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PostPosted: Thu Mar 11, 2010 9:34 pm 
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I am male 39 yrs old have been on methadone for 2 years dose 55mg. Switched over Sunday and having issues. Can't stay warm. Live in country on river any change in temp. I feel chills? Also still having issues with pain. Doctor started me out on Suboxone 1 1/2 pill a.m. / p.m. 8's. And anxiety is bad. Went back to doctor yesterday not very helpful increased my dosage to 4 pills a day morning and evening or 12hr. period. HELP!!!!


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 11, 2010 11:06 pm 
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Hello....

I would love to give you my personal advice and any insight that I may have that could help you. I am not a doctor however. Just a recovering addict happily on suboxone for over 8 months.

I used methadone occasionaly while in active addiction, but it was not consistantly and not right before I inducted onto Suboxone. I am going by what I have read online and heard from others on this forum. The longer between the last methadone dose and first suboxone/bupe dose the better. I wish you could provide a bit more details on your last methadone dose, when you inducted, etc. Also, with the amount your taking a day I am confused. Do you mean you were moved up to 4 - 8mg pills per day (32 mg of Suboxone??) or are you saying that every 12 hours you are to take upto 4 - 8mg Suboxone (64mg per 24 hours). I might just have been 'over-reading' your post, but I don't know what you mean. If you could elaborate a bit more that would be great and possibly I could help you then.

For a rule of thumb, if you are on a moderate - 'high' dose of methadone (40mg and up approx.....) if you were able to wait 96 hours or more from last dose of methadone to first bupe dose, then you are getting into the safer range of time (range of time is what I said because there is no magic time limit or magic number of days for any med to switch to bupe). Methadone is not like a short acting opiate/opioid, so waiting say 24-36 hours PROBABLY wouldn't cut it!

I know for ME, I was always 'internally cold' (sp?) when I was going into and during w/d. It would get worse as the w/d progressed, but I think you get the idead. What I am GUESSING is that possibly lingering methadone in your system could be the issue. However, without knowing more, it is really hard to tell.


I hope you can provide us with a bit more info and I /we could provide further advice/insight. Thanks a bunch for coming here and someone will be able to help if I cannot!! Good luck and take care!!!

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"The past is finished. There is nothing to be gained by going over it. Whatever it gave us in the experiences it brought us was something we had to know."----Rebecca Beard

"Have no fear of perfection - you'll never reach it." ---Salvador Dali


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 11, 2010 11:51 pm 
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Thank you for your reply. Sorry about lack of information. I was on methadone usually one dose a day of 55mg. About a week before I switched from Methadone to Suboxone I consumed 100mg of methadone two days then back to 55mg. (Not Smart) Last Wednesday at 8:00 a.m. I took my last methadone dose of 55mg. Met with suboxone doctor same day and got instructions. He would not give a good time to start the suboxone but the worse I feel the better. So about Friday 3:00 p.m. I said uncle. That was a mistake!!! Went into bad withdrawls!!! Called doctor and he called in some scripts for anxiety, cold hot crap, and restless leg. So Sunday I tried suboxone again. Started out with 1/2 of a 8mg pill. Did ok took 3 total pills for that day. 1 1/2 a.m. / p.m. Went back to doctor Wednesday told doctor what was going on. Pain in joints, cold chills, and out of this world anxiety. While on methadone never had any trouble when I took as prescribed. Doctor put me on Paxtil for anxiety and depression. Also wrote another script for Vistaril for anxiety. He called vistaril and clonodine for help with withdrawls before switch over. He raised my suboxone dose to 4 pills daily 8 mg. He said 2 in morning and 2 in evening. Started that this morning around 6:30 a.m. still felt bad. So this afternoon I took 4 pills 8mg each and the clonodine and actually felt normal no buzz. Joint pain level good, anxiety in check and no chills. So what's up with that. Can't afford that many subs and is that to many? Dangerous? Overdose? Just cant do much of anything with that pain and anxiety. O.K. for now but what will morning bring. I honestly don't want to get high just feel half way normal. Thank You for your reply . If you need more information just let me know. This has been a living hell.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 12, 2010 12:28 am 
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Thanks for the additional info! I am sure it has been hell and sorry you had to go through it! Indeed, it sounds like you ended up taking the bupe too soon after your last dose of methadone. Sucked, I bet!!! And now, in my personal opinion (can't stress that enough! that this is my opinion, and I am not a doctor/expert) I think it is the methadone SLOWLY leaving your body and the bupe fully taking over (simply put). I think as the days go on and as we get into next week even (hopefully not that long, for your sake) you will feel better each and every day. For me, Suboxone takes care of all the physical symptoms. I have mental symptoms from time to time, but very very slight and mild if any. It works for the majority of the people who take it correctly. I think it can work for you too in some time.

