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PostPosted: Mon Sep 14, 2015 2:39 pm 
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My brother in law has been living with my wife and I for over 6 months now. We didn't know he had a current drug problem when we allowed him to move in. We mightn't never known if he hadn't stolen almost two bottles full of oxy from us while we were away one weekend. (We both recently had surgeries and didn't use much of the prescribed meds. My wife's was for breast cancer so he stole his sister's painkillers from her breast cancer surgery to show you how bad off he is)

After this, he assured us this was a slip and he'd been on suboxone for 6 months and the pills didn't do anything to him, eventhough he swallowed the whole bottle. I'm not real sure how that doesn't kill someone but nevertheless.

He's been "clean" ever since, which was probably 4 months ago so if my math is correct, that puts him at about 10 months on suboxone with one slip if everything he's told me is true which is a long shot. I'm reading varying opinions on how long one should be on them, but that's not my question. My question is what are the typical signs one would exhibit while on suboxone for this length of time, vs those if that person were still on the other drugs. Here are some things he displays:

-He lied about having a job because we gave him a deadline to get a job or get out. He pretended to have a job for a month that we later found out did not exist and now has a job delivering pizzas (which i'm pretty sure is legit). This allows him to be gone during the only times we are home and awake so he doesn't have to answer questions.
-He also lies about seemingly meaningless things in great detail and tells wild stories.
-He seems confused all the time, but granted he was never the sharpest knife in the drawer.
-He loses his mind when we question the validity of his job or his wild stories
-While we were on vacation, he is aggressively texting me about the wifi not working at my house, eventho he's living at our house rent free. He suggested I did something to block him from using it.
-He gets seemingly really stressed out at the smallest of tasks.
-The one thing he does to help out around the house is to mow the yard and can only do parts of it at a time and I have to continually ask him to do it.

We have given him an expiration date on living with us, that expires in about 4 weeks. I think he's still on drugs, but he's whole family, including my wife thinks he's doing better. I gave him a drug test one time that he passed, but he did have a day or two notice so he could've gotten something to help him pass.

Does this sound like someone that has been on suboxone for nearly a year?


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 14, 2015 4:24 pm 
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Hey Bigdog,
Suboxone isnt a magic substance. An addict has to want to change more than just stopping his use of durg of choise.
If his family sees a positive change in him then something good has happened.
However, I can't sit behined this screen and judge this man.
Sounds like he does have more work to do or even start some kind of recovery plan. Suboxone when taken as directed and with other recovery tools in place Does change a person .

Is he still useing?, We can't really know.
The fact as you have said that you keep catching him in lies isnt a good sign.
Is he getting help in any other way? How does he pay for his treatment? Meetings?, counseling at all?.

I ask these things because we all know here that just taking Buprenorphine, especially in the early stages of treatment more than likely only helps with the physical part of the disease.

So after a year if not much else has happened in his recovery then the same behaviors will arise...

Wish I could tell you more, this is just my opinion. Ive had myself a great turnaround with sub in my tool box of recovery. That was over 4 years ago..

Razor


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 14, 2015 4:44 pm 
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Hey bigdog :)

I agree with razor, ur brother in law does show some warning signs, but without knowing him, he could just be spoiled or lazy lol. I do have a suggestion for u though. Give him another surprise drug test. This time with absolutely no warning. Don't even talk about it prior, just come in one day and spring it on him. And if he obtains his suboxone through a doctor, chances are his Dr drug tested him when he got his script for his sub and he'll always be prepared for that. So find out when he goes and do it about a week after that.

Do u even know for a fact that he takes sub, have u saw him with it or ever take it? How's he paying for it? Also, since suboxone is an opiate blocker, that means he can still take other drugs so a drug test would be ur best bet.

Wish I could help u more but without knowing him, I'd hate to tell ya wrong. Hope u get some peace of mind on this.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 14, 2015 5:04 pm 
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He is obtaining the subs illegally and is attempting to ween himself off of them (his story). He is in debt up to his eye balls, owes back child support of God knows how much and the only job he's had in about a year is delivering pizzas part time. He doesn't have insurance and no money for treatment or counseling of any kind. He claims he goes to meetings, but I feel like he's lying about that.

