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PostPosted: Sun Jan 05, 2014 5:30 pm 
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C1234 can you provide us with the sources of your statement? Based on what facts are you claiming your statements to be true? What research or studies have shown "counciling doesn't make it [stopping addiction] easier". What is your source for proving that "thousands do it" where are these thousands? If what you are saying is true, surely you can find some evidence to prove your point. What is it?

The sad fact is if your claims were indeed true, we would not have the epidemic of opiate addiction we currently have in America. If all it took was commitment we would not have millions of addicts. They certainly are committed when they try to stop. Commitment is not the problem. You cannot commit or will your way out of addiction anymore than you can out of depression. What you are saying is like telling a clinically depressed person to just get out of bed, get going and be committed to not being depressed. If this were true we would not need suboxone.

I am very willing to consider any supporting evidence you can present. Otherwise, I would submit those statements simply are not true and cannot be backed up. Counciling actually will improve the chance at success. Most everyone, let alone thousands, cannot do it on their own. And just not taking any more drugs... If only it were that simple.

Don


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 05, 2014 8:11 pm 
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Thanks to all that believe in me. I used 3mgs this am. Had a decent day. Trained hard. Lots of food and water. Used some phenibut powder to relax but it didn't work. I have some stonach issues right now so I took about 1/2mg. I am determind. Very determined. I start work tomorrow. I have all my meals made vitamins water and l glutamine. I'm using 15 mgs adderral as prescribed in the morning only. Not using the rest of my dose. Using one valium around 12 and the others as needed. My tolerance to valiums goes back well over ten years so I am not concerned at all about respiratory problems. I have been on track and still hitting my goal weights at the gym as I have my sites set on a may show. The dedication it takes to compete on stageis several months long and will power like no other that is why I know with some guidance I can do this. I am just wondering if I should up my subs just a tad ti stop running to the bathroom or deal with it. Todays total was 3 5 mgs. Yesterday was 4ish. Day before was 5ish. Tomorrows goal is 2. But if people are saying dont dose twice what do i do if I start with 2 then have to run to the bathroom at work


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 05, 2014 8:25 pm 
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I just read some of the nasty comments being posted. I thought we were here to help each other. I think you are jumping to conclusions about me and lumping all types of people together. I have always been fully functioning. I didn't say I was crushing oxys and doing lines off of my dogs back. I said I was hooked on lortabs and choose to stop. Making general statements that I can't do it without counsling is about the same as saying a smoker needs counsling. I said I had a problem with lortabs but never abused my valium or adderral. A full blown addict would use it all and all of it. I'm not an u educated person and do believe that my will power is enough to kick this with just enough Information. I dont think its right to jump on anyone for tbeir beliefs. There are some people that canbeat the odds and for someone to believe in me isn't worth asking for statistics. I'm sure statistics will say whatever you want them to. But in the end I'm still going strong and I will prove any doubter wrong. The most important thing I said was that I decided this for my new year. I decided. I am in charge. Thank you again for supporting me and also for fueling my push to prove otgerothers wrong. In the end we should all support each other not call eaxh other out. Support, BELIEVE


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 05, 2014 8:53 pm 
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i dont think anyone was calling you out man, i know i sure wasnt...its very easy for people, especially addicts to just use the info they WANT to and be misled..i cant change your mind but believe me, suggestions that you consider counselling are NOT degrading and are suggestions that WILL help you. you say you are not an addict but anyone who ABUSES suboxone (yes using subs without a script and taking different dosess each day is abusing it) is definately portraying addict behavior. like i said i cant change your mind i can only hope you take some of the sound advice here. again i wish you the best and you can come here for support but i hope you dont come here and expect everyone to just agree with your actions and support them IF we know its something they may be harmful to you. anything i tell you i am telling you to BENEFIT you, not bring you down...i speak from a heavy history of addiction with experience in good and BAD methods of recovery (not bragging by any means just stating this since you said yourself you are not a full blown addict)

i wish you good luck, God bless

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 05, 2014 9:20 pm 
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You may be right that your will power is all you need along with helpful advice. I share a similarity with you in that I abused oxycodone, but I never abused the xanax I was prescribed. However, I would never say that I'm not a full blown addict because I didn't abuse xanax. To me that would be hubris.

