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PostPosted: Sat Dec 08, 2012 4:42 pm 
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Hey Lilly,

I certainly don't think my wife gives me a free pass every time I slip. What she doesn't do is punish a $50 crime with a $5000 fine. She's smart enough to know that if she jumps knee deep in my shit when I have a little slip that I'm gonna start hiding shit from her. Look at some of the other people on here who have spouses that have zero tolerance for their spouses addiction. Laddertipper is a good example. IMO, she was so freakin' afraid to come clean to her husband that her use continued and got ridiculously out of control. She knew her husband would probably leave her and take the kids, so she tried to kill herself. Now, is my wife really doing such a bad job?

My 2nd relapse stopped because of mt wife and my friend. I had used for almost 2 weeks straight and my dose was steady escalating. She had talked my friend into basically kidnapping me. They were gonna hog-tie me, put me in the back of a car and drop me off at a rehab. To me, that was no free pass.

After my third slip, she called my addiction counselor and asked him what he thought she should do. He told her to have me come up and see him so he could evaluate me. Same thing with my 4th slip. As far as I see it, my wife relies on her discretion and the aid of my addiction counselor as to what's best for me. Seems pretty darn smart to me.

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 Post subject: Romeo
PostPosted: Sat Dec 08, 2012 7:04 pm 
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Romeo...........Ok this is how it happens from where it turns from hand holding to telling you the truth and you actually seem to get it and then you turn right around and get in the defensive mode. That's the way us addicts work..........I still see you making excuses for your slip/relapse or whatever you call it now.....it's always been around....it was ok to buy where I am from.........blah blah blah.......When someon says what have you done this you suddenly say alot ............First we are hearing and then in the same thread you say perhaps I should ring my addiction counsleor.

If you want to be in my shoes...........go to rehab. Anybody that just got done saying I am miles ahead of any newcomer or anyone in rehab ...................needs to be in rehab. I have been in and out of AA for 20 fking................years and you know what I don't shit except I am sick and when I keep getting sick I go to the hospital.........................or rehab.

Yes Romeo you can say all the right things and make people think we got it all together.......that is what we do .........we are addicts.cons.......You tried NA and it didn't work for you...........Why ROMEO did it not work for you...........You know I personally know the answer to that question. You have to be focused on recovery..........not who is in recovery.......

I care about you man but you know it all and you know how to fix it............why would you even stop going to an addiction counsleor and why would your wife have to call him instead of you..................Do what your suppose to do I am telling you the next slip might not bring you back. That was my biggest fear that I would never be able to stand up again and get my life together.....I am not sure I even will but I went back to treatment.......was humble and my Dr. who also was in recovery say "What time did you wake up this morning"? I said 5:30 a.m. and he responded you have 30 more minutes of sobriety then I do............this is day by day sometimes minute by minute.........We think we are so slick and smart but I am telling you Romeo everyone around us and especially other addicts can read right into that bullshit..........

Keep helping people because that is something you do well...........but in order to help someone or love someone your have to be ok or love yourself........I know this is going to piss you off or other members but I don't care.........Do we all want to sit around one day and posting instead of Has anyone heard from Laddertripper.............Has anyone heard from Romeo.........

Damn.............Man.,

Jim


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 08, 2012 8:26 pm 
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Hey Jim,

I appreciate the fact that you care, I honestly do, but with all due respect, you're not a recovery expert. My addiction counselor is a recovery expert and I went ahead and called him. I've got an appointment set up for Monday. We'll go from there.

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 Post subject: Good for you......
PostPosted: Sat Dec 08, 2012 11:03 pm 
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Good for you.......so you got it all figured out. With all due respect too bad he was not able to help the last time. Done now.......and never claimed to be your addiction expert just an addict with a big mouth that sometimes I can back it up. When I can't I say nothing........I know the truth stings about the NA comment and intentions versus what it should have been about but I will keep that to myself. Sometimes you just have to say Done...........so I will. Good Luck with your recovery. I truly hope you find the solution for yourself and your family. If you do please share with the group. It;s amazing when we come on here and open our hearts expecting love in return and then someone really tells us what we already know...........but like you said I am not your addiction expert. I hope you start a thread about your therapy so others can see how valuable those addiction counselors are.

