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PostPosted: Wed Sep 08, 2010 8:23 pm 
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Since I'm new here I wanted to know if there was anyone out there like me. It's well known on my other BBS that I use warm water and childs dosage syringe to squirt the Suboxone into my rectum.

Yeah...I know. There's an Ewww factor to it, but let me explain.

When I was young - like 7 or 8 - I had that membrane that holds your tongue to the bottom of your mouth removed. It was a botch job - they were only supposed to take a little off since it was affecting my speech, but they botched it up royally. Would have been a hefty lawsuit today, but this was the 70's, so it was just accepted.

Anyway, that, along with a small mouth and usually dry mouth (I'm on Cymbalta and Xanax as well for GAD/Panic) make taking subs very difficult - especially the 8's. I had to break them in 1/4's before the light bulb went off.

So, I look at it like this: Suboxone is absorbed through mucus membranes pretty well, Naltrexone is not, so I was swallowing a lot of spit containing not only Suboxone, but Naltrexone as well, which kind of defeated the purpose. It also took at least 20 minutes for the pills to fully dissolve, making it difficult or impossible to talk, smoke, drink, or any other number of things.

So, I figured, what the heck, Your rectum is mucus membrane, I've taken medicine rectally before - and not just for hemorrhoids. Phenergan, dilaudid - a bunch of meds. really, so why wouldn't Suboxone work this way.

Well, it does, and better than ever. A teaspoon of warm water, a childs dosage syringe, my 2mg tablet, shake well for 30 seconds or so, bend over and fire away. Bang - I'm done. Not only am I done, but the whole experience is more efficient, from the amount of time it takes to dose, to the amount of bupe vs Naltrexone absorbed.

To be honest, I don't know why they didn't make them in suppository form to begin with.

I realize because of the "Ewww" and other factors it's not for everyone, but to me it's hands down the fastest way to take the med, and in my opinion, you get better bio-avalibility of the bupe and less of the Naltrexone.

So, does anyone else "Starfish"? Don't be shy :wink:

J

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 08, 2010 9:32 pm 
Ummm.....I'm not shy, but, uhhhh, no. Can't say I've ever even considered dosing that way. It's not the 'yuck' factor either. I was nurse for a long time and have given lots of meds by many different routes. I've given meds rectally and even vaginally....but only when the medication is designed and intended and directed to be given that way. I figure there's a reason why there are dosing directions included on prescriptions and I try to stick to them, especialy since getting into recovery. However, I understand your rationale about the mucous membranes and all that....but there is a difference between oral mucousa and rectal. Generally medications in rectal suppository form are taken up into the bloodstream much faster than by other routes (other than IV.) But even if the bupe was to be taken up faster, are you really getting better absorption? I wouldn't be too sure about that.
In any case, to me the 'bottom' line is.....not taking meds as prescribed=addict type behavior, something we should all try to avoid. Of course, that doesn't apply if this is something you're doing after discussing with your doctor and getting his/her approval of your dosage routine.
Just my two cents.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 09, 2010 2:18 am 
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Yes, I've heard the addict type behavior argument before - and this may come as a shock to you (with my tongue in cheek), but I've never considered myself addicted to opiates. Dependant, no doubt, but not addicted.

Now that you're done laughing, let me explain. I never did any drugs except smoke some pot when I was younger. Never cared for it - just made me paranoid. Drinking, that's another story. I was a binge drinker to the T. It was really the only way I could act normal socially. But with opiates, I can't say i ever really chased the high. I was severely injured at 17 , requiring burn like treatment - go to the ER every 2 days, get a shot of some heavy duty opiate (Probably dilaudid) get my dressing changed and my wounds cleaned, and sent on my way - the whole time having a take home script of Tylox (10mg Oxy/APAP). after I was "healed", I injured my back again, so it was pretty much a 20 year run of back injury, go to doctor, get hydro/APAP and muscle relaxer, and be sent on my way.

