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 Post subject: SOMEOne PLEASE HELP ME
PostPosted: Tue Sep 29, 2009 7:29 am 
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I have taken suboxone for app. 4 mos now. I am having the worst side effects that my "doctor" says he has not ever heard of. I dont know what to do & I am scared out of my mind.

I am on 1 pill of 8 mgs. My hands are STIFF like you would not even understand. They are numb & sore, pins & needles etc. I have had swelling in my ankles, cant stand up for too long or my legs get sore, very achy especially in the morning. I can hardly kneel down. I feel like I am 80 years old. I am scared to death as it is getting worse every day, especially the hands. This all didnt start until I was on this med for 3 weeks or so. My dr knows nothing of this & doesnt seem to care. Every time I start to cut down to 3/4 a pill I get wds. I am getting a lot of anxiety every day. I tried calling another dr however, they wont see me unless I start their payment plan with a huge payment, & I dont have it.

Can someone tell me if you have heard of these side effects & what I can do to alleviate them? Am I just crazy or something. I have two little girls, one with special needs & it is not good for me to suffer like this when I need to take care of them.

I'll wait in front of the computer all day waiting for responses. I am 41 years old, I feel like I'm 80 with a massive case of carpal tunnel.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 29, 2009 8:12 am 
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Are you taking ANYTHING else as far as medication? Do you have any ailments such as Diabetes,heart issues,kidneys? Tell me about your medical background.

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 Post subject: Yes
PostPosted: Tue Sep 29, 2009 12:58 pm 
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I take Klonopin as needed for generalized anxiety & cymbalta for depression, which has lifted alot since starting suboxone. I juice apples, carrots, beets etc daily. I have asthma so I use an inhaler also. Thats it. My hands are the worst, feels like I am constantly holding a jackhammer, some feeling is lost in my fingertips, achiness, stiff & when it gets to aroud 5:00 PM I start feelin it worse & in the morning I cant even close my hands to make a fist.

If I try to wean down 1/4 of a 8mg pill, I start feeling withdrawals. I constantly yawn & have this feeling like I need to stretch however even when I do stretch my body feels like it cant fully, this is all the time, not when I am just trying to cut down.

I am terrorfied of tapering off due to the fact that going down to just 1/4 a pill makes me feel so lousy, it even makes me feel very emotional & I cry alot.

Any ideas? I'm afraid all these side effects might do some permanent damage to me even if they are only occurring due to the med.

D


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 29, 2009 2:19 pm 
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I am not a Dr. And can only speak for my experience. I have been taking it for almost 8 months, and take 12-16mg daily. Age 29. Suboxone made my legs sore, both the muscles and joints, most noticably in the morning. People would say "how do you know this is caused by suboxone?". Because sub was the only med I was taking at that time. Honestly it has improved over time and I am being proactive in stretching and excersizing.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 29, 2009 7:52 pm 
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Try stopping the cymbalta, I tried it once and had bad results...but I do remember that when I used and took cymbalta the next day I felt stiff all over, and couldn't make a fist because my fingers were swollen and stiff. Also try a NSAID for the pain (like alleve, advil, ect.) it will help the inflammation in turn helps pain.

Jay Jay


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 29, 2009 9:13 pm 
The symptoms you're describing do not sound like they have anything to do with your Suboxone. I know that's probably not what you want to hear. But I think it's probably just coincidence that these problems started 3 weeks into your taking Suboxone. I am not a doctor and not an expert on Suboxone or much of anything else for that matter. Perhaps the Suboxdoc will chime in on this.
Just my personal experience on Suboxone for about 3 months now - I have noticed several different aches and pains and complaints since I got on this med. I know they are not related to Suboxone. I tend to look at it this way - I'm just more aware of everything now that I am not constantly numbed up on opiates all the time.
I am not minimizing your symptoms. They sound fairly severe and bothersome. Since you have already consulted with your Sub doc and he has denied them being due to Sub, you probably need to get in with your general practice doc and get some things worked up. You may indeed have carpal tunnel or you may have something going on with your kidney function causing you to swell. There are a variety of things that can cause swelling and soreness of the legs.
An easy thing to try would be to do as Rationale suggested and work on stretching and exercise. Another thing I found in my practice as a nurse was that people tend to restrict their fluid intake when they have swelling, when in fact you should do the opposite. Stay well hydrated by drinking generous amounts of water so that your body won't think it needs to hold on to fluids so much.
Hope you find some relief!