You now have your thread back and I will offer no more advice or concern as it seems you have a plan. Again GOOD FOR YOU..........

Jim


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2012 12:59 am 
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Gotta love that old fashioned AA style tough love.


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2012 2:21 am 
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TeeJay wrote:
Gotta love that old fashioned AA style tough love.


Yep, TeeJay.... I agree. Exactly one of the reasons I had to slow down on my NA meetings.... It's all or nothing. They don't accept anyone on maintenance meds, but they'll tell ya 100 times that it's just a slip... keep coming back.

I don't agree with their way of showing support so I have backed away from attending their meetings. We can all sit here and say what we think Romeo should do and what we would do... blah, blah, blah, but the truth is, none of us know what path we'll take... none of us know for certain what we'll choose to do when we're done with suboxone treatment, but I am fairly certain that more than a few us will slip, probably more than once.

Romeo, I said it before and I'll say it again. You are still doing awesome. You've been honest with yourself, your wife, and all of us. I don't think you're wife is giving you a "get out of jail free card", she's been with you at your worst. She didn't walk away then, she's not walking away now, she flushed the codeine and she's working with you and your addiction counselor. She's there for you and that shows a lot of respect, trust and honesty between you both.

All you can do is go forward. I don't think you're trying to make excuses for what you've done... Hell, you didn't even have to jump on here and be honest at all. You could have just sat behind your computer acting as if you've never slipped, but you didn't.

I totally agree with Amber, her comments from before. Can't change the past, but you're making a hell of a lot of improvements, especially after 26 years in active addiction, using whatever you could get your hands on. We are addicts and it's kind of what we do. Maybe this is your path? I don't know... I think you can change that path, but maybe it is what it is. Doesn't change the fact that you've come so damn far.

I just hope that when I'm done with my sub treatment, no matter what choices I make, I hope I can be as honest with myself and others as you have... You can't change what's done, all you can do is move forward, but that doesn't change the amount of clean time you DO have! I'm glad you have a plan with your addiction counselor, and I'm certain that by working with them, you'll get this figured out and eventually you'll stop making these mistakes...

Another thing I totally agree with Amber and tinydancer is, why is it that being sick can almost always trigger a relapse for some people? A couple months ago, I got a form of swine flu... had it for almost 12 days and the dr. said there wasn't a damn thing I could do but ride it out.... I swear, if I had had something, I am almost certain I would have taken it! I felt like shit, puking, weak, felt like withdraws all over again. I remained on the sub, but like I said, I would have taken anything just to "feel better!" I would talk to your addiction counselor about that maybe, but just know that you're not the only one who is more prone to slipping when you're sick. I've been there and when I read you, Amber, and tinydancer felt the same way, I realized that it must be fairly common....

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2012 4:16 pm 
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I've been reading about willpower and I learned 2 things. First, the body has a limited storage of a "pause and plan" response. It is like "flight or flight", where there are complex instinctive biological processes going on, but, it requires more energy. And willpower needs glucose to work. And it requires energy to work. What happens is, if the body realizes it is being faced with something that threatens its wants or goals, it sends a bunch of energy to the brain that makes it release chemicals that makes the body relax, which makes you re-think what you're doing. But it doesn't work instantly like the "fight or flight" response. So that's why you have to tell yourself to wait 10 minutes when you have a craving, because in 10 minutes your body might have released relaxation chemicals. But, if your body doesn't have enough glucose to make energy, it may never release those chemicals. You may never relax and be able to think through your craving. So if the immune system is compromised, like when you are sick, you will have a much harder time dealing with cravings because your body isn't producing enough energy to relax and think clearly. It is common sense though, like how, when you've had a long day at work and you have to go to the store to get shampoo, it's hard to decide from the 10 different shampoos to choose from. If you're tired you're just going to pick one instead of reading each label and weighing the pros and cons of each bottle.

