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PostPosted: Wed Feb 12, 2014 6:09 am 
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"We believe that addiction is a lifelong illness that requires lifelong treatment."

So why not stay on heroin forever? Seriously Junig, riddle me that. Why not inject pharmaceutical diamorphine legally every day?

I've noticed that Junig seems to have some sort of unconscious "love" or affinity for buprenorphine. As if it is a miracle drug and can do no wrong, with no side effects. Well I'm here to tell him after being on it for 5 years, I wish I had never started. If I was on it forever, I assure him that I would end up dead.

It has killed my appetite and I am now unhealthily thin. I am 5'11" and weigh 106 pounds. I have no motivation to do anything and it has decreased the longer I've been on Suboxone.

He tries to compare it to how people need blood pressure medication for the rest of their lives, but it couldn't possible be more different than that.

I want off this horrible drug.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 12, 2014 9:22 am 
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I realize you may be new, but this particular forum is for people who have made the choice to remain on bupe indefinitely without having to argue or explain our reasons. you have come to the wrong place to debate this issue. we know that we have an illness, and have chosen to treat it with medication for the time of our choosing. why not heroin for life? do you hear yourself ? Your very tone is argumentative and insulting. for many members here, heroin addiction nearly killed us, and is a drug that must be dosed more than once a day, and is a full agonist. buprenorphine is a partial against medication for the treatment of opiate addiction, dosed once daily in most cases, not a legal high as your post implies!
please re read the explanation of what this particular part of the forum is for, and if you can't oblige.... stay out! sorry to be flip with you, but like it reads at the top of this section, we don't wish to argue, or defend our personal medical decision to treat our disease with meds ! the mods may correct me if I'm off base here, but this post was the first one I read today... in the clearly marked bupe for life section . btw, Dr. junig supports buprenorphine treatment passionately, because he knows that it improves and saves lives! he has seen more than his share of od deaths in addicts, and had devoted much of his time to educating people about a medication that could prevent many of these needless deaths! he keeps this and several other websites free of charge to help addicts like us, and I am personally grateful to have someone like him in our corner! drug addicts in today's society don't exactly have many good doctors like Dr. j on our side looking out for our best interests and keeping us informed about things that are relevant to our well being! perhaps read more of his articles at the talk zone website and watch his videos on you tube, and realize what an asset he is to all of us instead of insulting him, and us !

Lizzie


Last edited by lizzieshug2013 on Wed Feb 12, 2014 9:32 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 12, 2014 9:28 am 
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I guess you could just go back to your doc..why did get on it?
People blame sub for everything under the aun.
And this dr j here, he will amswer your ?'s..in fact the answers are all in the Talk Zone posts....

good luck.......r


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 12, 2014 9:32 am 
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Hi there,

I think that you are in a very scary place right now 5yrs. You are railing against suboxone because of what you have experienced...but you should understand that what you have gone through is not what most of us have experienced ourselves.

First of all, you mentioned on another post that you never had an addiction before you took suboxone. This has been your DOC the entire time, and you never took it as it was intended to be taken. So, essentially you have been living in active addiction for 5 years. Just because you are using a drug to get high that most of us use to keep our addictions in check doesn't mean you have been in recovery.

You have proven my point in your post. Comparing lifetime maintenance on buprenorphine to using heroin every day for the rest of your (very short) life is ludicrous! For you, maybe it is the same, since you were never addicted to anything else. This is not the case for 99% of the other members here. It is a ridiculous comparison, and if you had ever had to spend time on the streets looking for your fix every day you would get that. If you had ever had to watch a friend you used with overdose right in front of your eyes and not be able to do anything to stop it, you would get that!


I can understand your anger. But, you need to realize that coming here and bashing suboxone and Dr. J is not going to help you.

This forum has been a haven for so many people that are trying to get help, and Dr. J is very knowledgeable about this drug. Yes, he understands it MUCH better than you do.

Please go back and read the rules of the forum on the main page and try to understand what we mean by not debating which is better, and avoiding personal attacks. Let's be respectful ok?