Honestly, there were only a few times that I took more than I was prescribed. So, for the most part, I think I was a pretty good little patient. Things didn't change until I watched a 60 minutes about heroin production, and how morphine and codeine were the main ingredients in opium. So, I figured I could cut out the middle man (the doc trips were the same every time - look at my chart, check me out, listen to my complaints, write the scripts) grow my own poppies and just self medicate. Well, I found a different source of opium, but it was opium just the same. That's where you can throw the red addict flag, although, again, I wasn't trying to get high, just get relief from my pain, and I was tired of the doctors bills and the scrips and to be honest, after all that time, tolerance was an issue, and the opium took care of that as well, but I maintained a minimum dose - only what I need to get relief. So I used the opium for about 10 years before we had a baby on the way. For legal reasons, my wife wanted me to quit, and I agreed, reading up on Suboxone and seeing it was made from Thebaine (The same part of opium Oxycodone is made from) made it a much more attractive alternative than cold turkey or a methadone clinic.

So, to me, I never really showed or acted out as an addict, but after 20 some years of being on opiates, my brain could not seem to function without them. I quit cold turkey for a year before giving in and using opiates again - the pain, anxiety and depression were just too much, even after a year.

So, I really don't think using it rectally is addict like behavior. If i was crushing and snorting them, or shooting them, then, yes, I would agree. To me, taking my dose rectally is simply more efficient than sitting there with a pill (or pills) under my tongue, trying not to swallow any spit for at least 20 minutes. With the rectal method I'm done and on my way in less than a minute, and I think the absorption rate is actually better rectally, so I've managed to get down to and stay on 4 mg per day for some time now. The medicine is still being absorbed via mucus membrane, I don't have to deal with all the spit build up, and like I said, less than a minute and I'm on with my day.

I see your point, and appreciate your response setmefree, but I truly believe it's simply a more efficient method of taking the med. I'd like to know what others think - or if they use or have tried the same method.

Thanks!
J

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 09, 2010 6:31 am 
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I'm sorry, but I have to agree that taking any medication in a way that it was not intended leans toward addict behavior. We like to be our own doctors, which is exactly what you're doing. I'm just curious, does your doctor know you take it this way? And if not, why haven't you told her/him? You're doing a hell of a lot of rationalizing as to why you take it this way and how you're not an addict...Maybe you need to think about your real reasons. Most addicts get to the point where they don't feel "normal" without their drug either.

Also, you said:

J_Ramone wrote:
It also took at least 20 minutes for the pills to fully dissolve, making it difficult or impossible to talk, smoke, drink, or any other number of things.


Twenty minutes is not that long! Some people here choose to hold it in their mouth for 40+ minutes!

Just another two cents from some anonymous internet addict.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 09, 2010 8:44 am 
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No, I don't tell my doc - I know I would get the same reaction that I've gotten so far - that it's addict like behavior. However, I can tell you this: I gain no pleasure or rush from sticking things in my rear end :wink:

I've always been a common sense person, so if I can do some thing in a minute rather than 20 and get the same results, I'm going to do it - it would be silly not to

I think it depends on how you want to define addiction or dependence - which admittedly can be a tough thing. You say I'm rationalizing, I say I'm simply giving you some background info and explaining why I use this method. Also, if a person has been prescribed opiates for the better part of 20 some years, are they an addict or are they Dependant? There is a difference.

Was I Dependant while being prescribed the med but suddenly became an addict when I chose to self medicate? If I choose to skip the 20 min oil place and change my own oil, does that make me a mechanic? The same process is occurring, somebody just isn't getting paid by me to do it. I see doctors as I do plumbers, electricians or mechanics: I'm the boss. A lot of Docs have a problem with this because of their ego, but others understand that I take a pro-active role in my life, be it getting my tire fixed or a scrip for my back. I've Fired more than a few doctors who were a little to high on authority for my liking. Again, I'm paying them - I'm the customer. I've been lucky that, for the most part, i found doctors who spend time with me and discuss things rather than rattling off some jargon and moving down the assembly line.

The good news is that the new Suboxone film is supposed to be out in October. I'm going to give this a try, and if it dissolves and absorbs as quickly as I hope it dose, the dosage syringe will no longer be used and I'll put the film under y tongue.

Let me ask you guys this: Lets pretend the film is not coming out, but a suppository is. Would you switch over to a suppository that took about a minute to use or would you stay with the sublingual pills that take at least 20 minutes?

