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PostPosted: Fri Apr 15, 2011 9:59 am 
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If you are planning on starting or have already started but are not long term yet (Over a Year) I think it's really important that you hear my story before starting or staying on. In my opinion many folks in here swear by the drug and if anyone says anything negative they are bombarded with crappy comments. On that note I hope everyone reading this pays attention to the good and the bad.

:arrow: SOME PEOPLE, DUE TO THE LEVEL OF THEIR ADDICTION, NEED SUBOXONE LONG TERM OR FOR LIFE.

I get that. I really do. Some of us need it for more reasons than one but my point is, some don't. We all have different levels of addiction. A 10 pill a day habit is not the same as someone that has gone through the opiate gauntlet of low dosage pills, then to oxy, to Heroin...etc. It's just not. I think we can all agree on that.

So if you are planning on starting sub just know that the side effects are pretty damn severe. The most common seem to be the ever present constipation, sex drive reduced, testosterone levels in men dropping, having little to no energy, depression and a ton more depending upon who is telling their story. On my end I have all of the above and developed Central Sleep Apena. For those that do not know what that is, to put it plainly, I just stop breating while I sleep. No blockage, I just stop breathing. Sometimes for up to 10 seconds. Never had it before. Never had any accidents where my spinal cord or brain was injured. Those 10 seconds add up and put a toll on my body. I wake up tired from that and the sub kicks my ass.

:arrow: WHAT ABOUT SURGERY?

If you are on a high doseage, forget it. The solution seems to be to stop the sub if it's planned but what if it's not? What if you have a heart attack and have to be cut open on the spot? Good luck with that. The amount of pain meds they would need to pump into you is life threatning. Dr. J said that most physicians will refuse to give you the amount of meds it would take to knock the sub off the receptors because either they are scared or just don't have the knowledge.


:arrow: IS IT WORTH IT TO STAY ON THIS DRUG ANY LONG THAN YOU NEED TO? SHOULD YOU EVEN START SUB IN THE FIRST PLACE?

I am on the fence over this one and again, this is only my opinion. I think if you are truly serious about being sober and being done with abusing opiates then why not tough it out and deal with the withdrawl IF YOU CAN. When it's done, it's done. Looking back on my situation, and for those that don't know, I was taking over 100 Norco 10/325's in a 4 day period. My withdrawl was horrible. I was in day 4 when I decided to go see a doc for sub. If I could do it all over again I would of stuck it out because while the full opiate withdrawl is more violent, it's shorter term. Sub withdrawl? Not as violent but much longer lasting.

For those that will drop the "You are not a doctor" or "You are a Suboxone Hater".........Nope. I'm neither. I'm just a guy that is giving his opinion on the matter.

:arrow: IS THE JUICE WORTH THE SQUEEZE?

If you are having a really hard time getting sober and are questioning if you are strong enough to stay away from opiates or are knee deep in abuse then yeah, Sub can be a miracle drug for those with heavy addiction. On another note, what if you can develop a support system, go to meetings, work hard to stay sober and give that a shot first? Before, as someone else on here put it, "trading the witch for the devil". ?????????

For all the new folks, regardless of what you decide to do, I wish you the best and again, Sub saves lives. At the same time though, be prepared. It's a hell of a drug. It is powerful and can screw your body up pretty good but if the alternative is death? Well, sub is a pretty damn good option.

It's great for some. Not for all. Just educate yourself and read up on everyone's story in here before you decide to hop on the sub train. If I could do it all over again, I would of stayed clear of sub. That's just me though. My addiction is mine and mine alone. I'm not wrong about anything I said, it's opinion or information I have gained through this forum, which is awesome, or through personal experience.

Either way, good luck to everyone.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 15, 2011 10:30 am 
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First of all not everyone has the side effects you listed. The most common are constipation and sweating. Many do experience a lowered sex drive, but not all do. Many also see an improvement in depression, not an increase in it. Those with no energy are usually on too high a dose. For that matter, most side effects will subside with a lower dosage. I have little to no side effects at all and I dose for pain which means I take between 16-24 mg a day - a pretty high dose in almost anyone's opinion. (I'll talk about side effects more below.)