Many of the addicts here have been through many cycles of abusing drugs, being in recovery, abusing worse drugs, being in recovery, relapsing on heroin, etc. They have learned through long experience that if they don't deal with the reasons that led them to abuse drugs in the first place, often through therapy or other outpatient work, they are doomed to repeat the same destructive patterns. That is why you're receiving some of the advice you are. Not because anyone doubts that you have willpower in spades.

I do believe that addiction occurs on a continuum. You may be one of the lucky few whose addiction doesn't progress past your quick brush with it. You need to know, however, that for most people addiction is a chronic, progressive brain disorder that is characterized by relapse. Therefore, for most people willpower is not enough. Or if willpower is enough to get them through their first stint of addiction, it won't be enough eventually as the disorder progresses. This is particularly true for people who gain no insight into why they were vulnerable to addiction in the first place.

Please don't mistake the warnings for people not wishing you well or believing in you. Their wisdom has been earned under awful circumstances that they would not wish upon you.

Amy

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 06, 2014 7:17 am 
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I posted several other replys but I don't see them. Basically I'm slightly saddened that I've been labeled a full blown addict in every sense of the word. I stated that I choose to stop lortabs on my own and that I have never taken all of my other meds in excess only as prescribed or less. I never crushed pills or anything over the top. I was prescribed pain pills and over the years as my tolerance went up so did my script. I aslo get pee tested every month for my scrips. I find that lumping everyone together into one pile upsetting. Yes I am hooked on pain pills, but to say that everyone needs therapy is rhe same as a doc saying everyone needs 16mgs. I am a teacher and pretty smart. I've built everything myself to follow up on the buding comment and no I couldnt build a whole house which was a terrible analogy because no once could a GC subs out each part. Foundation, framing, electric, so on. So yes I could easily sub out all aspects to building a house. Why how? I have enough background knowledge to know where to start. That's why I came here.
When someone had faith in me I was grateful but for others to assume that I am rock bottom means that you didn't read about me a d take me for me.
I'm still going strong. I have stomach issues but that's it so far. Today is 2.5 mgs.
By the way does everyone that wants ti quit smoking need a full blown Intervention.I'm grateful for the support but please pay attention to the details. Iuse 1.5 of my 3 adderral a day and the valium as needed. I have adhd and the valium went back far further to keep muscles relaxed from clamping on nerves. I use them as needed. And I'm not abusing subs I'm using lowest possible dose to survive. And going lower. I undersrand we are all here but we are in different places and have different wills. Making general statements iisn't helpful. And I didn't join a board to be more or less scolded or talked diwn to. I needed guidance from people that have experience using.
I'm disappointed to read people arguing over things instead of helping.
I will keep u posted. I am determined.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 06, 2014 1:19 pm 
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Recovery is a process. Different for some. If this is your path then i hope you do well. Im not going to go into what addiction is or what recovery means. However tbis forum is a recovery place and much help is here. Read what our good Dr J has to say about addiction. The talk zone is a great place to learn and find the answers you are looking for. Defining addiction maybe be the ? here on this tbread. So it seems.
Anyway good luck Give and we are here if needed...razor..


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 06, 2014 3:01 pm 
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It's like you didn't even read my post. There are reasons you are receiving such warnings and it's not because we don't want to see you succeed.

Amy

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 06, 2014 3:35 pm 
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Geezus Don! Whats all the carry on about i should provide evidence to back up mu claims. I have done it without NA, counselling and all the rest. I am proud of myself.

If you calmed down for a second you would realise i said it can be done on your own. I didnt say counselling would not be good etc.
"provide US with evidence", wtf? Are we in court or trying to offer real advice/ opinions to other people in our exact situation. I understand we all think we are either Lawyers or Drs and try to sound like them.