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 Post subject: it is the meds
PostPosted: Tue Sep 29, 2009 9:29 pm 
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Taking Celexa for over a year, didnt have these side effects until I started the sub.

I have had every test known to man from my regular doc & everything came up negative.

What is it in this drug that causes all these joint & muscle aches, vertigo, water retention etc. My body does not like this stuff however it works so well for cravings & depression. I dont know what to do.

Thanks so much everyone for your help.
:?:


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 30, 2009 2:29 pm 
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suboxone isn't for everyone...I know its not what you want to hear but there are other options, like methadone, or just simply taking less buprenorphine. Try hot compresses, or what has given me tremendous relief from pain without pills is a product called Bio Freeze, I've been able to find it at a couple stores in my area like CVS. I swear by it. All I have for ya hope it helps.

JAYJAY


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 03, 2009 12:17 pm 
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I don't have more to offer than what has been said. Suboxone contains two chemicals-- not counting any 'binders' or 'fillers' that all medications contain, that are usually inert substances. The two chemicals are naloxone and buprenorphine. Both have been used by doctors for decades-- 20-30 years. There is nothing 'new' in Suboxone; the new invention is just the way to take it. In past years some people 'in the know' about opiates would take buprenorphine by liquid form-- it was sold in vials for IV use, but would be placed in the mouth for absorption. The brand name was 'Temgesic' (I don't know if it is still made or not). Naloxone has also been around for a long time; it has been in every hospital ER and on ambulances for years, to use to reverse heroin or oxycodone overdoses. It is used in the operating room sometimes to reverse the narcotic effects a small bit, if a person is not waking up right away from the anesthetic.

Neither chemical has been connected to the symptoms you are describing. Buprenorphine has very specific effects at receptor sites on nervous tissue in the brain, spinal cord, and throughout the body; I have never seen symptoms in my own practice or described in the literature that are outside of the effects that any other opiate would have. In other words, if you didn't get these symptoms from whatever opiate you were using, you shouldn't get them from bupe. The naloxone, likewise, has specific effects. We know many things about naloxone; understand that if a drug is around for awhile, there will be tons of literature about what the drug does in this case or that case, as there are many docs and chemists who want to publish papers. I had a case report myself a few years ago about the Atkins diet-- google Junig and atkins and you will probably find it. Those types of reports come out every month by the hundreds, if not thousands. My point is that if there is something wrong with a medication, it will be written about eventually. And these drugs have been around a long time.

So what is going on? I don't think you are crazy, or making this up. I think there are three options. The first is that the timing is purely coincidental, and you have lupus or some other auto-immune disorder. You mention that 'all the tests are negative'--- but understand that there are many people in every doctor's practice that have severe, horrible symptoms that can never be diagnosed. Many of these people actually end up as opiate addicts! I do wonder-- were you treated with opiates for a pain disorder, or did you just use them recreationally? Perhaps you had a progressive pain condition that was covered up by high doses of narcotics that now is 'unmasked' off the narcotics. Just a thought. As for the 'negative test' thing, there are usually positive test findings to med side effects, just as there are to diseases. If a medication is causing a reaction, for example, with the immune system, there will be changes in the 'sed rate', white blood counts, etc-- not to mention a rash, fever, or other physical findings. So the absence of positive tests doesn't mean that it is therefore from the drug.

OK, I said 3 things-- the second option is that you have a psychiatric disorder such as conversion disorder or somatiform disorder. I have seen patients with those conditions many times. The patient is NOT 'faking it', and has no idea that it is coming from the brain and mind. A person with those conditions will have symptoms like yours that cannot be distinguished from a non-psychiatric disorder. Just thinking that "I'm not making this up" does not mean you don't have somatiform disorder-- those folks are not making it up either! Treatment involves the usual things-- therapy, SSRI's, exercise, and work on relationships. People with these disorders often have bad relationships-- either abusive, or perhaps lacking any true intimacy. Or the person is completely alone.