I appreciate both responses and hope my responses are not seen as argumentative or cross - I'm a very laid back guy and consider myself friendly, but that doesn't always show through well with the written word - unless you pepper your post with emoticons, which I try to keep to a minimum. I just don't want people to think my posts are flames or debates - I just like to discuss things, and do my best to make sure people know I'm being civil and not emotional. I try to "speak" to people on the net as I would face to face, even if we disagree. My dad was a scientist and I kind of took on that explore and discover gene from him. I'll always be trying new ways of different things - not just Suboxone. It's just my nature

J

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 09, 2010 9:06 am 
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No, I don't think you're being argumentative or cross, just as I wasn't trying to be nasty. I understand what it is you're trying to say. Honestly, you're the only one (or I suppose a professional) who can decide whether you're dependent or addicted. It's not my place to tell you that. I hope the film helps you next month.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 09, 2010 10:58 am 
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No if they were coming out with a suppositore I would not try it thats sort morbid amn but to each his own I hope the film works for you I did get a good laugh out of your post thanks

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 09, 2010 4:25 pm 
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rsaylor8326 wrote:
No if they were coming out with a suppositore I would not try it thats sort morbid amn but to each his own I hope the film works for you I did get a good laugh out of your post thanks


Most people do, but I don't care about stuff like that - gotta do what ya gotta do...

I just grew so frustrated with the sublingual method I had to try something else, and this seemed like the next best thing - all I'll say for anyone who does try it, Lock the bathroom door - unless you like akward moments :lol:

From what I've read, the film will take care of my problem and I can shelve the Target dosage syringe - not to be gross, but there was a certain window of time where you had to be careful about coughing, sneezing, or any other body action that might result in an "accident", but that was rare. Besides, it's not something I look forward to every morning- just a necessary process. Trust me, I get a lot of ribbing on my other board, but they understand the sublingual method just doesn't work for me.

Glad you understand Hatmaker.

Thanks all
J

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 09, 2010 4:31 pm 
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I have never heard of this before, but besides myself I don't know any one else on subutex. I was just wondering where the term "starfish" comes from and what does it mean?


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 09, 2010 5:25 pm 
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It's a silly nickname for the anus - starfishing or plugging is slang putting a drug up the rear end as opposed to the intended method

J

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 09, 2010 6:22 pm 
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I have never tried it or even thought of it. But, I say "whatever works", in your situation your under the tongue area isn't what most people have so do what you gotta do! If it works, that's great. I'd prob do the same in your situation.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 09, 2010 7:46 pm 
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I have to say I am not a giant fan of anything in the anus except maybe my husband on a very rare occasion post excessive begging on his part. So I would have to say "no" I would not be excited about the suppository route. But I can understand why you decided to try it and think this is fine. I don't agree that it is addict behavior. A doctor is going to tell you to take it as prescribed because they can't really tell you anything different even if they think it since they would be remiss in doing so. If you were withholding this information because you were getting something out of this behavior that is beneficial to you and that your doctor wouldn't approve of or that might make him/her stop prescribing then I think that it could be addict behavior. HOWEVER, you aren't and like you said....you don't enjoy sticking things in your ass either.

Now. On the other hand, I think the whole opium thing is probably a sign of addict behavior and I might wave the addict flag at you for that one, but who am I to judge and if you are doing ok and you are functional and your wife is happy with the situation then I think you are ok for now. The true test of being an addict will really come when you try to go off the suboxone....if you ever decide that.

The film sounds interesting to me to be honest. I would certainly like to try it......but only if it has the same flavor it currently does.

Note: I didn't even open this thread for days because I was afraid you would be some freak of the week posting about something I didn't want to know about. Finally the curiosity caused me to look. Not as bad as I thought it would be.

Cherie

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 10, 2010 6:10 am 
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Jackcrack wrote:
I have to say I am not a giant fan of anything in the anus except maybe my husband on a very rare occasion post excessive begging on his part. So I would have to say "no" I would not be excited about the suppository route. But I can understand why you decided to try it and think this is fine. I don't agree that it is addict behavior.