As far as 4 a day (32mg) being too much, well, according to the latest research (again, not going to cite anything inparticular, but if you would like some websites with some info, I could dig them up from bookmarks) 2 a day, 16mg is usually sufficient in MOST cases. A select few do take 24 mgs for maintenance, and even fewer are on 32mgs per day. I have heard from some who take their dose split during the day for pain relieving properties, and I have done as well sometimes for my chronic pain. But, most experts say that it is best to take once per day to stop the addictive behavior from dosing a drug/pill whenever we feel bad and/or every 4-6 hours. Take once per day, forget it, and live life...
Bupe has a ceiling, so after a certain point, there are no more 'agonist' properies of bupe (suboxone), meaning after a certain dose, you don't get more 'opiate' effect. Get me? Suboxone (I refer to suboxone/subutex as bupe from time to time) is a relatively safe drug where as with full agonists (oxy, methadone, dope, vicodin, etc etc etc) opiate effect keeps rising with each dose increase with NO ceiling effect.

Again, my opinion, I think that if you take what the doctor tells you to for bupe and stay away from any and all other opiates....then within a couple days or so you should start to feel MUCH better. We who are on a maintenance dose of bupe don't feel much of anything except for NORMAL, which is great! Please give it a little time to see if you level out and maybe you too can benefit greatly from it!

From someone in recovery to another, I hope I was of at least some help. I also hope you continue to update us and keep us posted. I am sure others will drop in and reply to give you some more info and advice. Good luck with everything and please just ask, and we will help!!!! Take care!

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"The past is finished. There is nothing to be gained by going over it. Whatever it gave us in the experiences it brought us was something we had to know."----Rebecca Beard

"Have no fear of perfection - you'll never reach it." ---Salvador Dali


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 Post subject: THANK YOU BIG RED!!!!
PostPosted: Fri Mar 12, 2010 12:53 am 
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Thank you so much for writing back to me. That reply was full of helpful and useful information. Yeah I really was starting to worry that something wasn't wright. I just dont't have that get up and go. While on methadone that wasn't a problem. But I was going to a methadone clinic and I was done with their games and the pain in the butt of going once a week. I would go in on Wednesday and take one dose and pick up six. Well hell on Mondays I would start to worry about going to the clinic. Wife was also fed up with methadone. I have been tempted to switch back to methadone but I damn sure don't want to go back to the clinic. I had to drive to another state just to find a clinic. Not to mention all the gas money and wear and tear on vehicles. You brought up a good point about taking Suboxone once a day. Took those three this morning didn't really help but when I got impatient and took four this afternoon around 5:00 p.m. I still feel good now almost midnight. I don't know still have several problems to work through but when you are dope sick it's tough. Just didn't feel like doing anything since Sunday. Once again thank you for the helpful information I will keep you posted and let you know the minute I start to feel better.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 12, 2010 1:21 am 
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No problem!

Thats what I/we here for!!


I don't blame you for not wanting to go once a week. For MY suboxone treatment, I go to my current doctor once per month (really every 28 days, but pretty much the same). I never wanted to wait in line or simply go every day, in fact I couldn't go everyday for sub or methadone because of my business. My first sub doctor was only 28 or so miles away. He was a dick to say the least. I think my 2nd and current doctor is great. But, I live in northeast PA, my current doctor is in southern NJ. I drive over 125miles each way in a gas guzzler. With meds (12mg per day) and doctors visit and all travel expenses it is about $500 per month. A FRACTION of what I spent when I was using. I have no problem driving that once per month, even with my bad back (I can't drive for too long without being in a lot of pain).

I am glad that I was able to help a bit, and just wanted to say that little bit about my doctor and the drive to him. It is all worth it, dope sick is NOT fun! Been there done that TOO MANY TIMES, and I refuse to do it again! And, you will get better, don't worry bout it, just take it day by day and give it a little bit before you decide to go back to methadone. Whatever you gotta do to stay in recovery and out of active addiction is what needs to be done....Good luck again man, have a good night!