Best case scenario, Suboxone is the only tool in his tool box and he's trying to make it work on his own. The other option is he's still using.

Our couples therapist (who is a recovering addict clean 25 years) provided us with a list of places in the area that basically help people with no means get clean. My brother in law said none of the places would take him because he "wasn't that bad". I'm thinking he never called a one of them.

I've gave him the 6 week notice a few weeks ago so he has about a month left with us. My wife seems content to just ride it out and wish him farewell in a month. I feel certain he's using this last month to figure out the best way to manipulate us into letting him stay. I've seen glimpses of this before when I threatened to kick him out when he stole the pills. He essentially told us if we kicked him out he was going to OD and kill himself.

Doesn't seem like someone that's on the up and up trying to get better. I'm trying to prepare my wife for the manipulations that I know are coming.

JennJenn, he is definitely both spoiled and lazy and I've considered that the drugs didn't make him this way and that he was a just a terrible human being to start with. I like the idea of a surprise drug test, I may do that, but like I said he's out in a month anyway. He's getting subs illegally for $30 a pop from the same drug dealer he bought oxy from...so he says. I have seen him take the sublingual sub before, but it could be a sweet tart for all i know. It was a condition of him living with us, but like everything else, it falls by the wayside because he's made he schedule where he doesn't see us hardly at all.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 14, 2015 6:38 pm 
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Getting subs off the street illegally is abusing drugs imo. He needs to get in to see a doctor and get them legit if its ever going to help. You said 30 each, that's a lot for someone who's broke! It sounds like your bro in law needs some tough love here. If I were you, which I'm not of course, I wouldn't want him in my home. Its not your responsibility. If he wants to get clean he can even with no means. It sounds like he just doesn't want to do it to me.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 14, 2015 6:40 pm 
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To me getting subs "off the streets" is the same as getting oxys or dope "off the streets".


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 14, 2015 8:52 pm 
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Sorry Bigdog but your going though what many many families go though. Dealing with an Active addict in denial and fear.
He has no way of truely knowing just how to even get real help.
He thinks he can just fix it himself. Plus he has dug such a huge hole for himself he sees no way out. Lies apond lies are just making him worse.
You all either let him really hit bottom or somehow get him inpatient treatment. Sub or no sub.
Does he have other family to take him in? It doesn't sound like it.

I understand fully of your plan to have him out in 4 weeks. Nothing wroug with that at this point. Maybe then he could be willing to make a change.
Off the street subbing is just useing in between. I feel badly for all concerned. I agree with the others ,a surprise UA with a failure could be a push in the right direction to treatment..

Hang in there Bigdog, your in a tuff spot....

Razor....


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 14, 2015 10:17 pm 
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Hi Big Dog, In my experience, I am a social worker who works with people who are working on issues of sub abuse and mental illness, you and your wife need to focus on what is best for you and your family. It is my feeling that people are not bad their behaviors are. If he is not willing to make the changes necessary to live in your home than he needs to leave. I would tell him that if he threatens to do harm to himself or anyone else that you will call the police. You can not be held hostage in your own home. IMO, it sounds like your issue maybe with your wife. Until you are both on the same page about how to deal with him, he will continue to do what he is doing. I am here because I am a suboxone user. I got myself into trouble with pills. I know first hand that until I got honest with myself first and my husband second, things were not going to change. It does sound like he is not being honest with you and your wife. I wish you much luck! Please let us know how it all goes.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 15, 2015 5:06 pm 
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Razor, his parents moved 5 hours away. He was living with them before he moved in with us. Before that his wife left him for obvious reasons. He has transferred his dependence on his parents to us. I've suggested he at least go stay with his parents for a little while, because he doesn't really have anything keeping him here. No real job, no nothing. He sees his kid like every 3 weeks for a day so he could easily make a trip every 3 weeks if that was the hold up. Personally, I think a change of scenery would do wonders for him, but I don't think he knows where to get the drugs easily in that city so he doesn't want to go there. I also think his parents are his biggest enablers which I've talked to them about and I think they are coming around. So no, no other real options for family.

