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 Post subject: Sleep toooooo much! Help
PostPosted: Sun Jun 14, 2009 10:59 am 
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Before suboxone I slept 6-7 hours every night. Some nights I would stay up late and then sleep in but who doesn't have the occasional sleep problem. The problem is that the last 6 months on suboxone it seems like I never get out of bed. Some times I take nothing, fall asleep around 2-4am and don't wake up until 2pm, other times I take ambien, fall asleep around 11pm-12am, then sleep until 1 or 2pm. What's going on here? If I work early I can get up (drugged from ambien) but if not I could sleep all day and it's ruining my life. I thought about short acting benzos to get me to sleep quick, then let me get up early but my doc looks at me like I'm drug seeking and just writes another ambien RX. I need help on what to do. And I need some way to convince my doc that I'm a painkiller addict, not a benzo addict, and I need the benzos for sleep.

-JayJay


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 14, 2009 11:20 am 
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Why the hell are you taking ambien if your problem is that you sleep too much?

If there's an underlying condition causing your irregular sleep patterns I wouldn't know, since I'm not a doctor, but the following is true if you're just a lazy bum:

What you should be doing is to try and regularise your sleep patterns. Get up every day at the same time (not later than 8:00 am), even if you're too damn tired to do anything. Get up and don't go back to sleep again. Then at night, only go to sleep when you feel tired, not when it's time to go to sleep. The first few days doing this you'll find that you'll be not be sleeping enough. But since you are getting up at the same time every day, the only thing your body can do is set back by a few hours the time you go to sleep. In time you'll be falling asleep at a more appropriate time than 2:00-4:00 am.

Remember that after a certain point, the more you sleep, the more tired you'll feel and the more you'll want to sleep.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 17, 2009 1:57 am 
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I don't know if you are male of female or what age you are but I do know that it is important to have good sleep habits. You can find the details of just what constitutes good sleep habits anywhere on the Internet.

I also know, from experience, that Ambien really doesn't do well long term. It is short acting and you develop a tolerance to it pretty quickly anyway. The Benzos last much longer but they are dangerous to use with Suboxone, as in you could go to sleep and not wake up, and they are addicting. Do you really want another addiction?

What worked for me was Amitryptiline. I was taking it already as a migraine preventative. My doctor increased my dose and I sleep just fine now.

HOWEVER, when my doctor increased my dose, she increased it to 200 mgs. This dose was MUCH TOO HIGH for me. I spent four days in the ICU because of it. I almost died because of it. Be very, very careful with this.

My dose now is at 150 mgs. and that is a good dose for me.

My point is that there are other answers than Ambien or benzodiazepines. It bears repeating here. Good sleep habits are important.

Another very good idea is to keep a sleep diary. That way you are armed with solid facts when you see your doctor.

Be persistent, be careful, be diligent and it will pay off, you'll see. Good luck to you.

Calliope


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 19, 2009 2:20 am 
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The ambien is because I can't fall asleep, but when I get asleep boy do I stay asleep! I'm a male 26 years old and should sleep a bit more than someone in there 40's or older. I think my problem is I have no reason to stay up once i'm awake. My whole life was drugs..friends, activities, ect. I really had to get rid of EVERYTHING in my life to get sober this time, and out of the dozen or so times I tried to stop this is the only time I've made it more than a couple weeks or so. I'm scared to get new friends ( the last date I went on she swore she didn't use, until we got pulled over and she confessed she had Valium in her purse and was also on probation, floor mats were covered in blue dust for a couple days) and since I work ALL the time to keep up with treatment cost I just don't have the desire to get a solo hobby. I'm going to my Doc. Tue, gonna ask him about all this. BTW haven't had ambien in 3 days...and been getting out of work early and straight to bed around 12, seeming to help hopefully get a day shift and back to regular sleep habits, hard when your a chef though.
JayJay


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 Post subject: sleep stuff
PostPosted: Sat Jun 20, 2009 11:11 am 
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jayjay...

i'm a chef too.. and it's grueling and aggravating and thankless... and the hours do absolutely NOTHING when it comes to sleep regularity and normal daytime patterns. its hard to get out of the habit of going to bed at 3 am and waking up 15 minutes before shift. but it must be done.
i agree with (i forget who) about regularizing sleep patterns. forcing yourself up in the morning and dealing with a few days of tiredness while your clock resets is worth it compared to a life of sleep and work alone. i mean... i get it. and i've done it. and it's worth it.

as for the sleep meds.... i guess i'm a rarity that ive had luck with supplements. L-Tyrosine, Melatonin, and a powdered magnesium supplement called "CALM" (also helps the constipation TREMENDOUSLY) all go down the hatch between 8-10 pm and i hit the hay.

i also know that early on the suboxone treatment my sleep was all wonky and i tried convincing myself i needed some prescription aids. but i was told to let it unfold, try some natural ideas and get through it instead of becoming dependant and yet another chemical. and it worked!

best of luck
jp


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 20, 2009 5:11 pm 
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Most likely your not active enough during the day, so going to sleep is going to be hard....then put Ambien on top of boredom and your going to sleep so much that a viscous cycle starts.