And the second thing I learned is that often time guilt does not work. Now, this is the scientists findings of "often times", I'm sure that for some people, guilt really does work. But anyways, the article said that many times guilt does not work because guilt makes people feel bad, and many times people's habits have told them that when they feel bad, they have to go turn to whatever their bad habit is in order to feel good. So many times guilt has the opposite effect. I thought I wanted tough love, instructed people to be mean to me if I didn't follow my taper schedule, and then after they would yell at me I would say Fuck You I'm going to do whatever I want! OK little sub where are you baby it's OK.. ahhh.... that's better. Well anyways, I'm sure it works for some people but just wanted to share something I read cuz I've been guilting one of my friends for years to stop doing so many drugs and it has not worked and often drove him to drink and you know, just wanted to share that and maybe just remind everyone if that happens to you that it might happen to other people too.


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2012 10:58 pm 
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Thats interesting IM. I like reading stuff like that.

It make sense....In AA/NA they say if you start thinking about using you should think HALT. Am I Hungry, Angry, Lonely, or Tired..
Sitting down for a few minutes and figuring out what the real problem is can work. Maybe giving the brain a little glucose or time to relax is what it needs.

Im not some die hard AA person but some of the stuff works. After my latest relapse I sat in IOP for a month crying and living in shame. One guy finally called me out during group. He said Im never going to get anywhere in life if I dont stop crying and do something different. It pissed me off but he was right. He totally motivated me to change. Sometimes tough love is what a person,needs. If I was Mrs. Romeo I would be kickin some ass right about now!

Good luck with your addiction counselor Romeo, Im glad you are taking steps to get some help!


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 10, 2012 8:04 am 
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[font=Comic Sans MS]Thank you for posting that InvisibleMovement! I LOVE reading stuff like that as well. And it makes total sense too.
When I tried to quit smoking, this was true of those cravings too. I would wait like 5 minutes. It didn't always
take 10, and the craving would be gone. I read somewhere that it takes 21 days to make or break any HABIT.
Not addiction, habit. That certainly held true for me with smoking. The habit part was gone in 3 weeks. I no longer
reached for them, out of habit, after I ate, or when I was driving. The CRAVINGS however, are a totally different
story. I love that you just made complete sense out of it for me! The human brain is an awesome, and amazing thing.
I love anything that has to do with how the mind works. I'm going to look into that today when the kiddo is asleep.

I agree with what InvisibleShadow and Orange Doll both pointed out too. That while AA and NA have this tough love
approach, like InvisShadow said, they aren't all bad. I did back away from them as well, for the same reasons that
InvisibleShadow did. But it is true that they have some good ideas. The HALT one almost always worked for me.
I was always either, hungry, angry, lonely, or tired....when I wanted to use.

While I don't agree ENTIRELY with the way Jim said everything, I do agree with what he said. HOwever, I'm with
InvisibleMovement on this one. Guilt ALWAYS made me go use more. Who wants to deal with that feeling????
It was the main reason Icontinually used in the first place. To deal with the guilt over losing my daughters.
Anyone who made that guilt intensify (my mother), just saw me get more and more effed up. I do admit that the tought
love approach can be of use, and works for some people....maybe a lot of people. But I am not one of them. I beat myself
up enough for all of us combined. I don't need anyone else doing it for me. What I need is compassionate support. I was
recently told in a firm but caring way that what I was asking of someone, was addicitve behavior. And they were right.
I just had to think about it more. Had they come at me with this harsh tone and guilt inducing attitude, I don't think
that I would have even considered what they had to say.

I think that our stories are all unique in the path we took to get to wherever we are. I think that we are all individuals,
and that we all have individual needs. What works for some, may not work for others. I don't think that you, Romeo,
are one of the people that responds well to guilt and harsh truths. I am not either. I will get defensive every time,
even if it isn't warranted. It is just who I am. If we don't learn what works for us, then how can we ever move
forward? It's like the $5000 fine for a $50 crime analogy. It's not like you went on a 3 month bender. You know what
you did, and YOU do what YOU need to do for YOU and your family. Take Care~Kelly[/font]

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 Post subject: 5th Time's the charm
PostPosted: Mon Dec 10, 2012 10:15 pm 
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Just joking with the header Romeo. Guess what? We are all very sick addicts. The basic principle in AA/NA is to hit bottom and have a spiritual awakening. That is not going to happen to you buddy (I mean I hope not) so find the next best thing. What that is I haven't a clue. All I know is I and most all the other members here are very sick people who are so used to their ego's running the show that they forget just how sick they are. Will we ever get better? Yes, I think so, as long as we keep trudging the road of happy destiny and constantly strive to be better people.