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"The past is finished. There is nothing to be gained by going over it. Whatever it gave us in the experiences it brought us was something we had to know."----Rebecca Beard

"Have no fear of perfection - you'll never reach it." ---Salvador Dali


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 Post subject: Hanging in There
PostPosted: Fri Mar 12, 2010 1:52 am 
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Yeah a little history I live in Kentucky about 40 miles from Louisville. I used to drive to the dreaded clinic in Southern Indiana about 50 miles. Now I'm going to a doctor in Elizabeth Ky. It's about 100 miles. Wont be bad get down to once a month. I tried to find a suboxone Dr. in Louisville but nobody would talk to me unless my methadone dose was lower or around 30mg. Hell they wanted proof if I was going to clinic for dose verification. I think it will all work out. I'm off methadone that's a plus. Not saying methadone is bad but I was ready for a change. Couldn't work out of town and conflicts with vacations. Once a month is damn sure better than once a week.


I surely appreciate all this information. I was hoping I didn't give suboxone enough time. From what you have said it does sound like better days are wright around the corner. Trying to put back pieces of a life that my drug addiction has destroyed. Just wish I didn't stay two years on methadone and the whole clinic drama. It sounds like suboxone have helped alot of people, maybe if I'm lucky I will be one too. Being dope sick will make you do some crazy things.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 12, 2010 2:58 am 
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I think that Big Red gave you some very good and on target advice and information. Way to go BigR! I just wanted to reiterate that you are likely suffering from the cross over from Methadone to Suboxone. It really is one of the hardest drugs to induce onto Suboxone from. In fact, the highest target dose that I have seen seems to be 30 mg/day of Methadone. Many times they want to get you down to that or will switch you onto a short acting opiate for a week or two prior to your Suboxone induction. From everything you have described it sounds like you just simply did not have enough time between your last dose of Methadone and first dose of Suboxone. You very likely suffered the dreaded precipitated withdrawal when you first started.

The good thing is, you are likely over the hump and will start to feel better with each passing day. If I had to guess I'd say you will be feeling much better and "back to normal" by next week. I really would discourage you from making any changes until at least another week passes. While anything is possible, and you may not find Suboxone to work as well for you as Methadone did, I highly doubt that will be the case. Most people seem to report that their treatment with Suboxone is superior to the treatment they had with Methadone. I think you'll find the same thing. You'll just have to get settled in. I also think that once that happens you will be able to reduce your dose to somewhere around 8-16 mg/day. Your doctor will very likely work with you on this. At 32 mg/day you are certainly at the very top of the scale and likely may need a large amount for a few weeks yet - again due to the previous Methadone treatment. Don't be surprised if your doc wants to start dropping you down after that. And if he does not, and you would like to reduce your dose, I would strongly suggest you speak with your doctor about that in a month or so. Most people find that they do very, very well in a range from about 4 mg to 16 mg - even if they do have a rockey period when they first start Suboxone.

My main message to you is just try to hang in there and keep counting the number of days behind you. I think you'll quickly see that each new day is better than the last.


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 Post subject: Guy's I'm So Sorry!!!!
PostPosted: Fri Mar 12, 2010 11:42 am 
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I had some time this morning to reply. Spent about two hours on the keyboard telling story about this addiction. I really opened up. I'm a quite guy and this was a new experience for me sharing my life. Not arrogant just quite. So some how after all that time I lost all of it. I tried to post and it kicked me back to the log in page. God I blew my top. It takes me a little longer on the keyboard can't type. (Hunt & Peck) So I kept trying to go back to my page I was on got there tried to post again never would post. Big Red and Donh I'm sorry I was looking forward to sharing my experiences and how I'm doing. Got to go to town to help mom out this morning I guess that 2 hours was a waste. What do I need to do to avoid this in the future? Man that sucks. I really opened up and that's not like me. Thank You again Big Red and Donh for your help and concern. Cant put into words on how much you have helped!!!! Will be back on board later tonight. May try again to tell my story. THANK YOU!!!!!!!!!!!


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 Post subject: Here We Go Again????
PostPosted: Fri Mar 12, 2010 8:50 pm 
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Hope I don't loose everything again but here goes. What made me get on methadone was money drying up and out of control. Within a two month period I lost my job of 18 yrs and my Dad. We lost him December 2007 and by April 2008 I went to the methadone clinic. During this time period I was out of control. I was taking lortabs, perks, methadone, and any other drug that would keep me high or not dope sick. Went through my 401K in no time at all on buying off the street. Over six figure amount. Well that day finally came I was out of money. No more cash advances or selling stuff. Someone told me about a methadone clinic.