I know it's hard and at first you think you will never enjoy life again....but you have to get out and just DO THINGS until you start to enjoy them again. Even if it seems like the last thing in the world you want to do you have to DO IT.

Try stopping the Ambien and getting out of the house and exercising etc (make yourself BUSY BUSY BUSY) and eventually your body will get its natural pre-addiction sleep rytham back. It may be hard to fall asleep for a while, but tough it out if you can. If you think your sleepy on Ambien, I promise you that you will be sloppy on any short acting benzo.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 20, 2009 5:19 pm 
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PS---

You could also go the other way if you really believe you have to medicate this problem: some docs prescribe provigil for sleepiness...but then that gets into the whole cycle of "medicate" to sleep and "medicate" to wake and on and on....not a particularly fun daily cycle if your trying to remove drug compulsions from your life?????

please try to remember one thing....and I remind people on methadone this ALL the time......Suboxone MAY be your golden ticket to a happy obsession free life.....do you really want to ruin that "last hope" by using benzo's and having your addiction triggered all over again? Then even the medication that could have saved you is no longer safe to take. You could be lucky and just use the benzo's as needed....or you could muck up your last ditch effort at getting well.

My treatment means too much to me to risk it becoming part of the problem by adding benzo's to the mix.
If you truly believe your life will be better with them though, its your body and you know it much better than I do.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 20, 2009 8:15 pm 
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For me the biggest thing that helped with both getting back into a healthy sleep cycle and having energy during the day was exercise. I wasn't a big fan or jogging before but I went really, really, hella slow and very gradually worked my way up to 4 miles 5x a week. The way I've found that works the best is going really slow, it's done wonders for my self esteem and how I feel overall. It's had alot bigger of an impact than I thought it could. Whatever route you choose hang in there man and I hope you find a solution.

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 20, 2009 10:05 pm 
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I can walk faster than I jog. LoL.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 23, 2009 1:20 pm 
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I had the same sleeping issue when I was taking 16mgs/day of the Suboxone, and even when I was taking 8. I have now tapered down to 4mgs and it's a huge improvement. I sleep about 8-10 hrs/day depending on whether or not I have class in the morning, but I think your issue is related to the Ambien. Sleeping pills are so strong, especially with Suboxone which, more often than not, makes people very tired. I was JUST taking the Suboxone and I couldn't get out of bed. I suggest either tapering down on the Subox (but it's really difficult-or at least it was for me) or getting off the Ambien, which I recommend. I don't know why you are taking both! That seems strange to me but of course I don't know the entire story. Good luck!


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 23, 2009 1:45 pm 
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I agree that exercise is a great panacea for sleep and mood disturbance. It might take a few days to work and usually exercising is the last thing one feels like doing when having trouble with sleep or mood, but if you force yourself to do it anyways you will generally be glad that you did.

I'd be careful about getting in the habit of using chemicals to regulate your sleep. That should be a last option, in my opinion.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 23, 2009 2:49 pm 
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hey thanks everybody for the input...just got done talking to the doctor...we both agreed on no benzo. He was willing to give them to me but the last 3 or 4 days have been good. Ive been taking excedrin pm for sleep instead of ambien (still wake up in middle of night, but i don't eat things and not remember doing it) also I asked work to change my schedule around for the time being so that I get home around 9 or 10 rather than 12 or 1. Ive been getting up and walking around in the park with the dog and with that and work i'm tired when I get home. Still have ambien IF i need it. But for the time being I feel a lot better and KNOW it's because i'm sleeping well. Thanks again for all the advicce.
JayJay P.


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 Post subject: Sleep Help
PostPosted: Wed Jun 24, 2009 12:55 pm 
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Try one of these non medical suggestions to see if it helps:
Lower your caffeine intake, take a multi vitamin with extra B12, and drink plenty of water. Most people do not realize that while using opiates the body gets depleted of natural nutrients, vitamins, and minerals.

Physical activity always helps, again keep hydrated!

Take your Suboxone when you wake up. Stay away from benzo's period! You could accidentally never wake up mixing Sub. and benzos.

