cravings for opiates while im on it;;

I just want to feel normal with no cravings... Should i be taking more or less u think?

I really DONT wanna relapse again and go all that crazy stuff again please help people...


I personally don't believe that going up will stop your cravings, but many on here would disagree with me (I am personally at 1.25 mg per day.)

You are going to have some cravings. Bupe isn't a full-agonist, it just isn't satisfying the way dope is, no matter how much you take. Personally, Suboxone didn't work for me until I was at least 90% ready to stop. If you are, the cravings are something that will fade over time, as your drug life gets put behind you. It is a slow healing process, and time is the best treatment for the cravings, unfortunately.

Good luck to you.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 28, 2011 2:16 pm 
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You might need an increase, but I will say that cravings are not just related to physical reasons. Its still possible to get cravings on Sub. I remember when I first started my taper almost a year ago, I went from 7 to 6. That small drop in dose for whatever reason lit some kind of fire inside me. It was the first time in a long time that I had craved using opiates... when I first got sober I had the odd alcohol or even odder cocaine craving but not opiates. I remember actually forcing myself to go to a damn 12 step meeting, which made things worse but it got me out of the house and I started focusing on slightly different things.

I have also noticed that I tend to gamble a bit more during my first few days of dosage drops, but I am so stingy that I never bet more than 10 bucks on a game, so its not an issue for me.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 29, 2011 2:22 pm 
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i believe a much higher dose of suboxone will take care of your craving!! and yes every one is not the same". but the medication' suboxone is!! if every one was on a much higher dose of subs nobody would be complaining about cravings.
and i am speaking for my self also. the doctors keep raising or lowering sub doses on patients because we and the docs
need to be 100% correct and open about how we treated our self in the past.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 29, 2011 7:24 pm 
johnboy wrote:
i believe a much higher dose of suboxone will take care of your craving!! and yes every one is not the same". but the medication' suboxone is!! if every one was on a much higher dose of subs nobody would be complaining about cravings.
and i am speaking for my self also. the doctors keep raising or lowering sub doses on patients because we and the docs
need to be 100% correct and open about how we treated our self in the past.


Interesting opinion. If this were actually true, no one would relapse while taking buprenorphine


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 30, 2011 2:48 am 
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ya" maybe i should lower my dose and find out what is real relapse . could i be relapsing on subs alone and nothing other? :lol: if you have an open mind". then i think any one can still have cravings. suboxone just adds more sugar to dull it out.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 14, 2012 1:30 pm 
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i was at 24mg daily for several months and the cravings were still coming on strong. i started to seek out sweets and thus started putting on weight. I lost about 100lbs due to opiate abuse. at my recent dr visit in january he bumped me up to 32mg daily. it has really helped with my cravings. everyone is different though! good luck!


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 14, 2012 8:48 pm 
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Just to clarify. With cravings are we talking about a desire to use? Or actual physical withdrawals?

If it's a desire to use. Of course you're going to get cravings sometimes on Suboxone. Even people on methadone get cravings. It's all a part of being on ORT. Just like people on nicotine patches / NRT still have the odd craving to smoke - opioid replacement therapy is exactly the same.

If you expect some magic pill to come along and make your cravings disappear, maybe alter your expectations, not your medication.

Recovery is about handling the desire to use, not making it go away. Sub / methadone just makes it a bit easier.

It's not advised to use bupe to seek the agonist effects of norbupe. It kinda defeats the purpose of taking bupe no?


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 15, 2012 1:32 pm 
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tearj3rker wrote:
Just to clarify. With cravings are we talking about a desire to use? Or actual physical withdrawals?

If it's a desire to use. Of course you're going to get cravings sometimes on Suboxone. Even people on methadone get cravings. It's all a part of being on ORT. Just like people on nicotine patches / NRT still have the odd craving to smoke - opioid replacement therapy is exactly the same.

If you expect some magic pill to come along and make your cravings disappear, maybe alter your expectations, not your medication.

Recovery is about handling the desire to use, not making it go away. Sub / methadone just makes it a bit easier.

It's not advised to use bupe to seek the agonist effects of norbupe. It kinda defeats the purpose of taking bupe no?


I agree with tearjerker. It is strange in the fact that I rarely think about using(have the desire to pickup). When I do I remember what my life was like when I used and don't ever want to go back to it. So I guess for me it is a choice. Thinking about using is separated into 2 different parts for me. Do it and go back to a fucking SHITTY existence or don't do it and remain normal, that is what stops my desire to take opiates. I think my dosing has nothing to do with it but that is just me. I never FEEL the effects of using SUB nor would I want too because it would make me want to use more just to feel it. Like you are stating.....

"Dosing 1x day is crap for me i have a super fast metabolism athough the sub stays in my body i only really feel it for about 6-8 hours then i feel nothing and start craving another dose at about 12 hours... SO i have to dose atleast every 12 hours personally.."

Are you craving SUB?? The thing about feeling it is what is making me wonder. Why do you want to feel it? I guess what I am asking is: are you wanting to go get opiates or are you just wanting to FEEL the effects of the SUB. Please help me understand.

Wish you the best
Dana


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 15, 2012 1:44 pm 
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bennyblanco wrote:
i was at 24mg daily for several months and the cravings were still coming on strong. i started to seek out sweets and thus started putting on weight. I lost about 100lbs due to opiate abuse. at my recent dr visit in january he bumped me up to 32mg daily. it has really helped with my cravings. everyone is different though! good luck!