So from there I started going to the clinic everyday. Started out on 30 mg went up to 55mg. Before I knew I was up to a weeks take home. So I thought that's not so bad go once a week. Total time there was a month shy of two years. In fact my yearly check up was coming up in April. It has really been hard on my family. My wife and daughter have really suffered through this addiction. One morning my wife came to me and said ''it's me or the methadone.'' So we seperated about three weeks ago. She just doesn't understand why I just cant quit. She was used to the security and now that is long gone. We worked our butts of to buy land and build a house. We live far out in a rural area. Have acreage and a house. I built most of it and subbed the rest out. Currently we are in foreclosere proceedings. I'm just affraid I am going to loose my family next if I don't get this worked out. I have felt so bad from switching over from methadone to suboxone. In the previous posts I have gone over my detox and dosage. Doctor now has me up to 32 mg/day and I think that's way to much? Big Red and Donh really gave me some good information and advice. Thank's guys!!!!! Please don't call me lazy I will work when dope sick but from detoxing from methadone and switching over to suboxone has been really hard. Started thinking about my methadone dose I was really closer to 70mg because I would dip into my take homes and on the last day of the week. Several weeks that last day I went without nothing. Wednesdays used to be my favorite day six more bottles of methadone. Started detoxing last Wednesday and I know the Friday before that I doubled dosed 110mg. So there still may be methadone in my system? Actually started feeling a little better yesterday. Due to Big Red and Donh I have remained positive. I'm really trying hard this time just not sure if my wife will stand by my side. The cost of the suboxone is another issue with no health insurance. I live in Kentucky and I found the cheapest price to be $5.89 a pill? With the doctors fees and the other related costs not sure if I can stay on subboxone. Wednesday a week ago was my last dose of methadone. Looking back I guess I have made some improvement. I just want to feel normal again and take care of my family as I did before. Homes, trucks, bass boats, etc... can be replaced family cant.




Well there it is my addiction. I'm a quite person and this is a first for me to open up and discuss my problems. I just wanted to thank everyone for letting me vent. I really do like this web site. Big Red and Donh gave me a hell of a lot more information than my doctor. I really found myself in a bad spot earlier this week when the suboxone wasn't working. However because of you nice folks I am keeping a positive attitude and taking one day at a time. One thing I want to be known is in no way due I think I'm better than someone else or try to judge someone!!!! And the circumestances I'm in now is nobody's fault but mine!!!! The scariest fear I have now is loosing my family for good. Just wish I could show my wife how it really is and you just don't quit taking opiates. Just a few things that my addiction has taught me is compassion for others, how important family is, money is not everything, and my faith. The previous revelations not listed in order of importance. I would like to think everyone in advance for taking the time to read and replying.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 12, 2010 10:11 pm 
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Ugh, sorry you had to type this twice........and go through it all again twice as if you don't think about it enough already, I am sure....


You are brave and a good person! I still haven't posted my 'whole' story, but bits and pieces here and there. Thank you for sharing with us, we are here to help you!!! I just wanted to say that the last decade I really wasn't ever too nice, helpful, or truthfully, gave a F*#K about much of anything but myself. I have messed up so much, and just in the past 8+ months I too have learned a lot about myself and I am trying to make up for the mistakes I previously made. If that means spending a little time on this forum.....done! It has helped me so much the past few months, I am willing to pour that help right back in!!!!!

As far as your wife, if she hasn't ever had an opiate addiction or even any other addiction or problem with alcohol (or even cigs), then it is going to be hard for her to understand 'why you just can't stop'. I am sure she is a great person and put up with a lot (loved ones of us addicts normally do!) and I am not saying that she just doesn't know anything, but addiction is in depth. It is not, 'oh I like the way I feel on this pill, but I don't want to stop taking them'. It is MUCH MORE than that. I know it, you know it....but non addicts are a bit more reluctant to accept that.