If you have trouble sleeping, try earplugs.It helped me a great deal.Although I am groggy when I wake up,once I shower all is well and I am ready to go.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 24, 2009 1:53 pm 
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ya benzos and suboxone are a scary mix..plus I never liked them anyway. My biggest prob. is that I don't know what regular sleep is...I started using when I was 15 I'm 26 now. I've ALWAYS regulated my sleep with pills....oxy to sleep oxy to wake up...weed to calm down from oxy..work work work...oxy oxy oxy...this has been a tough road but my sobriety tool is the fact that I'm coming up on a year soon here...and IF i were to use that resets the clock to 0. I've found that ambien just knocks me out...not lets me get to sleep..big difference. and I build a tolerance to it quick , not a cycle I want to get into. The midnight cravings are a lot to handle though, the big reason why I choose ambien over another suboxone, I'd like to keep it to just one dose a day..not 2 like the doctor discussed. I'm just happy to be clean..when sleep habits are my biggest headache it's a huge improvement over my life before sobriety!


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 24, 2009 2:01 pm 
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does anyone have experience with flexeril or zanaflex or other muscle relaxers and suboxone? I have some from my kidney stone, and I know they make me sleepy, and the half life is only 2 hours for the zanaflex. They also are helping with my tension headaches I all so often get at night after work. Any dangers, my doc approved them, but I still worry about any CNS depressant + suboxone. As A side note I came up positive for benzos on my test yesterday..but I haven't taken any for a long long time...doc says it the flexeril, anyone know anything else that could make me show a false positive, herbs, homeopathic , ect.

JayJay P.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 24, 2009 11:42 pm 
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I take zanaflex (tizanidine) for my migraine headaches. It basically cured my headaches. I had chronic migraine for years, years I tell you and I was basically screwed because none of the migraine drugs worked for me. They either gave me unbearable side effects or rebound headaches.

Finally I got a new doctor who sent me to a neurologist. She prescribed the zanaflex for every day and a triptan for when I get a migraine. Within a week I was like a new person. Amazing.

That stuff is strong though. I only take half the pill, and that works fine. It also made me stop grinding my teeth at night.

So I take both that AND a benzo on occasion and have never had problems with the Suboxone. When I was in the Probuphine study they had to go over all my medications and they ok'd me even with the clonazepam. The study doc said they really only worry about high doses or IV use of benzos with Suboxone. With my benzo use I always try to do something else to alleviate my anxiety before I take the medication. I probably only take it once or twice a month, and only .5 mg at a time. Benzos are gross if you take them too much. They just make you feel more and more anxious when you miss a dose. No thanks!

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 25, 2009 1:50 am 
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Diary,

Have you ever tried Atarax? Its an antihistamine, and it works pretty well for a short time (its also a narcotic potentiator).. Also Clonidine can sometimes help with anxiety and thats relatively 'safe'.

I occasionally use benzos. I'm crazy careful with them. I don't want a benzo dependency thats for sure! They are useful occasionally though and safe that way.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 25, 2009 1:54 pm 
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yah sometimes I only take 1/4 of the zanaflex...they knock out the headache but they knock me out too. I keep hearing about clonidine...it's a blood pressure med right? i'm only 26 and i'm not sure if I want to go that route. I hear of a naltrexone implant that you can get after subs...thinking about that for after I get off subs. Trying to cut down to 16mg third day down 1 pill...feel ok not great but better than I thought. Sleep has been great w/out ambien. Don't know if i'm gonna take that ever again.
JayJay P.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 25, 2009 10:14 pm 
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Atarax is hydroxyzine right? My husband had that to stop the itching from all the morphine he was on after his ankle surgery. My doctor said I could have it for withdrawals but I haven't needed it. I'm not taking anything for withdrawals right now, so that's good.

I take the clonazepam so rarely now. Maximum I probably take 1mg a month, but I don't even take it every month. I've had a bottle of 30 1mg pills for over 18months now. Some people must enjoy benzos a lot more than I do. I can't see getting addicted to them or even using them recreationally.

But some people say that about opiates. Just the other day someone told me they had Vicodin for post-operative pain but they hated the way it made them feel (groggy, sleepy) so they flushed it. :shock: I wonder if there's something different about our body chemistry, because opiates gave me energy and made me feel wonderful. Very strange.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 25, 2009 11:06 pm 
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Only thing benzos ever did for me was make me...go to...zzzzzz
Only time I saw any value in them was when I was in full withdrawal and ready to crawl out of my skin. Some will say a drug addict is a drug addict but I've really started to see some differences amongst addicts who use/used different substances. I dunno just my own humble little observations :)

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