Third... and least likely: with every medication there will be a person who for reasons not understood reacts negatively. There used to be talk about 'multiple chemical sensitivities'-- people who had reactions including a wide range of symptoms to chemicals used in everyday life-- chemicals from carpets, from paints, from vehicle emissions, from trace substances in foods.... Usually there is never a good reason for the problem-- no test findings, no patterns of symptoms that tell what is going wrong-- you would think that the immune system is the key, and that the person is having an immune response to the chemical, but usually the markers of an immune response are not present. These people often end up as addicts as well-- to opiates, but also to benzos.

That's all I can come up with. For you specifically, I note that you take a benzo and cymbalta, and if you got addicted from prescribed opiates, all of those things tell me that you had some somatic complaints in the past-- someone gave you a pill to calm your nerves, a pill to reduce anxiety and pain, and perhaps opiates for pain. Whatever you were treating back THEN is still going to be present when you take Suboxone. This is key-- go back to whatever it was that got you to take a benzo, an SNRI, and narcotics, and look at THOSE symptoms-- because you have not gotten rid of that 'disorder' or condition or state of mind by going on Suboxone. I also point out that trying to cut back on clonazepam will cause the symptoms you are describing and more-- so as you try to figure things, out, make sure that you aren't simply withdrawing from that, or from the Cymbalta, as someone already pointed out.

I am exhausted-- so I'll stop. I wish you the best though; I would probably recommend tapering off the Suboxone just so you know if that is the cause or not. Maybe first I would change you to Subutex for a few months and see if you do better-- maybe the 'drug reaction' is coming from the naloxone. Unlikely, but possible. If you do taper, I talk about it on my blog, and also sell recordings that go through the withdrawal process in detail at my site
Sober After Suboxone.

JJ


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 Post subject: ATTn: suboxdoc
PostPosted: Sat Oct 03, 2009 8:40 pm 
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Very interesting. I have had depression since my parents divorced when I was 15 years old, controlled with antidepressants (I am 42 years old now). I have taken klonopin on & off for app. 10 years. I use it as needed only & never was even accommodated to it.

I had severe endometriosis which is where the evil pain killers entered my life. I got addicted to oxy, went into a detox to get off of them 6 years ago. The cravings that I have are overly intense. I have gone many many months at a time not taking any at all, also didnt take any during 2 long pregnancies. So I could not mask anything with drugs cuz I was drug free most of the time over the past six years. It was the cravings that made me mental which is why I am on this med.

As far as my symptoms, I had major swelling in my ankles, calves & feet. That went away. I dont that could e a psychosomatic symptom. The swelling has mostly gone away thank God. Then I had tons of joint pain & could hardly get up in the morning. That has also gone away. I have constipation which is a known side effect. The very last side effect that I am having right now is a carpal tunnel sensation in my hands. My dr said he has seen people with my side effects as far as the swelling & carpal tunnel goes. He said in his opinion, he thinks somehow something in this medication causes some people's system to think it is pregnant, hence the swelling/carpal tunnel. I dont know.

I have googled this stuff & have found some people (all women) have experienced these side effects. They said when they cut down on the Suboxone or stopped it completely, the symptoms went completely away.

You should also know that my endometriosis is gone since I had a hysterectomy 5 years ago.

I had panic attacks real awful in high school & was diagnosed with general anxiety disorder, which I do have. Again, I only take the klonopin as needed, sometimes only a couple of times a week. I noticed I am needing it more after taking Suboxone for a couple of months. Dont know why that is.

Anyway, I had my white count tested, liver, kidneys & a hosts of other tests through my regular doc & all those came out negative as I previously stated.

I am left to think it is the Suboxone or something in it that is causing me to have all of this random stuff happening as this is the only new thing that has happened to me. I am also in a very loving, caring awesome relationship. You mentioned something on that in your post.

When I was rx'd LUPROn to put me in a "menopausal" state while I had the endo (nasty drug), I experienced awful "hand pain". It was crazy, not even close to what is happening to my hands right now. It was a small circle on the top of my hands that felt the extreme pain. I was tested for everything long story short, when I stopped the lupron, the pain diminished. There was less than 1% of the people that had this side effect, I happened to be one of them. I think I am just sensitive to different meds. not sure, however, I do want to cut down my dose from 8 mgs to who knows what, I am just not ready yet to completely stop this med as I have no cravings at all & I have never felt more normal.