As for why not just taper down or suffer the withdrawals on one's own? I agree that if one has an extremely short habit, such as a month or two or even less, then suboxone is probably inappropriate. But the length of one's addiction isn't the only thing to consider. The level of damage it has done to one's life and how deep their obsession is are major factors and those can develop rather quickly in some people. Plus even if they can get through the withdrawals, they've had zero time to prepare their lives and to change bad habits - in other words they could be in no position to live life "clean" so soon - again depending on their unique addiction history.

When it comes to surgery, some people do have difficulty getting good pain control, but again, not everyone does. I had a surgical procedure last year and got appropriate pain relief myself - again at those high dosages. That particular issue depends on one's doctors and their level of education about how to treat acute pain in sub patients. We as sub patients are often in a position to help to educate our doctors and that can make a difference. We are our own best advocates after all.

What I think I'm saying is that I believe you are making some generalizations due to your own personal experience. And although I respect your experience and don't doubt those experiences, I don't agree with the assumption that they apply to everyone - or even the majority of people. I believe people are so very unique - as well as their addiction histories - that generalities simply aren't appropriate. The choice of being on suboxone must be made on a case by case basis and how one person responds to it with side effects, etc, can be completely different than another person's - so the side effects you list won't necessarily happen to other people. I wouldn't even go as far as you did and say that the side effects are "severe". I understand that for you they have been severe, but that just doesn't apply to everyone and to tell people who are considering it that they ARE severe isn't right. I would say something like "although some people aren't bothered by the side effects, they have been severe for me". That way it's very clear to someone considering suboxone that something like side effects are not a given or even applicable to everyone. We must state things as our experience and not as blanket statements of fact.

Thanks for the opportunity to comment on this subject. I think many of us will have input on this balance of the good and bad of being on sub treatment and it's an interesting discussion that I think can be beneficial to a lot of people. Thanks for bringing it up.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 15, 2011 11:22 am 
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hatmaker510 wrote:
First of all not everyone has the side effects you listed. The most common are constipation and sweating. Many do experience a lowered sex drive, but not all do. Many also see an improvement in depression, not an increase in it. Those with no energy are usually on too high a dose. For that matter, most side effects will subside with a lower dosage. I have little to no side effects at all and I dose for pain which means I take between 16-24 mg a day - a pretty high dose in almost anyone's opinion. (I'll talk about side effects more below.)

As for why not just taper down or suffer the withdrawals on one's own? I agree that if one has an extremely short habit, such as a month or two or even less, then suboxone is probably inappropriate. But the length of one's addiction isn't the only thing to consider. The level of damage it has done to one's life and how deep their obsession is are major factors and those can develop rather quickly in some people. Plus even if they can get through the withdrawals, they've had zero time to prepare their lives and to change bad habits - in other words they could be in no position to live life "clean" so soon - again depending on their unique addiction history.

When it comes to surgery, some people do have difficulty getting good pain control, but again, not everyone does. I had a surgical procedure last year and got appropriate pain relief myself - again at those high dosages. That particular issue depends on one's doctors and their level of education about how to treat acute pain in sub patients. We as sub patients are often in a position to help to educate our doctors and that can make a difference. We are our own best advocates after all.

What I think I'm saying is that I believe you are making some generalizations due to your own personal experience. And although I respect your experience and don't doubt those experiences, I don't agree with the assumption that they apply to everyone - or even the majority of people. I believe people are so very unique - as well as their addiction histories - that generalities simply aren't appropriate. The choice of being on suboxone must be made on a case by case basis and how one person responds to it with side effects, etc, can be completely different than another person's - so the side effects you list won't necessarily happen to other people. I wouldn't even go as far as you did and say that the side effects are "severe". I understand that for you they have been severe, but that just doesn't apply to everyone and to tell people who are considering it that they ARE severe isn't right. I would say something like "although some people aren't bothered by the side effects, they have been severe for me". That way it's very clear to someone considering suboxone that something like side effects are not a given or even applicable to everyone. We must state things as our experience and not as blanket statements of fact.

Thanks for the opportunity to comment on this subject. I think many of us will have input on this balance of the good and bad of being on sub treatment and it's an interesting discussion that I think can be beneficial to a lot of people. Thanks for bringing it up.


Hatmaker,

I want to say first and foremost that I have always enjoyed reading your posts as you are one of the better informed of the bunch. Not to take away from the Romeos, Laddertrippers and other folks in here that are active because they are awesome as well. But, I will say that I tried to get across that those were my experiences and those were my opinions and that they do not apply to everyone. Each of our addictions and how we cope, struggle, succeed are our own. My hope was just to spread a little reality on the situation when it came to what I went through. I just hope that fellow addicts that can do it without sub, do. Those that can't? I wish them well but wanted them to know my story.