Michelle, after re-reading my posts I see what you're saying about me and my wife not agreeing. It's not so much that we're not on the same page, it is that she's kind of checked out on dealing her brother's crap at this point. She's dealt with chemo and cancer this year and she's just kind of counting the days until his deadline arrives, feeling like she's done her part to help him and wish him well. We don't know anything about this stuff except what he tells us, so the fact that he's on some other drug to help him ween off the other drugs sounded like a good thing to us. She thinks he's on the right track, etc. I on the other hand am more proactive and I think every word out of his mouth is a lie. I don't like being lied to and mooched off of and really don't trust him at all. I don't like him living in my house and I'm just waiting for stuff to start going missing. I think he's smart enough to know that would for sure get him kicked out and he doesn't want to spoil his honey hole prematurely.

My wife and I are on the same page and she's told me she'll support me in whatever decision I make regarding him (ie. If I decide to just kick him out right now, etc). She's just kinda over it.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 15, 2015 10:13 pm 
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Hi Big Dog, I see what you are saying now. Its not that your wife is letting him get away with stuff, she is just not going to deal with it. It will be his moveout day and she will support you in making him move. It is important that he knows that his sister, your wife, is on the same page with you. Addicts are grand manipulators and mark my word, je will do whatever to keep his cozy living situation. This is going to take you and your wife being very strong. I pray it does not create problems for the two of you! Please keep posting and let us know how it goes.


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 16, 2015 2:47 am 
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I was going to not say anything, but then I read what you wrote about him buying suboxone on the streets and weaning himself off. 1st off he would have no problem nor any excuse for not going to see a doctor. They of course will drug screen you and go through all the protocol they have to as doctors, but he can and would be seen. All doctors cannot write suboxone prescriptions however, anyone he would go to would be able to easily give you a referral or simply call around and find a suboxone doctor yourself. So 1. No reason to not see one if he is serious, repeat if he is serious. 2. Fact - Suboxone from the drug store from a legitimate doctor would be a fraction of what he pays on the streets. In Atlanta Suboxone for a single 8mg strip on the street averages about 12.00 to 15.00 bucks. Average in the drugstore is $5.00. For this to work correctly he would need about 8mg a day. So in a month he would pay on the street $360 on the low side probably higher and they are not as common on the street as the pain killers. Not by a long shot. So on the low side he is paying $360 on the street and guaranteed he could get a doctors help and get it for no more than 150.00 a month. there are ways to reduce this price in the drugstore if one wants it. Based off the behavior you stated I would not say he has a very high habit or large habit. If he did you would know. If it was not nailed or chained down, it would be sold. Opiate withdrawals will bring the strongest man to his knees. From my experience being an addiction counselor and an ex-opiate abuser I would say when he stole the ones from you and your wife he probably used some and sold the rest. He could get depending on strength about 10 bucks a pop and many times higher in the larger doses. So he probably sold some and took some. Made some fast money and got high as well. He is dabbling as we call it. Sure he probably has a habit, but I would say not to awfully bad at this point. He at this point could smoke some weed and drink alcohol to tide him over till he got some more opiates. That is if it is only pain pills. Heroin is an opiate and a hell of a lot cheaper than pain pills. A lot of heroin addicts start out with pain pills. Using my numbers above a habit of say 10 hydrocodone 10mg a day would cost you somewhere around 100.00 in that low of quantity. Where as about 40.00 worth of heroin would be more than enough to satisfy the 10 pill a day and at a 60 dollar savings. So he could have stolen the pills and sold all of them. Multiply how many pills by 10 bucks. That would be a fair rate and see what you get. Then figure 40 bucks a day for heroin. Nice profit and he is getting the hard stuff. We can speculate all day. Bottom line is your man is bsing. I would stake my reputation on it. If he is serious and if you really want to help him. Do this. Find a suboxone doctor for him. Do not let him know until you have it arranged. Tell him if he does not go he is out...no if , no ands or buts. Go or out. If he is serious he will go. You may have to help him with a doctors visit and the first meds maybe. Not sure what he makes. Never the less you will be doing him the greatest favor anyone could do for him at this point. He can fool folks all-day, all sorts of ways, but there is no sense or logic to what he says he is doing. It would be completely dumb as hell to buy on the street what you can get legit. If by chance he is on probation or something there is still no excuse. We deal with it all the time. Suboxone is not going to show on the probation drug-screen in most cases. Regardless simply tell the PO if he has one that he is coming clean and getting clean and I would almost guarantee there would be no repercussions. Seen it to many times. However if he is on probation and he will eventually get caught it will be his ass. Sorry for curse words, I do this all day and I take it serious. It is in fact a life and death situation in the long run. If an addict does not get help, in most every case it is either jail, if they are lucky, or death. Get him to a sub doctor. Be his lifesaver and look good in front of the family as well. Nothing can be said when you tried to help. And stick to your guns. No doc your out.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 16, 2015 3:53 pm 
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Thanks Mark Taylor. I believe, sir, you have hit the nail on the head. I agree that it makes no sense to buy something legit from the streets for more than you can get them legit. I will say this, he is not a very bright person, just in general even before his drug problem, so that's why it was even half way believable. Not to mention, I had never heard of any of this stuff before he came into our lives so I didn't really know any better...and I think he counts on that from people.

