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PostPosted: Sat Jul 31, 2010 12:15 am 
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EDITED TO ADD: These posts were moved here from another thread in the Stopping Suboxone section of the board. I moved them because the thread had gotten way off topic and I wanted to make sure that the original poster in that thread was able to get the support she's seeking. The original thread is here: http://suboxforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=2404

I was asked to restore these posts to the main forum in the interests of transparency. I hope that we can use this as a starting place to have a productive discussion. Please read my post further down the thread before making a reply to this topic.

If anyone has any questions or concerns, please PM me. Thanks. DoQ.



beautifullybroken wrote:

Hope I can give you some motivation! I'm a motivation driven person. If your the type of person who gets motivated from people telling you that you can't or shouldn't or that your wrong for what your doing, you will get some of that from here too. Only listen to the ones that make you feel the best!

I hope you make it!! You've come this far, push a little harder, there will be a good ending, you will begin to feel normal again!


You know, if any of us advised you that jumping off a relatively high dose of Suboxone while you're in a serious depression was not the best idea, it was only because we care. Speaking for myself only, I said what I said to you out of concern and because I have been there. I tried to quit Suboxone once, unsuccessfully, early in my treatment, and it was painful. Then I read up and studied and I did a long, slow, taper and I've been off of Suboxone & opiate free for a year.

Wanting to share my experience and save other members physical and mental anguish is hardly the same as telling people that they can't or shouldn't do what they want. You posted here looking for support and I think that many people responded very generously with their time and experience. I have to say that I am hurt by your characterization of the response you received. Nevertheless, I wish you the best.

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Last edited by Diary of a Quitter on Sun Aug 01, 2010 12:33 am, edited 4 times in total.

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 31, 2010 12:36 am 
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Diary of a Quitter wrote:
beautifullybroken wrote:
Rebecca,

Hope I can give you some motivation! I'm a motivation driven person. If your the type of person who gets motivated from people telling you that you can't or shouldn't or that your wrong for what your doing, you will get some of that from here too. Only listen to the ones that make you feel the best!

I hope you make it!! You've come this far, push a little harder, there will be a good ending, you will begin to feel normal again!


You know, if any of us advised you that jumping off a relatively high dose of Suboxone while you're in a serious depression was not the best idea, it was only because we care. Speaking for myself only, I said what I said to you out of concern and because I have been there. I tried to quit Suboxone once, unsuccessfully, early in my treatment, and it was painful. Then I read up and studied and I did a long, slow, taper and I've been off of Suboxone & opiate free for a year.

Wanting to share my experience and save other members physical and mental anguish is hardly the same as telling people that they can't or shouldn't do what they want. You posted here looking for support and I think that many people responded very generously with their time and experience. I have to say that I am hurt by your characterization of the response you received. Nevertheless, I wish you the best.



I'm sorry.. I'm a little bit confused by the second paragraph of your post here. It could be because I"m very clouded in mind right now..But I'm gathering you feel I responded a certain way?
Please believe me when I say.. I could have avoided hell by listening to my doctors. I Would have saved my walls from my fist driving through them. Myself from the embarrassment of gong to the hospital over this and probably wouldnt be so underweight that my family is very concerned for me. But... When your not receiving the support of your doctor in doing what you feel is best..and your options are minimul living in a state where suboxone is unheard of.. I had no choice but to taper myself off.. the best way I could and live through the hell. Do I recommend it? Absolutely not. I hope everyone here has a great doctor. I can not say the same. I was simply saying..that all doctors do not look at us all as individuals. They look at us like a statistic..That we are all the same. We are not all the same.
But..I'm past that now. I have made it past the chemical withdrawl..and all this mental stuff that is coming now is what I have to deal with now. What comes tomorrow is what I will deal with then. one clean day at a time.


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 31, 2010 1:46 am 
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Quote:
Wanting to share my experience and save other members physical and mental anguish is hardly the same as telling people
that they can't or shouldn't do what they want. You posted here looking for support and I think that many people responded very generously with their time and experience. I have to say that I am hurt by your characterization of the response you received. Nevertheless, I wish you the best


Then why on Earth did you think I was talking about you???? I wasn't, I've always appreciated your kind words of understand through experience. And I don't think I've ever failed to tell you how much I appreciate our honesty.

Sometimes when we allow others to upset us over trivial matters it say's more about us than it does them.
Nevertheless, please don't get upset so easily, I would never defame your character. I have no reason.