On another note, you mentioned the lower energy levels due to higher doseages and that lowering the doseage may help with increasing the energy levels. Again, does not apply to everyone as you said and especially not to me. To me, sub is sub. My energy levels have been shot since I have been on the drug. Most of the time. I am currently on .5 MG per day and really cannot tell the difference between 16MG when I started and now. The thing that kills me is the lack of sex drive. I also found out, via blood test, that my testosterone levels are 40% lower then the normal 39 year old. Another side effect. I thought lowering the doseage would help with that as well but nope. From what Romeo says when he stopped the sex drive came back. I can't wait for that day! :lol:

Anyway, thanks for your imput. I appreciate it. We will not always agree on everything but my hope is that we all can keep it respectful and help one another out.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 15, 2011 11:22 am 
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I actually think it's very important to warn people about the potential side effects because many of us have gone into long-term Sub with so little information and we have paid a price for that. There are also no comprehensive long-term studies on the side effects of Suboxone after someone has been on it a significant amount of time. I would have liked to know that when I started Suboxone. For many of us, the way that it works after two months or six months or 18 months is different than how it works after three years. Suboxone did work like an antidepressant for a good while. Then, it changed. What surprises me is that despite the lack of research on long-term side effects, it doesn't seem to me that there is enough value being placed on the concerns of those of us who have been on it for a long time and have suffered side effects that we were never told to watch for.

Many of the things my first doctors told me, things that were touted as fact that that time, are now accepted as incorrect. For example, I was told when I started Sub that people only need to taper to 2 mg and they will be able to discontinue it with little to no side effects. Obviously, now we know that it untrue. However, back then, when I got to a very low dose and couldn't go down anymore because of the severity of the symptoms, I was told it wasn't possibly from from Suboxone and it was something else giving me restless leg, anxiety, diarrhea, etc. I felt like I was crazy, to be honest, because it seemed to me that those things went right away as soon as I upped my Sub dose. I did bring online stories of people getting horribly ill when trying to stop Suboxone at 2 mg to my doctors attention, but those were 'horror stories' and I 'shouldn't believe what I read online.' Like I said, now it is accepted that tapering to 2 mg doesn't mean you can stop with no symptoms. That assertion was false. I was right and some of those horror stories turned out to be very accurate. I am the one who is left holding the bag. My first Sub doctor was only repeating what he was taught was accurate information.

I'm not really angry about the false things I was initially told, but I do wish there was more of an attitude of "we were wrong before, so we will not assume we are right this time and we will place more value on what Sub patients (specifically long-term patients) tell us." This medication needs to be prescribed with a lot more caution, not less. People like me are just trying to save other people some of the trouble we've had if we possibly can. Some people absolutely need Suboxone and it's a tragedy if they cannot get it. Some people don't need it and it's a tragedy if they do get it. Some people need it but not long-term. I think patients have to watch out for themselves and not assume what their doctors say is accurate. My current doctor is no schmuck but it scares me how little he knows about this medication. Reading other people's stories (although they are obviously not official studies) is really the best way we have at this time of understanding Suboxone, especially long-term Suboxone.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 15, 2011 3:04 pm 
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jleets,

I enjoyed reading your post and I had no problems understanding that you were conveying your experience and your opinion to us. I can understand and agree with the vast majority of what you said.

I was just talking to another member the other day about one of my concerns regarding Suboxone. Because of some of the confusion surrounding this medicine, many people who are coming off of it are having a way harder time than they were lead to believe would be the case. This scares me because it reminds me of what happened with OxyContin some years ago. OxyContin, rightfully so, got a bad rap and I am terribly afraid that the same thing may happen with Suboxone someday. Because Reckitt Benckiser did such a horrible job educating health care professionals, Suboxone was overprescribed, false information was given regarding discontinuation of this drug, whether intentional or not, it was still false information.

I worry that Suboxone may one day be treated like Methadone or even worse and that scares me because then the people who really need it won't be able to get it and that bothers me greatly because I'm one of those people who wouldn't have had a snowball's chance in hell if it weren't for Suboxone.