I will say one other thing. When he first told me about the subs, I started researching them online and offered to buy them for him online (eventhough I wasn't really going to). I just wanted to see what he would say. They were super cheap online, making it a fraction of what he says he was paying on the street. He made up all kinds of excuses about how the stuff online is deadly and you can't trust it and he knows where the stuff he gets comes from, yada, yada, yada. This is probably true but the laundry list of pre-made excuses was evident.

I really wish I would've come to this forum months ago because finding a sub doc and giving him that ultimatum would've been perfect. We are now less than a month from his scheduled departure date. From what he's told us previously, he has about two weeks left tapering off subs before he stops taking them completely and he wanted two more weeks at our house being off them (which is how he came to this scheduled date agreement with my wife).

I'm really at a crossroads here on whether I should do anything at all. My wife and I have some pretty big life changing things going on right now that I won't go into, but honestly, he's kind of off her radar. Her opinion is "I'm sick of trying to figure out if he's lying, he's out in a month and he's just gonna have to figure it out on his own". Hard to argue with that line of thought and I don't really want to stir the pot.


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 16, 2015 11:53 pm 
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Hi Bigdog,
Mark is exactly right!
I myself was not going to say anything but I think I should throw my 2 cents in!
I have some ideas that might help you.
I think something like an intervention could help. If you can talk to his parents and find a Dr. in your area and his parents area too.(Personally, he should go to his parent house)
You could call around to the pharmacies in your area and his parents area. They will gladly tell you all the Dr's that prescribe Suboxone. And make him an appointment with one of the Dr's because he is not going to do it. You could set up the Dr.s appt for him and then give him the drug screen. When he fails it, don't get mad. Just tell him you know he has a problem and you are only trying to help him. I know you don't want to get involved but you are going to have to do it for him and have the appt already set up for him(in both areas).
And if he doesn't go, then let him go

The boy is at a crossroads in his life!
He still has a chance to clean his act up. He is a perfect model of a typical drug addict. He has to have his drugs. I myself, have been dealing with this for 16 years, so I do know a little about this stuff. lol
He has to hit rock bottom before he'll realize he actually needs help. I am not sure if he wants help or not. I don't know if he is at that point or not, but it sure sounds like it.
All it will cost you is some time(calling pharmacies and making the Dr's appt.) and what it costs for a drug screen. Maybe even confront him with the Dr. first and if he says he will go,(of course you will have to take him) then you can return the Drug screen kit and get your money back. If he says no, kick him out on the scheduled date and be done with it. You have your own problems to deal with! You don't need the extra on you and your wife right now. Actually, I would send him back to his parents! It's not your job to raise him.
He really needs help right now!

And Mark, if you read this, I am glad you have joined this site! I have a few questions that you may be able to answer for me since you are a drug counselor. I myself, would like to become a drug counselor. I just started checking on what it takes to be one. We will have to talk sometime if it would be ok with you? And welcome to this site!

Anyways Bigdog, I wish you luck on whatever you decide to do, and I hope my suggestions can help you with the situation you are in! I know it's not your place to do this, but it looks like you are the only one that can do this for his sake.
Happy


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