I know all too well that it doesn't take long to loose damn near close to everything. I had the world by the 'nutz' a few years back, even while I was on pain meds, but before I lost complete control. The economy was awesome and I could not get a day off because I was sooo busy. I am still busy now and many businesses have gone under with the bad economy (not to mention a raging opiate active addiction as I had) but the economy is nothing like it was a few years ago. I would spend a lot of the money that came in on my habit and doctors and stuff, but was able to save a bunch too. I am 'young-ish' and really came from an average family growing up, not rich by any means! So when I 'all-the-sudden' became a business owner at the ripe old age of 22 (I worked for the business, but did not own it untill 22) and was making good money (good to me), I thought I was on top of the world. My gal at the time was really cool, we had a lot in common and things were as decent as they were going to get at the time. WELL, things got out of control quickly! And with in a year or year and a half time I blew well into the 6 figures. Not to mention the entire decade from start to finish. Now I have problems with all my credit cards, most of my bills aren't at -0-, and I blew the relationship with that girl and how many others.... That is just the tip of the ice berg of the consequenses of my active addiction.
I am working my way back up from a deep hole, and it can be done! I was not married so I don't know how it would have turned out if I was.

I also lost my father (great guy, very sudden and unexpected) a few years back and that was extremely difficult. A huge burden was placed onto my shoulders. Another time and place for that story tho......


I am trying to say that even though we all are so different......we also are so much the same, in certain ways. Addiction knows no bounderies. It does not care how old, what race, sex, or social/economic status we are. But, we all can stop it in its tracks and work to fix what we messed up and gain back what we lost. It may take a loooooong time, but with a lot of dedication and support it cann happen! I really hope your wife and family can try to give you a second chance!!! You deserve it!

Well, the doctor has you on 32mg, if you still don't feel right wait it out a couple days if possible. Maybe try just taking 16mg after a couple of days to see if that helps or hurts. You can always take the other 16mg later. Now hearing more of your situation, I am thinking more and more that the methadone is still lingering in your system and once it is totally off of your receptors, the bupe (suboxone) will take care of all the w/d symptoms and other problems you are having, opiate related. Methadone is so tricky to switch from , even at 30mg, and with your doses it is making it even 'tricky-er'. Time will ease the pain from the methadone-bupe transition.

I look foward to helping anymore and hearing your progress as you get pass this hurdle! Please take care....

_________________
"The past is finished. There is nothing to be gained by going over it. Whatever it gave us in the experiences it brought us was something we had to know."----Rebecca Beard

"Have no fear of perfection - you'll never reach it." ---Salvador Dali


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 13, 2010 1:31 am 
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A lot of that I can relate to. Sorry Big Red to hear about your dad. Like me it's hard to talk about. Shit I lost a best friend, a buddy, and a father all at one time in one person. There's not one day that goes by I don't think about him. He knew of my addiction as he laid dying. Had a real good day with him a day before he passed. I'm affraid he passed worried about me and my problems. That guilt has eaten me up inside and that's all I'll say about that.


Yeah can relate to not giving a shit. Also I am guilty of chasing that all mighty dollar. Used to work about 70 hrs a week. Hell I was salary and still worked the hours. I think I worked to stay away from my family. Hell now I'm just the opposite material crap and money don't motivate me much anymore. Used to be real competaetive (spelling sucks) and ruthless. Seeing others struggling with addictions somehow has showed me compassion. Used to be critical of people I also have changed that to. It's not always about me.


I tell you what bro you have no idea how much you have helped me. I'm telling you your information blew my doctor away. That s.o.b. really did something this week to really piss me off. No health insureance no problem I'll pay cash. Well I didn't have it all I'll write them a check. The girl behind the desk said ''No checks." Now mind you I'm about 100 miles away from home no debit card on me or anything else. That prick was going to let me leave without seeing him just to prove a point. Hell I thought I was back at the methadone clinic. That's ok what goes around comes around. Enjoyed reading your post can relate!!!


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 Post subject: Thank You For The Help
PostPosted: Thu Mar 18, 2010 6:17 pm 
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Well it's been three weeks since I had any methadone. Suboxone seems to be helping. Still don't feel like a 100% but not sick. I guess I had some methadone lingering in my system. Saw doctor on Wednesday and did not change amount of medicine. Taking (2) 8-2's in morning and same in the evening for a total of four pills. Seems awful high dose??? This is the third week of suboxone and hanging in there!!!!!


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 18, 2010 7:12 pm 
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Good for you. You keep hanging in there and stay 'tuff'. I wouldn't worry about your dose as of yet at least until you stabilize. Good luck to ya, and make sure you keep popping back and giving us an update......take care

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"The past is finished. There is nothing to be gained by going over it. Whatever it gave us in the experiences it brought us was something we had to know."----Rebecca Beard

"Have no fear of perfection - you'll never reach it." ---Salvador Dali


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