I am in no way comparing the drug OxyContin to Suboxone. I was using what happened to OxyContin to draw a parallel to what I believe may happen to Suboxone in the future. OxyContin used to be very easy to get one's hands on, that is no longer the case and that's what I don't want to see happen with Suboxone because there are absolutely people who would benefit from a proper Suboxone program.

Thanks for starting such an interesting and open discussion.

Ladder, you brought up some very valid points as well.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 15, 2011 3:31 pm 
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I have to say I am shocked to see this poster here. I am willing to share the symptoms I had while on sub and with the several times I tried to wean down and off..

I had terrible constipation from the start, the sweating was very embarrassing. I began having panic attacks that I NEVER suffered from before. I began having debilitating depression. I got NO pain relief from sub from the start. Lost the ability to have sex at all and this started at about month two. The wd's, yes they are less intense if one weans down to tiny bits.. hard to do with what is offered in the USA. The longest I was able to stay clean after sub was three mo's (I think) before I caved to the wd's and lack of sleep. I have to say that I did have bouts of constiapation with doing dope also... just not at a constant like when on sub.

The positive for me... gave me a break of hitting the streets for dope, gave me time away from the needle and the addiction I had for the needle alone. Never showed dirty on a drug screen. Kept me from having the up/downs, in and out of wd till the weaning started anyways. I felt at the time I was more level headed. I didnt think I ws getting high so that did give me some peace of mind. I did find out later that these last two statmet were not true but it did give me the higher self esteem I needed to continue to work toward my soberity. I just wish I knew more about it before I began down this road. ALL my own doing for sure.

I do think that being on sub is better then death. that is a given. But I see kids being put on it for little perc habits, post surgical folks for getting addicted to the pain meds given post op. If the USA respected sub more then I am sure things would be different. Its just that too many Md's see it as a cash cow. My sub quack never even ask me what other medication I was on, didn't care as long as I had the 500 bucks for the first appointment and the 175 for every mo after. If the Medication was monitored closer and the Md's were monitored I don't think it would be the epidemic we see now. For sure that site from Nabbit and the Reckett folks don't care how its prescribed.. just as long as it is.

What I see even more of a crime is that those who are on sub and showing the symptoms that I shared... instead of looking at sub for the possible cause the MD's are perscribing Benzo's, antidepressants and just adding more drugs. This drug to combat that symptom then add another to cover the new symptom. It goes on and on. Sad.

I think soon sub will be the most abused drug in the USA. I know in my town they go for about 10 bucks on the street. sometimes you can get it for five if the person is on disability and getting them for free. But you can ride by a corner and hear .. Red tops/blue tops/ boxers. Here boxers are suboxone.

All and all... imho, the main problem about sub is how it is perscribed. Who is doing the perscribing and then the ones who constantly tell folks that the symptoms they are having has nothing to do with sub... look else where for the culprit. Or even worse not allowing the ones that sub dont work for to post anything at all about it. this paints a false picture of what is really going on.

I think Dr Scanland has the right idea. Use sub as a detox tool. Only stay on it for 21 days or less to bypass these symptoms. But.. knowlege is power. I can only blame myself for the situation I put myself into. I should of done the research that was needed before I made this choice. I didnt. I just heard it would make you feel great and no wd. I went for it. I think if I put as much effort in the research on sub as I did on the research on ibogaine.. I would be more open to suboxone for treatment. SHORT term treatment.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 15, 2011 4:45 pm 
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I agree with you guys. It's not the Suboxone that is the problem. It's absolutely the way it is prescribed. Whether it is a wonderful thing or a horrible thing all depends on who it is prescribed to. It seems like there's a lot of focus on how tragic it can be if someone who needs it doesn't get it (relapse, overdose, death, etc.). There's far less attention paid to how tragic it can be for someone who has been prescribed Suboxone when they didn't truly need it. It's quite obviously unbalanced.