What do you think?
Thanks for responding.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 04, 2009 4:07 am 
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I'm not a Doctor but I am a Medic... (a doctor is more suited for this question)

Do you have any redness or swelling?

There are many MANY things it can be, these are just a couple ideas from the symptoms you describe.

Some patients who have had some of these symptoms turned out to have a food allergy.
Try changing your diet completely for a week or so and see if you notice any changes.Things like.. (Salts), (Gluten)- Starches, Breads, Pasta etc.

You also could have arthritis. There are over 100 different types of Arthritis and it can strike anyone at any age. (Stiffness in joints, "Pins & Needles", Pain & Tenderness, Inflammation, Joint Deformity... etc.)
Try an NSAID like Ibuprofen, Naproxen or Aleve.

It could be that now you're off the "drugs", your brain is sending out the pain signal to get you to take the "drugs" again.
I started taking pain meds because of my sever back pain and when I decided to quit because I didn't want to take them for the rest of my life... I went into W/D's and my back started SCREAMING! It still is to this day! I know to take care of it; but I'm not going to give my brain what it wants. I just take a little ibuprofen and it helps... perhaps you should try that to.

Let us know if you figure it out.


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 Post subject: Hi there
PostPosted: Sun Oct 04, 2009 7:51 am 
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Well, I had the severe swelling, & that went away. Then I had the severe stiffness everywhere when I woke up in the morning, then that went away. I had vertigo (which I never had in my life & that went away), now I have the constant tingling in my hands & they are very achy & painful & stiff. I am hoping that also will go away. I will def let everyone know what happens. Thanks for everyones help.
D


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 04, 2009 12:34 pm 
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I'm sorry you're having to deal with some pretty rough symptoms I just wanted to add though as Dr. Junig and EMT have noted that in my experience I believe I've gone through opiate cravings that caused me to feel physical pain. I had to have a spinal fusion awhile back and everytime I've gone through treatment or was tapered off whatever opiate I was on at the time I would extreme back pain. I know many of us have severe bone aches and pains while in withdrawals but it was so bad I couldn't function. The pain did go away however after being clean for more than a month or so but the times I've tried to stay clean through an abstinence based recovery program I had back pain that would come and go. Basically I'm just agreeing with the others who've shared that psychological conditions can cause extreme physical pain as I know that it's happened to me. I think it's worth exploring every possibility if you're unable to deal with whatever is causing the problems for you and if it were me I'd at least have the possiblity of any kind of psychological condition examined by a proffessional if you've ruled out all other alternatives.

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 Post subject: I understand....
PostPosted: Sun Oct 04, 2009 7:47 pm 
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what everyone is saying, however, I am seeing a counselor & have for a while. This is most def some kind of crazy reaction I am having from this med & I am not surprised as I reacted strangely to other meds in the past. I dont think it is a psychological issue that my ankles swelled up the size of treetrunks. I was never on opiates for long periods of time in the last 5 years. I used on & off as I didnt want to use at all. I was using recreationally & I hated it. I was using to cover up my depression. The only real serious symptom I have now is the carpal tunnel like symptoms in my hands & the tingling & no feeling is drivivg me crazy. As previously stated, I have googled this & found others who have had these similar symptoms until they either decreased their dose or stopped completely. I will have to wait & see I guess.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 04, 2009 10:46 pm 
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I experienced similar symptoms in my hands and wrists while I was on Suboxone. I thought it was carpal tunnel too. After some time dealing with the pain/tingling/numbness, I noticed that I was curling my hands and wrists while I was sleeping.

It's kind of hard to explain, but let me try. Several times I woke up in the middle of the night because my hands were "asleep" - you know the no-blood-flow feeling? And I had to rub them and go through the pins and needles thing and get the feeling back before I could go back to sleep. Then I woke up one night and noticed that both my wrists were bent forward and my hands and fingers were curled in - not like a fist, my finger tips were pointed towards the inside of my wrist. I was like: WTF?

So I rubbed my arms and hands to get them relaxed and went back to sleep. It was kinda scary, and the last thing I wanted to do was go to my doctor saying I thought I had carpal because I already have a fibromyalgia diagnosis so they think I'm full of shit anyway. I do type a moderate amount, so I thought maybe that was it.