LOL! Thanks Cherie - I appreciate your honesty - and the laugh. I think once men (Who seem to be the most squeamish about this) are in their 40's and have to get a yearly DRE from Dr. Bigfinger for their prostate, they'll be able to handle a 1/8 wide x 1/4 long childs dosage syringe tip no problem

Really, I only present it as am alternate ROA (Route of Administration) for people who have trouble for whatever reason with the sublingual. It will not get you high, and unless you took your drug of choice using this method, I really don't think it's addictive behavior. Odd to some, maybe, but not addictive :) Oh, Time - I also present it as a time saver. We're alking less than one minute start to finish once you get the routine down. That beats 20-40 minutes any day to me

I do think the bio-availability of the bupe is higher, and the incidents of swallowing too much Naltrexone are lower, so I believe it's allowed me to go from 8 mg steady to 4 mg steady for some time now - I have no scientific data to back this up, so, caveat emptor. I guess once the film comes out, and if it's allowed on the PAPS program, I'll find out if 4 mg sublingual is the same as 4mg rectally. I hope i is.

Anyway, this is all just my opinion and experience, so you can take it or leave it. :)

J

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 10, 2010 7:10 am 
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Honestly, for me, my brown eye is NOT an entrance, however, if I were faced with the complications that you are, and if I were open to experimentation, then I would certainly do the same.

I agree with you that unless one has taken their drug of choice via rectal administration, then what you are doing isn't really 'addict' behavior because, as you said, who WANTS to stick things in their ass? (No offense intended whatsoever. If you like things in your ass, great, if you're apathetic to things being in your ass and thus you put things in your ass, that is just fine as well, I am not one to judge at all). Most people are deterred from rectal administration unless it's a necessity, which in your case, it seems to be close to, if not, one.

If there was a suppository available that worked as you state it would, then perhaps I may consider it, but I can't really be sure. I am afraid to put things in my ass. I do not have the courage that you do. Maybe after a few drinks....

Anyway, I am glad that you are on Suboxone, that it is working for you, and that you were able to find a way to administer it that you find effective, and I don't see anything wrong with it, unless you are abusing your medication. As long as you aren't compromising your sobriety, or the health of your butthole, then I see nothing wrong with what you are doing.

:)


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 10, 2010 9:50 am 
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LOL! No, I take hygiene and health of all body parts (Cough cough smoker) seriously. No Starfish has been harmed during my experience

I guess because of chronic bouts of Prostatitis, which involves 6 week courses of Levaquin (A heavy duty Antibiotic that makes me feel awful) and agonizing weekly DRE's by Dr Bigfinger, When it comes to things like this, I'm like "Yeah, whatever works..." LOL

Thanks All
J

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 10, 2010 2:55 pm 
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Jack thanks of your honesty and sharing so much informaton on this topic.........now what was your point in referenc to doing this..........I couldn't get past the first sentence.......glad to see that husband of yours has his uniform on and is in the game......I for one am very proud of him. Is he in sales?


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 16, 2010 12:02 pm 
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yeah bro whatever works for you. recovery is all about the individual and if you're staying sober i'm not going to judge you on which administration method you prefer. everyone is different some dose once a day others (myself included) twice and maybe even more. i think if everybody(including dr's and pharmacist ) could get out of the conclusion one way is not the only way treatment would be a lot more successful for people. good luck with the film though


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 16, 2010 1:51 pm 
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I hate to admit this but I've done my share of plugging in the past. Not one of my proudest moments in active addiction. For some time I had an endless supply of 2mg dilaudid's, and taking them orally was pointless and my arms were a mess at the time so I would put them where the sun don't shine. It dose absorb and if you can't use as directed, it's probably not the worst alternative. There was a thread a few months ago with someone with the same problem and they resorted to snorting them. I would think between plugging or snorting, plugging would be the better way. Just my opinion. Be careful though, you might start to enjoy putting stuff up there. And jackcrack I need you to have a talk with my wife. Jk.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 16, 2010 4:16 pm 
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OK, this is the weirdest thread I've ever seen here :lol:

No offense to the OP, I totally agree that you've gotta do what you've gotta do, but man, this thread is a glaring example of TMI run amuck!


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 16, 2010 7:35 pm 
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Got that right Junkie.......I am just glad suboxone is not a stick.........


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