I know that when I got on it in 2005, there was nearly no info online, and all I had to go on was what my doctor told me. I still take responsibility because not doing so only makes me angry, which is stupid and useless. The bottom line is that we have to be very careful. This has been a huge learning experience for me. Here I am dealing with the results of making a choice that was largely based on erroneous information. The doctor who dispensed the erroneous information has zero obligation to me to help me figure out how to get out of this situation. He does not have to answer for it, but I certainly do. I can sincerely say that the darkest time of my life, when I actually thought about ending it all, was when I was trying to go down from 3 mg to 2 to 1, and I got incredibly sick but kept being told it was not the Suboxone. Where does a person go with that? So, I was given antidepressants and Seroquel and a mood stabilizer and Visteral. Thank God I was going to meetings and by chance connected with other people who were also trying to get off Suboxone and were hitting the same wall. Thank God I had hoarded a bunch so that I was able to up my dose. Thank God I had the intelligence to see that as soon as I upped my dose all my symptoms magically disappeared. It was the scariest time for me. I thought about shooting myself. I thought about a bridge near my house I could drive off of and I came close. I hate even thinking about that time. Talk about feeling completely abandoned. I don't trust the medical community anymore to give me fair warning and accurate information when it comes to this med. I don't trust the medical community to listen either anymore now than they did then. As the saying goes, screw me once, shame on you but screw me twice.....

I don't agree with everything Dr. Scanlan says. I don't agree with everything anyone says, for that matter. However, he is someone who went through opiate addiction and then had to make a choice as far as what avenue he wanted to go down. He researched it and decided that the most responsible thing was short-term Sub detox and not maintenance. I have a ton of respect for the fact that, even though it would be more lucrative for him to be prescribing Sub as a maintenance drug, he chooses not to. He chooses not to because he did not and would not choose it for himself. I don't know how anyone in their right mind can not see how much integrity there is in that, regardless of whether or not they agree with him.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 15, 2011 5:17 pm 
I find this thread to be interesting and of value. I don't believe the majority of what has been said is harmful to anyone and I hope that none of it will 'scare' anyone out of seeking treatment with buprenorphine. I think we all (pretty much) agree that Sub has its place in the treatment of addiction. It is an extremely important drug that we have been offered to help us get out of active addiction. But it IS a drug....a powerful drug. All the more powerful, effective drugs that I know of DO come with some risk of side effects. And often times, after a drug has been in use for a longer period of time, we learn more and more about it. There's really no way to know what happens after long term use of a drug until it has been out there in use for a while.
I agree that people need to be better informed about bupe before being prescribed it. But I still believe, as I have said before, that even with that information in hand, many addicts will stop opt to start bupe. Most, not all, were at the end of our rope when we started this drug. I totally agree that there are doctors out there prescribing it who shouldn't be. They're prescribing it to people for whom it is not appropriate and that is very wrong! I don't know what the answer to that problem is, because there have always been and will always a few physicians out there who just plain suck at what they do! All I can suggest is that when we encounter physicians like that, we need to report them and try to be proactive in getting them reprimanded. Other than that, the only other thing I can think of would be for there to be tighter regulations on what is required for the doctors to be given prescriptive authority for it. The problem with that is that it will knock out a large number of physcians and our access to this treatment will be even more difficult. That will lead to less addicts getting the treatment that they need. I don't want to see that happen. Talk about driving up the cost of getting treatment! We already complain about what we have to spend for this! I don't want it to be worse than it already is!
Regarding the side effects. Again, most drugs do come with side effects. All opiates tend to be constipating. All opiates can mess with the sex drive. And the symptoms of withdrawal from any and all opiates tend to cause similar sets of symptoms.....none of which are pleasant. So to limit our complaints about side effects and w/d symptoms to just Suboxone is not right. Getting off any and all opiates is difficult. Staying off all of them is difficult! That's no different than getting off Sub. I think we just need to be careful about putting all these awful things onto Sub. Most of us were already badly addicted to opiates. Anyone who has been through withdrawal and tried to stay 'clean' without Suboxone knows that it is almost impossible to do! I've done it and I know from my own first-hand experience. And I think this is where some of the trouble comes in. It reminds me of something that Dr. Junig has said several times when people complain about how hard it is to get off Sub. He says something to the effect of, "Well, if it would have been so much easier to have done this without Sub, why didn't you just do it?" Well, I tried and I couldn't make it more than a few months. I realize some people jump in without even trying abstinence and I don't agree with that for most people. But I'm betting that for those of us who tried it, we knew we had to try something different to have a chance at getting our lives back.
As far as things changing over time with bupe. I have to say that I, personally, agree with you guys. I most definitely felt different as the months went by on Sub. The first few weeks and months, I would sing bupe's praises to the moon and back! After that, I've questioned it more. I've even had times when I've wondered if I made the right choice going on it. But I always come back to the fact that I tried without it and I couldn't make it. I do believe that Sub affects my mood a little bit. While at first I felt great....optimistic and hopeful and happy, as time has gone by, I've lost some of that. I wouldn't go so far as to say I'm depressed, just that I have my moments! But to me, that's pretty normal....especially having been through what I've been through. So, sure, there are some mood issues. At times, I do feel a little 'blunted' on Sub. I have to say though, that with lower dosing, I most definitely see improvement of side effects.....no doubt at all, for me.
The other thing I can say, based on my own experience is that tapering all the way down to ~1mg/day has not been difficult at all compared to the withdrawal from full-agonists. It was not physical w/d that led me to my 'lapse' when trying to get off Sub. It was just cravings and an opportunity to use that pushed me into using again. When it is my time to taper below 1mg/day, I'll post about my experiences. It may be awful. I may have just as bad a w/d as I did from full agonists. I just don't think I will though. But I will be honest when and if it happens.
I guess what I'm saying with all this is that we all have somewhat different experiences with this drug. We should all be able to talk about this stuff without being made to feel that we're wrong or silly or whatever. Things are to the individual what they say they are, bottom line. I just think, as others have said, that we need to be careful not to make broad generalizations. Just because something was/is a certain way for you, doesn't mean it is or will be for another. Hatmaker is a prime example.....She's been on Sub a good while now and reports really no adverse effects. Surely no one thinks she's coming on here and lying! I certainly don't! I take her word for it.....She feels great on Sub and I guarantee you, she's not the ONLY one out there who does! I say, good for her! That is where she's at and that is where she comes from when she talks about the drug.
Jleets has not been so lucky. He's had a hell of a time on Sub. Do I think he's full of it? Of course not! His experience is his experience. He's had a lot of side effects and doesn't feel great on Sub. I'm sorry for him. And for anyone else who has had a hard time with it. I can understand why you'd want to warn others. And I think you've been respectful here with your word choices. I love that we can discuss all of it and the information can be sort of balanced out so folks can draw their own conclusions.
As for me, again, I haven't had many side effects at all and those I have had diminished or disappeared with dose reductions. I think the reality or truth for most of us lies somewhere in the middle.....between Hatmaker's and others' great experiences with bupe, and Jleets and others' terrible experiences with bupe....somewhere in there is where the rest of us will fall. Still, the most important thing to remember, in my opinion, is that there are people dying and there are people who's lives are being torn apart by opiate addiction. And for some of those people, bupe will save their lives or save them from ruining their lives. That's the most important thing. And that's why we need this drug to remain available. I have a real hard time believing that bupe will be the "most abused drug in the U.S" though. I could be wrong, but I don't think so. It just doesn't have the desirable, euphoric effect that the other drugs have.