Thanks,

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 12, 2014 9:49 am 
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hey, I was clearly upset by your post, and I apologize for being harsh with you. there are people who have difficulties with this medication, and want off for one reason or another. we actually have a couple of sections here at this forum, just for those people. on those sections you will find lots of great tapering advice, and support for when you are feeling down and going thru withdrawal. members who have been there, and even some who haven't yet, willcheer you on, celebrate your victories with you, and help dust you off, should you falter, even me. we are all here to support one another, so I'm sorry if i overreacted. that's what sets this forum apart from others on the internet, the support, and lack of bickering and fussing with each other. we all know there are other forums out there on the web for that kind of thing and we strive not to be like them.
if you have questions or need help with tapering our jumping this forum is the right place to come for support. many members here are full of valuable tips and info to help you along the way! so welcome, and feel free to look around the forum for the sections on stopping Suboxone, and side effects etc. that I mentioned.

lizzie


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 12, 2014 9:56 am 
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Thank you for that Lizzie, you are absolutely right, we strive not to be like that!

As I said 5yrs, you are welcome here. I really hope that you get the support you are looking for.

Q

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 12, 2014 10:55 pm 
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How you feel about YOUR medication is your business that should be taken up with your doctor. Maybe you can personalize a treatment plan that includes ending Suboxone treatment. Because, I think to myself, if you hate it so much, why are you on it for five years? Aren't you in control of your own destiny and don't you have a say in the direction your life goes? You are the author of your next moment, and if you don't want to it to include Suboxone, great, make it so.

As for the rest of us, everyone is in a different spot. Some are comfortable on indefinite medication-assisted treatment (something that is supported by 50+ years of peer-reviewed studies), as opioid dependence is a chronic MEDICAL condition. Others are in the Preparation or Contemplation stages of change, considering termination of treatment at some point. Some are actively tapering off. And still others have ended their treatment entirely and still seek support at this forum. Different strokes.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 13, 2014 12:10 am 
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You say that heroin addiction nearly killed you? Suboxone is nearly killing me. My mother is begging me to get hospitalized. I am 6 foot and weigh 106 pounds because Sub killed my appetite and gave me an endocrine disorder.

Don't know where you read that I didn't have an addiction, I was on heroin for three years and a host of other things. I've been an addict for 7 years, marijuana, oxycodone, benzos, bath salts, Vicodin and obscure research chemicals. So lets get that out of the way. Also don't know where you read that I get high from it, I take about 4-6mg a day.

All I'm saying is that it is not a benign drug that Junig and the "miracle drug" crowd say it is. Read about all the endocrine disorders, hair loss, tooth loss. I've seen all his videos and writings, and anytime that ANYTHING negative regarding buprenorphine is brought up, he goes on a rant about how its all lies.

" But, you need to realize that coming here and bashing Suboxone and Dr. J is not going to help you. " I'm not trying to help ME, I'm trying to help YOU! I know exactly what section I posted in, and I'm trying to warn you all of the dangers of this stuff. Go talk to people who have been on it long term, after the "honeymoon phase" wears off and you have no motivation, no drive, no spark, no appetite, no libido, endocrine disorders, and do nothing but stay in a darkened room all day unable to work.

By the way, it is a partial mu agonist, a delta antagonist, and a strong kappa antagonist, which provides nearly as much euphoria as mu agonism. Kappa agonism induces stress, antagonism induces bliss. Which I suspect is why people are so damn happy when they start taking it. Not to mention that it is 25-40 times as potent as morphine.

All I want you guys to take away from my experience is that it is not a miracle drug... There are side-effects and dangers to this medication... Just please don't think its harmless. I'm going to have to be hospitalized when I come off it and I might even die.

I'm sorry if I upset any of you, I'm just furious at this drug and what it has done to my life, and what I'm about to go through.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 13, 2014 12:21 am 
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I have to share my experience as a way of illustrating that your life is what you make of it, while on maintenance. While on maintenance, I gained the trust of my family and recovery community. While on maintenance, I became gainfully employed, returned to school, and obtained a college degree. While on maintenance, I moved into my own home, bought a car, and started GIVING BACK to other people.