Were there any warning signs prior to you getting sick and slipping? With me, if I want to truly stay clean and sober, I need to always go to meetings and make good friends that I can depend on 24/7. This last part is lacking in my life but I do know how to solve it.

You have my number, call me if need be.

Rule

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 Post subject: opening the door
PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2012 11:17 pm 
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This tapering caper, is hard, very hard, the waves of anxiety, constantly breaking in your mind. And it's something new to me,-tapering, but I chopped my dose by a third to 0.8mg and I'm feeling the drop,and getting zero sleep.
Rule, the 5th time is way harder than the fourth. My 5th time came in my forties too, and it started sort of like Rome's- a bit here a bit there. Then it was out of control before I knew it, the horse had bolted, rehab failures etc,,,now three years on sub and I've decided if I don't get off this time, it's back on sub or methadone till the end. It's just too much to deal with.
When ladder hinted she was going thru PAWS and drinking cough medicine, I figured that probably had lot to do with relapse potential, and likely causing the discomfort. It takes absolutely nothing to get those receptor's all messed up again.
Your mind just doesn't think quite as quick as your relapse develop's. Trully a bewildering disease, and when you try and quit or are in recovery the drugs come to you, like magic- Black Magic.
Good Luck Romeo


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 15, 2012 5:13 pm 
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HALT I remember that from NA about a decade ago. I was thinking about that yesterday. I ate and the cravings went away once i got some sustenance in my body. I didn't realize you had slipped back into active using if ever so briefly until i came onto the other board a few hours ago looking for something anyhting to help me in my quest to get off sub. romeo I hope you are doing better. You were the one i was referred to this past summer by @way on the methadone board. I appreciate the -emails this summer when i started sub. But I really feel @ 34 it is time for me to get off this merry-go-round. But I am know now that if this can happen to you, than i must never lose my vigilence.


God Speed,

S


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 15, 2012 5:24 pm 
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Scorpiotl said, "But I am know now that if this can happen to you, than i must never lose my vigilence. "

This is exactly why I post about my slips.

I'm doing fine, thanks for asking Scorp....actually, I'm hungry and I'm going to get me some PIZZA!!!!

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 15, 2012 6:05 pm 
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I think it's GREAT,, HEROIC, that you are WILLING to be this open about it, about the slips and
how you have grown in your recovery.......

sometimes I wonder,when I hear people say that they have however many YEARS of sobriety,,,,
if they've EVER taken a "lil extra" cough syrup when they are sick, or
had a hit of a joint going-round at thier friends' wedding, or WHATEVER,,

you know what Im saying.......

the 'suboxone-haters' or at least the ones that believe maintenance is JUST an exuse to be "high" all the time,
I wonder if they are mad/jealous of the TOTAL ABSTINENCE approach...........
total abstinence is GREAT by the way,
I'd love to be IN That boat ONE DAY,, I seriously would,
I just know right now, is not the time......

well NOW I forgot what the hell my point was............

I just want to say THANKS Romeo for being an OPEN BOOK on this subject,,

it shows ALL OF US we need to put MORE into our recovery,,,
all the time,,,

there's no holidays or vacations from being an addict :wink:

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 16, 2012 1:55 am 
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HALTS are one of the few gems I took from NA. In my groups they added S for "Serious" to the end, which I thought was a bit of a joke.


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 22, 2012 12:15 pm 
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funny thing is i lost my vigilence last night. I guess everybody has a plan until they have some time to themselves...i got a text from an old "friend" that that text yesterday sent me running and thinking and plotting and gave me an excuse to take .2mg of sub last night. i didnt come here like i should have or try to think it thru....i didnt HALT.....I thought about it for 2 hrs and than i just did it. i romatnticized it now i have to start over at least my tolerance to sub has gone way down i made it almost 60 hrs this time.


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