Your comment, "you posted here looking for support and I think that many people responded very generously with their time and experience"
My response: What is that suppose to mean? Do you believe that anyone whom receives advise on this forum is forbiden from ever offering different advise to someone else? Well this is AMERICA last time I checked and you got more opinions here than A$$ H, nobody is going to conform for a chat forum. I have read multiple threads on this site where someone comes here asking for advise about quitting suboxone, maybe their on day 4 or day 6 having trouble looking for support and they immediately get the third degree and informed their plan will not work, advised that if they do this they will probably end up with P.A.W.S FOREVER and the OP get's scared and sometimes even say's, "oh maybe I was wrong, I'll continue to be a lifer, THANKS for all your help! Well what if that person could have made it, why on Earth can't they be supported no matter what? They know suboxone is here, most of them have it in their med cabinet, it's not like they can't go back. If someone believes they have become a person that can handle the challenges of life with drug abuse then APPLAUSE!!! SUBOXONE IS SUCCESSFUL. From some of the threads I've read I honestly believe some SOME of the people on this site are defensive as all get out, as if they are threatened by anyone saying suboxone I'm ready to come off, or anyone who complains they are having side effects that they are not able to handle. With any other drug everyone would say, 'oh you need to get off that drug, it's making you lethargic and your gaining so much weight" but not with suboxone.
I do not get it. I swear, I've tried. I don't understand why so many people here get so angry so quickly. No matter what anyone says, we all have to remember that ultimately the opinions belong to us as individuals.
I'm feel terrible that you said you are "hurt" over something I said, I still don't understand your perception of what that was but you have perceived it wrong. I honestly, never read your post. I was only, ONLY supporting the OP and preparing her for the negativity that so frequently comes.


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 31, 2010 5:18 am 
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Rebeccagirl, that first post from Diary was in response to BB. Diary's SECOND post was her responding to your situation. I just wanted to make that clear. This next paragraph is to beautifullybroken (BB):

And to BB - To think and to say that this forum is NOT supportive is disingenuous at best and blatantly misleading at worst. Just because some people don't agree with how you or someone does things does NOT mean there is no support, no empathy. And I think if you actually read the posts here in full with more than a second glance you'd understand that. Furthermore, as forums go, this one is far from angry or negative. Aside from an incomplete post about rapid-detox that you read and judged us for as a whole, what anger or arguments have you seen? That simply is not the norm here and to say that it is is very unfair and calculating of you. That's all I'll say on the subject as it's not fair to hijack Rebeccagirl's thread any further. Quite simply, your unfair judgment of this forum merited a response.

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 31, 2010 5:52 pm 
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Hatmaker510, this is for you:
This is a web forum, that means a public place where people will be posting individual opinions. If the views and expressions of individual opinions is too upsetting for you then go to a private forum where only specific opinions are allowed. I don't know what else to tell you. I have the right to say what ever I want, I don't give a rats behind if you don't like it. How's that for a merited response, :lol:

I can tell you one thing, It's horrible that when anyone comes to this forum saying they are having a hard time with their w/d symptoms the first response they get from all the regulars whom have dubbed themselves the PRO SUB'ers, is, "GET BACK ON THE SUBS" I mean honestly, after 3-4 months off of subs what could starting back and tapering fix? I mean that's your advise, right? Are you a doctor? Because that's no easy decision for someone off for 3-4 months, I'm glad you have the knowledge and background to make it for her though.

Per your comment, "just because someone doesn't agree with you or how you do things" what didn't you agree with? The fact that I'm quitting cold turkey, what's there to agree with, it's not a decision for you to agree with, it's mine! Don't you understand that? That's exactly what I'm talking about.

How do you know what I read? I posted several times that I've done hours and hours and hours of reading on suboxone and suboxone w/d's. FYI you don't have to be a member here to read the posts. I've read post after post here since I began subs 18 months ago, that rapid detox was terrible and it's not the only time someone has been down right jumped on for even saying the words "rapid detox" sugarcain, for instance got ZERO support here, no I take that back some non regular's did offer support, I could not believe my eyes when I read some of the things that a lot of the regulars on here posted. It was down right UGLY, she ended up getting extremely defensive but HELLO that's what people do when their being attacked, you should not attack someone because you don't agree with them. It's actually ok if you don't agree, and you can say, " I don't agree with it" but the way she was treated by this community you defended as being "kind and understanding " was reprehensible.

Just because you are on suboxone or have been on suboxone does not make you or anyone else the authority of suboxne. These are peoples lives here. It's not just a place for someone to come everyday because they believe themselves a know it all when they have no background medical history whatsoever.

IMO, this is just another attack, I'm being attacked because my views and opinions are not that of yours. I never said, "don't come here! It's a horrible place!" I only advised her that she should listen to the opinions that make her feel good about her decision, not those who second guess it. That's why people come to support groups, to be supported.

oh goodnessss, drama. It's not like me to entertain people that like drama, it must be the w/d's. Maybe I should take another sboxone, right! The fix all. My a$$!


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 01, 2010 12:31 am 
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First, I would like to apologize. Beautifullybroken, you are right. I read what you said about people saying that you're wrong or that you can't or shouldn't do what you're doing and I took it personally and I reacted. I apologize for that.

There is a lot of anger in this thread, but that doesn't mean that there aren't valid points being made. While I usually find the majority of the posts and members here to be very kind and supportive, we are by no means perfect. Sometimes when members post about difficulties they are having with withdrawal or side effects, we don't do the best job we can of hearing them and validating their concerns...and that kinda sucks.