I also know plenty of real people who have done the same. Been clean for years and years. Real evidence in front of my eyes.
Im so sick of people up on their high horse preaching like cult members that their way is the only way.
I accept that to get help is always best but it can be done on your own.
Go for it Giveit.
Also, Amy is cool. She has good advice.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 06, 2014 3:57 pm 
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i do see your point c1234, however giveitmyall has gone from having a problem with lortabs to abusing suboxone. he/she's not doing him/herself a favor here. his/her best option right now would be to get into some counselling before they dig themself deeper. but it seems as tho they feel that counselling means that they are a full blown addict and they cant be labeled that because that is a horrible thing to be.

its NOT...if you go to counselling it will be totally confidential and a very brave thing to do. no one here is putting negative labels on you, but most people who had a problem with pain pills and then try to use suboxone on their own, usually end up worse off then they were...im NOT saying it cant be done, but do you really want to take that chance and then end up regretting it?

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 06, 2014 5:04 pm 
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Well I'm sorry that I caused such a fuss and buzz. I haven't said much about myself but I have a m.a. in psychology. B.a. in education. M.a. in supervision/evaluation and a ton of study in ttraining. I am still going strong and just pulled into the gym. My life is still amess but I know that its not my total doing and I have faith in that. My wife needs to recognize that there are two of us and each holds a place. I am at 2mgs today. I had a full day at work. Slept well. Ate well. Drank a gallon of water. Tomorrow I'm deciding if I should continue this taper or stay at 2. My only problem is toliet so far. I'm going to buy I'immodium after I train. Still feel good. Thanks to all.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 06, 2014 6:40 pm 
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I know I am not out of the woods and won't be for a long time. I know how chemicals distort the receptors in the brain and your thinking. I'm not ignorant to any of that. I do have things in my favor like being prescribed growth hormone and testosterone for replacement. I have been reading about how both combat depression and help rebuild cells of all types. I trained hard. Hard for me is pressing 90lb dumbells and using 75 lbs for flys. Thats not off from my norm. I want to do this quickly so I don't get stuck on subs or draw it out too long. Remember I decided to quit. I still have 120 lortabs. I gave them to my parents. I do need help dosing and I know that no doc would understand why and how I want to do this. My goal is to keep dropping as long as I can work and train. So should I stay at 2 mgs since I was a sliver past 2 today maybe 2.3 or should I drop to 1.5. I'd love to be at under 1 by this weekend then by next weekend kick it suffer a but fri sat sun and hopefully be coming back monday better.
Saw a friend at the gym who said I looked better than ever and explained what's going on. He couldn't believe it. It took him years to drop to where I am.
I know I could relapse, but you need to know me. I am a stubborn bull. I put mybody thriugh hell for a show. Youd have to know what that mmeans to see the decipline. I have no reason to go back to pills. I didn't have to stop. I did. I'm going to do this. Please help me with a schedule. Please. I'm at about 2mgs. I feel good. Some stomach issues. I just took a valium. Which I must or risk seizure. So no lectures please. How can I keep dropping? Please dose me out to be done and walk away. Thank you.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 06, 2014 7:07 pm 
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C1234 I'm not putting words in your mouth. I am simply responding to your statements word for word exactly as you wrote them.

[b]"Thousands do it."[/b]

Those are your exact words. Now you are saying you did it and you know a few others. That's a huge, huge, huge difference. There is a reason - because thousands DON'T do it on their own.

I don't know your individual circumstance. If you indeed have placed your addiction in remission on your own - that's great. More power to you. I think that's awesome. I honestly, really and truly do! I'm not at all criticizing that. By the same token, you, one single individual doing something, can't be equated to 1,000s doing the same thing. You are guessing at that - it's your FEELING. The FACTS are most people need additional help and support. the FACTs are as many as 90% relapse in the first year.

You and everyone else here are very much entitled to your own feelings. You are not entitled to your own facts. What you are quoting is called antidotal evidence. It is not science and is not fact. My real concern here is you giving other readers here wrong and potentially dangerous information. You are enabling others to believe they too can do what you did. You may have beat the odds - most will not. Most, even in the best treatment will still relapse. It's off the charts bad odds that someone in full blown addiction will stop on their own. This is nearly impossible because if it were not, they would not be in this position and addicted in the first place.