I actually don't KNOW anyone who was on maintenance, stayed 100% abstinent from other substances, and had their physical and mental health DECLINE.

I don't mean to be sarcastic or mean when I say this, and I mean this literally: I hope that you are seeking adequate medical treatment for your weight loss and apparent endocrine disorder. And if Suboxone really and truly is the root cause of that, then I suggest that you work out with your doctor a treatment plan to discontinue your prescription.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 13, 2014 12:25 am 
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Your just making people here in recovery scared bro. I get your upset, but you cant come to a recovery forum and bash the one thing that saved most of us from killing ourselves on painkillers. I get your in pain and need to lash out , but don't mess with peoples heads. You named a few of the drugs you've messed with in the past. All of that has to be thrown into this equation. I'm not judging you, I'm just saying your wrong for lashing out. I wouldn't be here if I didn't get into a sub maintenance program. I was on it for 4 years and I'm healthy as ever. My teeth aren't falling out because I brush them. Don't come here and harass people bro. Really? Common. There has to be a better way to handle this right? Sorry to hear your sick.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 13, 2014 1:13 am 
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you know what,I apologized for coming off mean at first but now I'm just gonna tell you that you're in the wrong place for all your anti sub bs. your right it's no miracle drug, but the loss of obsession ti use drugs produces a miraculous ability to participate fully in recovery, something it seems you've not been doing during your time on sub. we are very well informed about the medication we are taking to save our lives, so your so called warnings are no more than thinly veiled pot shots at Suboxone and Dr. junig because you are angry, and if your honest it's only at yourself. you didn't use the drug properly,as part of a recovery plan, and you've indicated in other posts here that you abused it as your drug of choice... for a buzz! you are clearly looking to argue, and get people stirred up here. this is clearly against the rules of the forum. please knock it off. none of us need to explain our medical decisions to you, or wish to argue with you. your mind is clearly made up, and that is fine. but dig deep and find out where that anger is really coming from. bupe could have been a blessing to you had you used it properly, for the other addictions you now say you also had, but you, yes, you, chose to abuse it, so the consequences are yours, not ours. misery loves company man, I understand that you need to vent. the more appropriate website for your particular complaints would be subsux..com. I think you'll feel quite welcome there.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 13, 2014 1:14 am 
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This is where we read that you get high from it:

never got REAL treatment, I just started on Sub because it gave me a great buzz. So I continued that for 5 five years like a fool... My doctor won't see me anymore and I have 58 x 8mg strips left.

Now I know I should be tapering, but I just can't! That little buzz has been a part of my routine for nearly 1/5th of my life! It gives me energy if I feel fatigued, makes me feel better if I'm sick, calms me down at the end of the day, relaxes me... I don't use any other substances or have any hobbies, its the ONLY thing in my life that gives me any "warmth." I just CANNOT stop taking ~3mg at a time about 5 times a day.


So, the truth is that you've never used suboxone as it's meant to be used. You are still in active addiction and sub is your current drug of choice. How can you blame suboxone for ruining your life and health when you are not using it to be in recovery???

We don't need to be lectured about the fact that there can be negative side effects from sub. When people decide to take suboxone it should be a well-researched, life and death decision. Yes, there are side effects. That's why we have an entire section devoted to them. They can be annoying, and for a very few people they can be unbearable. However, most people should not be warned away from suboxone because some people are abusing it and a few react badly to it. For the vast majority of us, the medication is life-changing and the side effects are manageable.

If you are wanting to make an honest attempt at tapering off suboxone then feel free to stick around. There are plenty of people who will support you as you taper down and/or stop suboxone. If you're just here to bash suboxone, Dr. Junig, and the people who have been helped by sub, don't waste your effort. You will just end up getting banned if you are here to troll.

Amy

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 13, 2014 1:29 am 
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Five years, I ask that you refer to me as 'Jeff' or Dr J' or Dr. Junig'-- Thank you.

They do treat addiction with heroin in Great Britain. They use morphine in several European countries. Buprenorphine has the advantage of a ceiling effect, which eliminates the cravings that occur when treating addiction with heroin.