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 16, 2011 5:41 pm 
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WoW! Some very solid points from everyone that posted. A few that stick out the most are:

Birdie: "I see kids being put on it for little perc habits, post surgical folks for getting addicted to the pain meds given post op."

How right you are. That was one of my points I was trying to make. Some people are on sub and now living with the negative side effects when they should of never been prescribed it in the first place. It's all about the $$$ For SOME doctors out there. While I was on 8-16MG per day my doctor gave me 2MG Xanax to take for anxiety. AND I TOLD HIM I DRANK 2-3 DRINKS A DAY ON AVERAGE! WTH? Can anyone say "Respitory Failure?" I mean c'mon man. I find myself educating my doctor on Sub all the time. Then I am hit with the same thing most are from the doc which is "Don't believe everything you read." Really? But what if 10 people are all saying the same thing? They are wrong? I don't think so.

Laddertripper: "I actually think it's very important to warn people about the potential side effects because many of us have gone into long-term Sub with so little information and we have paid a price for that. There are also no comprehensive long-term studies on the side effects of Suboxone after someone has been on it a significant amount of time. "

That's why I wanted to start this thread. Not to be negative, but to be real about the drug. It's not all happy trails and good times. It has quite a bit of negative side effects associated with it that can and do happen. The manufacturer of the drug is to blame in my opinion. They should of done a lot more stuides than they did but again, it's about the money.

Rome: "Because Reckitt Benckiser did such a horrible job educating health care professionals, Suboxone was overprescribed, false information was given regarding discontinuation of this drug, whether intentional or not, it was still false information."