Give It. I already know I'm not going to convince you of what you already don't believe. This is no different than telling the four year old that the stove is hot. You tell him and tell him and tell him but it is only until he touches that stove that he finally gets it. We don't know what we don't know. By your own admission you are new to addiction. Yet you don't want to listen to those who have vastly more personal experience than you do. Again, I don't at all think I'll convince you otherwise and will not try. My concern is to not erode the recovery of others and let other readers here think they too can do what you are doing and see success. You actually may see success - just as you may actually win a multi-million dollar lottery. It could happen. People do it. Yet the odds are really, really, really against it. Honestly the odds are nearly the same.

What I will suggest to you Give it since you seem to love to read and learn, read Dr. Junig's story and posts here. You are exhibiting much of the same behavior that he did early on in his illness. Please read his story. If you do you will see that he too swore he was not an addict like the others. He too swore that he didn't need the same type of treatment that others did. He was special - just like you are special. He was very smart, way too smart to not be able to figure out how to do this on his own. Sound familiar? This is often a trait of addicts. We all think we are special, we are different, we don't have the same rules as everyone else. Others may need counseling and rehab, but not us. Oh no, not us. We are the special ones. Our abilities are way beyond the typical person. If we can only get past the withdrawal, we'll be golden - all will be great. Thus the long standing phrase that getting clean is actually the easy part - staying clean is the hard part. Never is there a more true statement. All of the struggles you are going through and have gone through - including not even being able to start the Sub on New Years and choosing to use at least for another day - take all of those struggles and multiply them times ten. That's what staying clean will be. It's also very common and actually the first battle for someone to at first admit they are an addict. That's often half the battle. So many have all of these reasons why they are not an addict. They refuse to even consider it and therefore how could they treat something they don't even acknowledge they have.

We are not jumping on you. We are not trying to tear you down. The thing is, we are not going to tell you what you want to hear. We are going to tell you the truth as we understand it and have lived it. I have been in remission, on Suboxone, for over four years. I'm currently on a long, long slow taper for an attempt to stop Sub. My way is not the only way. There are multiple good ways to treat addiction just like there are multiple good ways to treat heart disease, asthma, diabetes or any other sort of true illness. Unfortunately rarely do they include getting that treatment from the Internet and doing it yourself. I've seen dozens of stories like yours in the past and they always end one of two ways, either in relapse or in never returning back here to tell us what really happened. It's very hard to believe they saw success and didn't want to tell us about it.

I hope with all of my might that you are successful. I hope you will continue to post here and report back to us. If you continue to keep coming back here and will be 100% honest with us - like you have been - I'm pretty sure you'll eventually start to see what we've been talking about. Let's try it your way. Give it a shot. If it doesn't work, then perhaps you'll try it our way.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 07, 2014 7:37 am 
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Don although I appreciate your concern can we agree to disagree. I believe that you are taking things to an extteme. Do you believe that smokers that want to quit need full blown help? You do know how hard it is to quit smoking right? Ok well that's how I view this. I came here for some advice. I got some good advice and I will use it. To continue to beat me into submission that counsling is the only way does sound like you have your own issues. You do understand that there are millions of people in the world many of whom simply don't post anything they just do it. Statistics are always flawed. You can find stats to prove any theory if you look hard enough. You can find stats that jesus is alive a d well In texas or that elvis is alive if you look hard enough. I respect what YOU are going through but that doesnt mean everyone. Can you please look up some stats at how many body builderS become nationally ranked. I think u will find very few. We have to go through a lot. Well I am. Just please accept that some will beat your odds and help with the questios you made ur point.
I didn't read that to ask for sub help u had to go to counsling. If that is the case ill leave tbe forum.
Read about the routine for training for a show. Do u think u could do it. Wake up at five a d do 2.5 hours of cacardio then eat the most disgusting foods a d dri k up to three gallons of water..
Well I can. Plus work. And live.
The question I had was should I keep droppong if so how much. I didn't su. Today cause no one helped. I need to know a drop scheduke based on what I've posted.
I feel great. Up at five am. Coffee done getting ready to eat. Need help dropping. I told u I have a m.a. in psy. Thesis in abnormal psy. I probably have read far more research and understand stats better than u. Most are subjective and flawed. I got it. You believe in counsiling etc. I simply need some simple step down advice. If you want tohelp great. If u want to sit back and pray u can say I told u so fine.
If you want me to leave fine.
Could you either help me with what I asked or let someone else without jumping all over them.
I decided I'm going with about 1.75 mgs today. Its a shame you'd rather spend your time with your beliefs but that's your choice.
Say the word and ill stop posting.
In the mean time. I feel good. Slept well. Had a little phenibut yesterday at the end of the day. Used about 2.2mgs in one dose. 1.5 adderral in am and 2 valium starting after 3pm.
Today 1.5. Two cups of coffee. Vitamins. Water. Gym. Etc. Will see how I hold up.
Thanks