This went on for a while with the night-time issues as well as the carpal-type pain in the daytime. I didn't know what the hell was going on. I had some other unrelated pain that I was trying to treat, so I checked out The Trigger Point Therapy Workbook from the library. It has a chapter about carpal-tunnel pain, numbness, tingling, etc and how it can be caused by trigger points in your arm muscles and neck muscles. So I followed the directions in the book and sure enough there were really painful spots in my forearms right where the book said they would be. Huh.

Anyway. A trigger-point is a spot of chronic tension in a muscle. It hardly ever hurts until you press directly on it, but it can refer pain to another part of the body. Once I worked on those points, the issues with my hands and wrists resolved. I had woken up every night with my hands asleep or curled for a couple of months, and after the first time I massaged those points it never happened again.

I also used this book to resolved some headaches that I thought were Suboxone related, as well as to get rid of most of my fibro pain. Which tells me that I didn't really have fibro, but that's another post. I can not recommend this book enough. It's like my bible. I thought I had arthritis in my knees, but I fixed that too. Best 25 bucks I ever spent.

Hope that helps.

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 Post subject: Thank GOD
PostPosted: Mon Oct 05, 2009 12:08 am 
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Thank you Jack,

Whether it is Su oxone related or one is more "prone" to these issues while on the drug, I Know that the new issues I have are from this drug!! I dont know what the hell I am doing while I sleep cuz I sleep deep since I started taking this. I know for a fact previous to my "induction date", I always slept with my hands curled just like you explained. Usually only with one hand though. They sell a type of mechanism that keeps your wrists straight while you sleep so this doesnt happen. I wonder if I wore them if the symptoms would go away.

I also had a fairly tight pair of socks on today & when I took them off, noticed I was retaining a lot of water still, not nearly as much, still a lot though. I am positive that these symptoms are either caused directly or indirectly from su oxone (that letter sticks lol). I hope these things go away as I really want to stay on this stuff. Thanks for your post. I will check out that ook you recommended:)
D


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 05, 2009 1:01 am 
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Yeah, I totally think my (and your) symptoms could be related to Suboxone. One thing I've noticed about many doctors is that they will just dismiss what you are telling them if it doesn't fit with their preconceived notions about things. Like when my daughter was a baby and got sick every time she was vaccinated, her doctor insisted it was just a coincidence. Once or twice maybe, but every single time...I think not.

I have heard of people getting edema while on Suboxone too, for what thats worth. Since you don't have the book yet, you could just try massaging your forearms. If you find any points that are especially painful you can apply pressure and release about 6 times. It hurts but is so worth it. The points in the neck are harder to find - they are in the scalene muscles. Google can help!

I hope you feel better soon.

PS - I wonder why we were sleeping like that? So strange.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 05, 2009 1:03 am 
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Also - I just remembered that I had problems with my wrist when my daughter was a newborn, tendonitis or something from holding her to nurse. The doc gave me a brace that kept my wrist straight while I slept and it did help.

-Allie

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 Post subject: Having the same issues!
PostPosted: Mon Oct 26, 2009 9:55 am 
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I know your post is a few months old however i hope you are still posting. I awoke this morning having made the decision to call my doctor, i am having the same symptoms. The stiffness in my joints has gotten to the point that I fear I may have arthritis. although I must say I am somewhat relieved that others on Sub are having some of the same issues. I started showing symptoms of swollen ankles ( dr gave me lasix ) 2 months after beginning treatment and the stiffness in my joints began shortly after that. It began with stiffness all over my body after very short periods of rest. It has now gotten to the point that I cant make a fist for most of the day and like you, I feel 80 yrs old! To get up from a kneeling position is dreadful.
Please let me know how you are and what you have done for help. PS I take 12mg daily along with lasix 20mg when needed and provigil 200mg daily (prescribed this for extreme sleepiness..i would fall asleep very very easily even while driving... yet another side effect)
thanks in advance!


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 28, 2009 8:30 am 
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That exact thing happened to me about a month after taking suboxone. My swelling and stiffness emulated Rheumatoid arthritis.So for about 8 months not knowing it was the suboxone I went to so many Dr's that didn't have any answers for me .I finally figured out that it could be the suboxone and I cut my dose more than half, I'm on 2 1/2 mgs and all the swelling and stiffness went away,Thank God,and that dosage still manages my pain. I hope this helps you.


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