Exactly. Can you imagine when they found out that the drug could stop WD Symptoms right in it's tracks? CHA-CHING! They saw dollar signs but to save a little face they told doctors, "Hey, complete this 1 day course on the drug and you can charge insane amounts of money to these addicts, AND THEY WILL PAY IT!" Some doctors I ran across were trash. Straight up trash. Others were nice but not informed. Others were informed and legit but complete dicks because they looked down on me. It was like everyone was starring at me in the doctors office when I would come in and they were thinking "Yuck, a junkie." Irresponsible manufacturer + Money Hungry Doctors made many of us on this drug become long term users of it because we did not know any better. But again, some of us have to long term. I get that and I am not knocking anyone that is. As I have said, our addiction is ours and ours alone. My opinion.


Setmefree: "Jleets has not been so lucky. He's had a hell of a time on Sub. Do I think he's full of it? Of course not! His experience is his experience. He's had a lot of side effects and doesn't feel great on Sub. I'm sorry for him."

I really like your post SMF but I do want to point out something in case I am making it seem like I am against sub or have had a horrible time with it, all the time. I am greatful for the clarity it has given me. Ith as allowed me to stop paying massive amounts of money for my pills on the street because for once I felt "normal" in the beginning. It allowed me to stop destroying my body with my 25 pill a day habit. It allowed me to save my marriage. It allowed me to get my life back. But, it also came with those side effects that I listed and others listed so I just want to say, as SMF pointed out, all strong drugs have side effects. As I said in the beginning of the post, each of us has to decide if it's worth it because they are there. I think a combination of a good caring doctor, a solid support system and this board's members is a heck of a start to being on sub and being successful while on it. Meaning, only being on it as long as you need to and understanding everything that may be coming your way and how to deal with it. Many of us were guinea pigs and our trials and tribulations hopefully can now help the other folks that are starting, stopping or maintaining on this drug.


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 17, 2011 12:25 am 
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Great posts. For me, starting sub was not because of withdrawals. It was because I knew I couldn't stop. I'd been through withdrawal many times, come out the other end, and felt "normal". However, "normal" sucked!! I believe some people's brains are just wired to want to get fked up. Since starting sub, my desire to drink, smoke pot, do coke, etc. are gone. So much the better. A small dose of sub a day keeps the crazies away. For me.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 18, 2011 12:11 am 
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There's a lot of speculation as to dialogue & motive that simply can't be confirmed in this thread.

The cynical part of me agrees with a lot of what you're saying jleets. Some docs are shocking, period. But that shouldn't be a smear on the medical world as a whole. I've had fantastic docs & some ones incredibly incompetant. Fact is, most of the medical world don't know much about addiction, and doctors that specialise in it are few & far between. Some of the old-school mentality of "why help people who can't help themselves" is probably behind this. I don't know. But fact is, we can utilise our discretion as consumers and simply find a better doctor at any time.

I'm not sure about America, but in my country addiction medicine is far from a lucrative field. And it takes its toll on the doctor emotionally, for sure. Seeing 30 patients a day come in to get a monthly script of methadone / suboxone, only to see the ones you've built up a relationship with over the years often relapse and die would take its toll.

Of course it's about the money for RB. They're a listed company on the London Stock Exchange and like publicly listed company their sole purpose is to gain the best returns for their investors. There's nothing stopping any of us investing in RB. At least we'd know that we'd be getting some of our money back!

Sure I disagree with the way pharma PR works these days, but it's great to have another option on the table. If suboxone wasn't around, most people on this site would be on methadone, and those of us who would be on a higher dose (which always happens to me) would be too strung out and fatigued to even kick up a stink like we can on suboxone.

My cynical streak really resonates with a lot of what you're saying, but today I am not feeling depressed, so I'm not getting that worked up over it all like I sometimes can.

PS>> Loss of testosterone / libido is also a common effect of depression. Just bear in mind it's difficult to nail the causality with a lot of these "side effects". Another way of looking at it - person suffers from mild depression, stumbles on opiates & finds relief, life turns to shit, ends up on suboxone, reduces suboxone to a low dose, depression returns and gets worse.

Some docs believe that those who are already emotionally healthy & balanced don't find any pleasure in taking opiates simply cos they have no emotional pain that needs relief...


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Fond Du Lac Psychiatry
Dr. Jeffrey Junig, M.D., Ph.D.

  • Board Certified Psychiatrist
  • Asst Clinical Professor, Medical College of Wisconsin

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