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 07, 2014 8:15 am 
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Hello!

You seem to really want this bad enough and that is exactly what it takes to have any kind of success. I will give you my own personal opinion of what I myself would do as far as taper if I were where you are right now. And I was there at 2mg almost 5 months ago. I was at a high dose of 24mg and was on the sub for about 3 years total time.

In my opinion for optimal results you should reduce gradually, controlled, and steady. Stay at the same dose for about 4-7 days and then reduce and repeat. What I myself did was reduce by .25mg each time. I went from 2mg to 1.75mg, to 1.50mg, to 1.25mg and so on. I also believe the lower you can get the dose the least amount of withdrawal symptoms will be present. This is not always the case and can depend on many factors, but for most people it's best to reduce as low as possible. Tapering to a dose of .25mg or so and then jumping should work very well for you.

I think if you forgot about how long it will take to get done, and forget the "time constraints" of getting finished on a certain day would work in your favor. It takes as long as it takes in other words. Takes some stress off of not getting done on "time".

I would also suggest you take the same amount of sub at the same time each day to keep a steady amount in your system. If you can dose once per day it might be best for you also. Take your dose in the morning and forget about it until the next day!

That's my suggestion anyway and of course you can do as you please. Some take longer/less time between dose reductions, and some reduce by smaller amounts too. No one way is better than another....It's whatever works best for YOU that matters in the end.

Give that some thought and maybe others will have other suggestions of a taper. That's the way I did it and I now feel awesome! Congrats on your body-building success. Good luck to you and best wishes on the training for your upcoming show.

Karen xoxo


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 07, 2014 9:35 am 
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I've been reading this thread since it began and have been reluctant to chime in, but oh well, here goes my 2 cents anyway.

Give, you sound like you are a strong willed guy, and that's important in a fight like this one man! I'm on my phone and at work soooooo can't type out alot here, but I was doing some reading last night at Dr. junig's suboxone talk zone website, and cams across a blog that really reminded me of your thread, and summed up must of what I'd have said had I chimed in earlier man. The name of the post I'm referring to at talk zone is called, The Stages of Addiction, and it was chock full if info that is relevant to your situation. I'm a new poster here, but far from new to this wretched disease, so didn't know how to provide a link straight to the article. Perhaps another member could help out and do that or me and tell me how to do so.