I hesitate to speak for someone else, but normally when we talk about cravings like this, it's about a craving for opiates, not a craving for suboxone. Usually people base their dose on withdrawals and their individual cravings. This is why dosing is so varied. It could take only 8 mg to satisfy the physical cravings for opiates that a person will have, but the next person might need 16 or even more. It's not the same for every single person - especially in the beginning of their treatment. Granted, 32 mg is a high dose, however, I believe in another post this person is also dosing for pain.

These cravings we speak of are not the same as some vague "desire to use" that anyone would fight whether on or off suboxone. This is the PHYSICAL need that our brain has from being accustomed to having the opiates and it leads to our cravings them.

I just wanted to add what I perceived as what Benny was talking about. I hope I didn't put words into anyone's mouth.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 15, 2012 2:57 pm 
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Hatmaker I understand what Benny is saying. I wasn't really talking about him. I was trying to understand what the thread starter cire113 wrote. I'll explain a little about my situation. I was taking two 8mg strips a day; 4mg morning 4mg lunch 4mg afternoon 4 mg night. My dose was also pain related (Thoracic Disc Problems.) I, on my own, started taking my dose 1 morning 8mg 1 evening 8mg because I would always miss a dose during the day. I never once started craving to take a dose. If I missed a dose I would have back pain but I would never feel different when I took a dose. Understand. That is why I don't understand. Maybe I just took his post literally; the craving suboxone part to feel it. If he took it to do like you stated to subside actual WD, physical need for opiates, or to stop cravings for opiates; I get it.

I do get Benny and I am glad he got his dose worked out. I too had to increase my dose from 12 to 16 initially.

cire113 wrote
"the sub stays in my body i only really feel it for about 6-8 hours then i feel nothing and start craving another dose at about 12 hours"

So Hatmaker if I understand what you are saying is that he feels the need to take opiates so he needs another dose of SUB. to stop the cravings for opiates. That makes sense to me. I guess that is where I was misunderstanding. A good bit of people here say that they do not feel it and need more. So by saying that I guess it is the fact that they are craving opiates or feeling DTs and need to sub to stop that. I guess the craving another dose and feeling it part was what I was confused with. It all makes sense now.

Thanks for the insight
Dana


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 15, 2012 9:43 pm 
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Quote:
Figuring out why addicts are so prone to relapse is a major area of research. One culprit is the phenomenon of craving, or the powerful "hunger" for drugs that can linger months or years after an addict quits using. Scientists have discovered evidence that this craving may be partly a physiological phenomenon, related to the long-term changes in brain function that addiction causes. Now accustomed to functioning in the presence of drugs, the addicted brain, in essence, has become unable to function normally in their absence.

Craving is also partly a conditioned response to powerful cues to use drugs that the (recovering) addict may encounter, such as people, places, and things that are associated with drug use, Leshner says. These cues evoke powerful emotional memories of the "high," and can trigger near-irresistible urges to use. "Even in the absence of drugs, associated stimuli become capable of producing drug craving," he adds. People recovering from addiction usually are therefore advised to avoid friends and locations that have previously been associated with using drugs. "When something is highly rewarding, we are likely to remember it vividly and also to remember the circumstances under which we encountered it," says Steven Hyman, M.D., director of the National Institute of Mental Health. "Even after years of abstinence, people may experience profound cravings and risk relapse if placed in the surroundings of their former drug use."


hatmaker wrote:
These cravings we speak of are not the same as some vague "desire to use" that anyone would fight whether on or off suboxone. This is the PHYSICAL need that our brain has from being accustomed to having the opiates and it leads to our cravings them.


That is true. This PHYSICAL need you speak of in the brain manifests within the individual's perception as a psychological desire to use. They are one and the same. It just depends on which angle you take. Craving is a symptom of PAWS as well as acute withdrawal.

The desire to use when experiencing the phenomenon of craving is hardly vague at all, but being on methadone and Suboxone can dull it to the point where it feels vague. For those who attempt abstinence it is an intense state of anxiety and rising tension that builds over minutes / hours / days, getting progressively uncomfortable until breaking point. They're brought on by the by the long term neurochemical imbalances caused by our brain's dependence on opioids, be they Sub/methadone/whatever. It can take months / years for those long term changes to correct. Until then our brain tries to get what it knows will fix it in the short term, and we experience craving.

So far the best thing I've found for dealing with cravings is urge surfing... or calling someone to drive me the fuck outta town and away from the ghettos.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 16, 2012 8:42 am 
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It's tough talking about cravings, because I believe there are actually two kinds of cravings - physiological AND psychological. In other words, there are those based on actual, physical cravings - those that can be satiated by taking suboxone. Then, in my opinion, there are still psychological "cravings". These are the ones I look at as the cravings people still have even though they are at max sub dose though they are still experiencing said cravings (or they've been off opiates for years). They may even believe them to by "physical", but with enough opiates in their brain (or none needed), that simply isn't likely.

Everyone has their own idea of how to define cravings and I don't even know if there's one singular definition of the word for our usage. I highly doubt it. I guess that's why it's so important for us to explain what we mean when we use that word.

Thanks for sharing that with us Tear - quite interesting.

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