Sometimes it is hard to hear someone who is really hurting, especially if their pain triggers something in us that makes us defensive or that we feel threatens our view of how things are. Sometimes it is difficult to realize that everyone has to go through their own process, and what is right for me might not be right for someone else. It's not an excuse, but for what it's worth, I do believe that most of the time people's hearts are in the right place and they reallly are trying to help. I know it's true for me - God knows I wouldn't spend so much time here if I didn't really care about the members and the community. Still, I realize that there's always room for improvement and I really do hope that something good will come out of this thread.

There is something that you all should know about this forum. I think that Dr. Juing said somewhere that he started the forum in part because there are so many forums and message boards online where the overwhelming majority of the members are very anti-Suboxone. People go there for support, and they get piled-on with very negative responses. He wanted this place to be supportive of people in recovery, whether they be on Suboxone, methadone, or nothing at all. He also wanted it to be a place that wasn't full of the misinformation that you can readily find in so many other places. So this is a pretty pro-Suboxone forum.

That said, I also have to say that I do realize that there are lots of people who have bad experiences with Sub. Whether it be uninformed/misinformed doctors, side effects, or problems tapering - Suboxone is not perfect. I wonder sometimes if we have tried so hard to make sure that the positive Suboxone success stories get heard that we have inadvertently silenced people who Suboxone just isn't working for. I know that many of us are concerned that newcomers will come here for information, read negative stories and get scared away. But that isn't an excuse for discouraging people from sharing their stories, their truth. We can do better than that.

So this is my challenge to myself and to everyone else here at the Zone. What can we do to make EVERY member feel supported and welcomed here? If you're having a great experience with Suboxone, how can you hear and support another member who isn't? Can we try to find a way to make a space for the anger without it bringing down the forum in the process? These are some things to think about, and I'm glad to hear anyone's suggestions either here or via PM.

I want to encourage everyone to continue on this discussion in a respectful manner. I'm leaving the posts that sparked the discussion for the sake of transparency, as I said above, but I would like to see everyone move on from that argument and not rehash what was said/not said, etc.

Thanks to everyone who has made it this far into this book of a post that I've just written. I look forward to hearing what everyone has to say.

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 01, 2010 5:24 am 
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Thanks Diary of a quitter,
I'm sorry this got out of control, but it's obviously a touchy subject. All of us here, as members or visitors are more than likely impacted by suboxone in a very strong way. Most people when they come here, myself included, have no idea what pro-suboxone or anti suboxone really means. Considering most of the people that stumble upon this forum are probably just looking to find other's on subs who can relate to their challenges. I mean people don't go around looking for support very often when things are going great! I don't, I came here because I was suffering from depression and I wanted to find out if anyone else had experienced it, one of the members which had been here a long time said my experience was rare, in researching this forum I've found multiple people going through the same experience as me, but it was that knee jerk reaction to say, "suboxone's been great for me" as if nobody can break the cardinal rule. Honestly, I don't get the whole anti suboxone / pro suboxone, it all just sounds like the perfect cocktail for an argument to me anyway and reason is; EVERYONE has a very different experience with suboxone and methadone too I'm sure, and what one person might be experiencing today may very well change tomorrow, it did for me. IMO we shouldn't give suboxone so much power, it's not suboxone calling the shots, it's us. We are the ones that are suppose to be here helping each other, not arguing about how wonderful suboxone is, or isn't. I'm sure at some point in time we all would have defended our doc, in fact most of us have, it didn't make it the miracle drug we had all wanted though and neither will this. it's never ever ever going to be wonderful for everyone on it, that's never going to happen. And negative experiences are just as REAL as positive ones. I can attest. But just because someone may come to the forum complaining and angry because they believe they were misinformed by their drs, well, let'em, their having a bad day. It's no big secrete, so the idea that you want to keep all negativity off of this forum, well you might as well shut it down because it won't be any good. What disappoints me the most about this support group is it's just a few people really, and if that's the way you want it then maybe change the name to suboxonesupportersonly, that would have given me the clue. I'm a member of a lot of forums, everything from children who suffer with chronic diseases to how to quit smoking, even though I quit, I'm still a member, never once before have I ever been on a forum and seen some of the shinanigans I've seen here. I don't mean that to sound nasty, it's just I've read so many many posts in an effort to learn about my w/d's and some of them just made me feel sad and defensive for the newcomer. I mean a lot of these people are in w/d or at a very hard time in their life, I can speak for both when I say, it's hard to think clearly and their probably more worried and stress driven than anything else so don't get all worked up over what they say, they don't understand the way this forum is, they probably just read suboxonetalkzone, like I did. There isn't anything that jumps out at you that say's don't say anything negative about suboxone. I have read multiple posts where newcomers have been advised to leave this forum and go to one titiled "subsuxs" or something. Idk, it just doesn't seem right, seems like a whole lot of anger and I'm not sure where it all comes from. I have noticied a lot of people on the web who are misinformed about suboxone but hey, you can't fix it all, if you have a good support group for people and continue the policy of not debating if suboxone is the right treatment or the wrong one then all should be good. So sorry to run on and on. I'm stuck awake, never slept tonight :(


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