Please refer to the earlier comments as well; your addiction treatment is your decision. If you liked using better, I don't know why you don't just go back to it. You wouldn't even need to go through withdrawal. Just go back to oxy or heroin-- and pretend buprenorphine never existed. If you were my patient, I'd be happy to show you the door-- and let someone into treatment who wants to be there. I have about 90 people waiting.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 13, 2014 2:16 am 
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5 years, just so you know...not many people here claim suboxone to be a miracle drug...it sounds like YOU wanted it to be your miracle drug that you could abuse(dosing 5 times a day for a buzz) and have have your life magically be perfect at the same time....and while i too once thought that i could use drugs to feel awesome and not have any problems or addictions, i found out that was not the case when I REALIZED THAT MY LIFE HAD BECOME UNMANAGEABLE. thats step 1 buddy.

if you want recovery... guess what? you have to START

and i really wouldn't be surprised if the problems you are having are the results from your use of bath salts, that stuff really messes your body up big time...and if you are abusing suboxone, who's to say you aren't still using other drugs including bath salts.


oh well, if you want to stop it, then go to detox and get off...thats about the only advice i can give you

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 13, 2014 8:58 am 
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Thank you Amy for posting that quote, it's exactly what I was referring to.

5yrs, you are obviously here only to stir up trouble. Do you think that you are the first person to come here posing as a caped crusader trying to save us all from this "evil drug"? The majority of the people here have researched this drug extensively. We have heard all of the bad stories, and some of us have experienced some of those side effects ourselves. If you bothered to look through our topics you would find that we have had many discussions about all of the issues you have listed.

Yes, Dr. J is our founder and he is responsible for the existence of this website. He has his own opinions about the validity of the claims about suboxone. HOWEVER, he does not censor the content of this website, or place any limits on what we discuss here. If you have a problem with Dr. Junig, this is not the place to address it. I would point out for your own benefit that it wouldn't be wise to take him on....but whatever floats your boat. :roll:

If you can't follow the rules of this forum, then you are putting yourself in danger of being banned. It's not hard to keep your membership here. If you have concerns, start a topic in the side effects section, and let's discuss it like adults. If you need help tapering, start a topic in the stopping suboxone section and ask for advice. We don't have a problem with you expressing your opinions, but you MUST do it in a way that doesn't spread false information (making claims that are not supported by proof) or challenge the decisions of others. There are many, many people here who feel very strongly that suboxone saved their lives. You are not allowed to try to convince them that they are wrong, or call them out and bash them when they don't agree with you.

I would suggest you think about this before you post anything else.

Qhorsegal2

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 13, 2014 10:07 am 
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5, please go find some real help . Listen to your mom and others. Your are indeed in need of detox and a real recovery plan. I feel for you. I do. i remember being out there like you are now.
Help is out there. ASK FOR HELP MAN..
24 hours ago i wasnt happy with your post. But im reading an addict in real trouble here. Yes, this forum is of great help and not the place to bash sub. Wroug forum for that.
But as and addict in recovery (3) years, i can tell you there is real help out there. . Find ot and save your young life..
Detox 12 step ..whatever. you can get heathy again . Idk..i just see this this morning after reading the thread and felt the need to say this to you, wherever you are..
best of luck to you .. Razor 55


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 13, 2014 10:57 am 
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FiveYearsOnSubox said, "I'm not trying to help ME, I'm trying to help YOU!" Thank you for your help, but I have to agree with razor53 in that I think it's time you start trying to help yourself. YOU are clearly the one who is in massive trouble right now.

Stop fucking around with warning us about Suboxone and get some help. We get people like you on this site every couple of months who "warn" us about Suboxone, we've heard it all before, nothing you're saying is new to us.

As has already been stated, if you need help tapering, we have plenty of experience and would be happy to help you, but Suboxone is only part of your problem. Your addiction is what's killing you.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 13, 2014 1:12 pm 
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5 years, if you really are a legitimate sub patient seeking relief from the frustration you have experienced during your treatment, then I'm sorry. If I could know that, I'd accept blame for what I'm about to say..