It doesn't matter how you get there, just read it, k. :-)
I'm pulling for you, as is everyone else, really Give, I know your a tough guy! You'll make it! But all these experienced members aren't picking on ya, they really do care. You have a great day! I gotta get back to work, after reading that blog at talk zone, let me know if you identified or related to any of it. I know when I read it, it was so spot on that I got chills.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 07, 2014 1:34 pm 
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Hi Giveit.
Karens advice is spot on re taper. I have no experience with short tapers so no idea if they work. If you are handling the quick drops then fantastic and go with it. Otherwise if you start to struggle do what karen said. This is what i basically did as well. Only real diff was i jumped at approx 0.5 at the end.
Let your body be the gauge. Dont be too hard on yourself.
C.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 08, 2014 6:28 am 
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Well I'm back. Woke up solid at 430. That's the hormone replacement kicking in. Growth hormone gives you solid sleep and stamina. Yesterday was great. Trained. Battled my demons about my marriage and choices. Came home to hell. Played with my daughter who now says go away, which brought tears to me eyes but she learns from her mom.
Anyway about me. I am going to one mg today. Stomach is better. Meals are six a day including shakes. 2 gallons of water 2 valiums. 1.5 adderall in morning for ADHD.
I am moving forward despite the worst possible circumstances.
I'm disappointed that no one has thrown me a quick taper that could help me the rest of the way but I will post until I'm told to stop.
I've learned a lot.
After ten years of being prescribed pills for every problem in the book and building a huge tolerance I choose none over them.
No one ever asked me why I took them.
I graduated weighing 120 pounds at 18. I was always picked on so took up lifting weights.
I soon grew. But tore my rotator cuff. Then another tear. Pills started coming. Then broke my forearm in five places causing me not to have full movement. Then I stepped on black ice took a bad fall at work. Boom lower lumbar problems another shoulder tear 75 percent off the bone partial thickness tear. Workmans comp pain management. Had to stay in pain management so when I retire I can sue for permanent damages.
That led me down the path. More injuries more pills. But I would not quit the gym. I'm 198 now of solid muscle 5 percent body fat. I'm in pain all the time. Oh I forgot when I fell I crushed c6 c7 and can't feel three fingers. That also cuts off blood flow to shoulders.
Anyway that caused me to increase doses. Up and up I went. Then I realized these pills are my edge. I can do more. I can even block out my miserable marriage.
So I was between six to 20 lortabs a day and always active not a day on the couch.
Then I decided no more. New Year's Eve I said I would stop but I didn't get feedback fast enough and I was in a bad place. The next day I started. Five MSG of subs. Then less the next. Less the next, so on.
I didn't stay at the same dose twice.
So far I got all traces of the pills out of me. I've had my cravings but I'm busy and they don't last.
Today I will do one mg and i will survive. I will. Period. Tomorrow I will sliver a piece off of one mg.
I plan on never taking the same does twice. I was never in this long term. I wanted to use sub to break the hold of pills and have the pills out of my system. I did that. Now I'm breaking the subs out.
I'm sorry to disappoint don, but just like people quit smoking, people quit pills. There are millions billions of people in the world. Your stats are based on the ones that came out and said they had a problem. People sometimes just do it. My best friend is an er doc. He never asked anyone he beat it. My tattoo guy same thing. My former student from 19 years ago I see at the gym same thing. Stats are messed up and you can find proof for both sides. So don't lump everyone together. It's just not right. I asked you to google show prep for body building an example diet and training. If you did you would truly see self control.
I will keep asking for advice now that I'm at one mg how do I keep going then once I'm off how do I deal with the wd from subs even though it will be short.
Then I will post my non sub days until I feel I'm done. Then I'll come back if I can and help others.
It can be done by certain people. I am one. I've never said something i didn't mean that's who I am.
Thanks again and again.
The help helped the push for everything else helped too.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 08, 2014 9:15 am 
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Hi Give it

I beg to differ about the support you are getting. Where you state "'m disappointed that no one has thrown me a quick taper that could help me the rest of the way but I will post until I'm told to stop." Brown eyed girl gave you a taper schedule. Maybe you didn't see it or maybe you want a quicker detox. I have been reading your thread from day one. I also got addicted due to real & chronic pain. Have you a plan on how to manage your pain when you are off all opiates? We are different in that you could take 6 pills or 20 pills a day. Once i increased i had to stay there or i went into w/d's.

I wish you well. Some people can do what you are doing & walk away just fine. I hope you keep posting.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 08, 2014 9:03 pm 
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Joined: Wed Jan 01, 2014 6:29 am
Posts: 15
Yes I need a quicker detox. I feel great today. Another day done.


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Fond Du Lac Psychiatry
Dr. Jeffrey Junig, M.D., Ph.D.

  • Board Certified Psychiatrist
  • Asst Clinical Professor, Medical College of Wisconsin

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