But I smell troll. Sorry guys but don't waste your energy on this, this is not someone who wants help, sorry you got roped into it. You know how I know?
This guys name is 5 years on suboxone. Not 4, not 3, but 5 yeArs. That's what he says in the introductory sentences in his post. According to the story he's been in pain for a while, this didn't just start now. This site has been on a few years. Bupe for life, is a brand new thread and the most inappropriate place to post something like this but also something a troll is gonna see as a most desirable target. 5 years. The name is just a synopsis of the story he created in his post. I mean really???
At first you offered some candid, calm advice, and he went on about evil drug evil drug it seduced me evil drug blah blahhhh.
Troll soup.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 13, 2014 3:37 pm 
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All_apologies13 wrote:
5 years, if you really are a legitimate sub patient seeking relief from the frustration you have experienced during your treatment, then I'm sorry. If I could know that, I'd accept blame for what I'm about to say..

But I smell troll. Sorry guys but don't waste your energy on this, this is not someone who wants help, sorry you got roped into it. You know how I know?
This guys name is 5 years on suboxone. Not 4, not 3, but 5 yeArs. That's what he says in the introductory sentences in his post. According to the story he's been in pain for a while, this didn't just start now. This site has been on a few years. Bupe for life, is a brand new thread and the most inappropriate place to post something like this but also something a troll is gonna see as a most desirable target. 5 years. The name is just a synopsis of the story he created in his post. I mean really???
At first you offered some candid, calm advice, and he went on about evil drug evil drug it seduced me evil drug blah blahhhh.
Troll soup.



I was on heroin since 16, quit at age 19, got on Suboxone and stayed on it until now, and I am 24. 24-19=5. Five Years On Suboxone.

You don't think I want help? Fuuuuck you. I've been on the phone trying to find a rehab for the past THREE DAYS.

Why the hell would I invent a story like this?? That is the most bizarre thinking I've ever heard!!

Its also bizarre to me that me trying to warn the Suboxone-lovers about the REAL dangers would be considered trolling. That says a lot about your mentality regarding this drug.

Someone please delete this account so I stop getting replies from all you people.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 13, 2014 4:01 pm 
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Like many people have said, everything negative you have to say about buprenorphine is not the collective experience of the active group here. There's plenty of anger but it's more suitably directed at what we see as the real problem, which is addiction itself, and not just one chemical or opioid in particular.

I don't feel like you are in any position at this point to use buprenorphine as the cause of your multitude of issues as you are still on it, have been on it unstably and seem to have some other possible underlying medical issues that have not been looked at professionally. It sounds like you haven't had any appointments with your Suboxone prescriber due to a 'falling out,' and discharge around 6 months ago? Also, it's not like you lived even 20 years completely healthy, without medical issue, then went on buprenorphine and your life fell apart and degraded. You are 24 years old, have been on chemicals since teen age years, it's difficult to ascertain what is really going on. I understand the desire to want to lash out at one issue or another but in reality, it's probably a very complex situation with a multitude of factors at play.

I think your energy would be best suited and focused on something else right now: get some medical care, it sounds like you are in a bad spot mentally and physically. Inpatient hospitalization would likely be a good place to start, and it sounds like people within your circle are thinking/seeing the same thing? I'd recommend somewhere that will deal with the physical issues you are having as well as the concurrent mental health and chemical dependency issues.

If even a few months from now, off buprenorphine completely and completely abstinent from chemicals and moving forward in life, you want to say that many issues you were having while on buprenorphine melted away and corrected themselves completely, I'd be really interested to hear about it. I personally look at all sides, I am a long-term member of SubSux as well as this forum because I read all information and all individual views about this subject.

I do find the timing odd, that you had been on buprenorphine for 4 years without apparent major issue, to the point that six months ago you weren't sure coming off it was a good idea at all, then after a discharge from your prescribers practice and seemingly limited amount of buprenorphine ticking away with no real plan B, all this anger is coming out. Just look at the situation honestly and maybe this place, that place or, perhaps both, can be a real resource for you at this difficult time.

AT any rate, good luck. No one deserves to suffer, I hope you find the right path for you!

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