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PostPosted: Sun May 27, 2012 5:06 pm 
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I don't want to play the Bad Guy here but...just about everybody here would Luv to be in your shoes in "regard to being 100% Drug Free". What an Awesome way to start off fresh than to be completely off all Medications. To think about going back onto an Opiate is to me Insane......Because......You bring this up without even have given AA or NA..or Therapy a Try. If you are already THINKING about doing Opaites then I feel sorry for you cause chances are you will land up right back where you were to get arrested and thrown into Jail. Here we all sit and have to go thru detox to get off of "stuff" and you are already off of "stuff' But are thinking about using again...WoW !
I just believe you have a very bad mind set or thought process right now. Why don't you look at all the positives that you have going for you right now, just got out of jail, totally 100% drug free. A year ago where were You ? If I were You and this is just Me, I would run... not walk to a bus stop or train station and get a ticket to as far away as your old haunts, friends, places, people that you were around during your drug addiction. Go to someplace new where you find yourself around people that work full time, enjoy their weekends cause they get to go fishing, or watch sports on TV...but whatever you do, STOP thinking about doing drugs again. I know addiction is not easy, but I see so many people over think these issues to the point where they can't see their own nose on their face anymore for looking way too far into the distant future. Concentrate on right here and right now.
If I have been too Harsh I honestly apologize, all I can offer you is to give you some of my hope and encouragement that Anyone can change their lives for the better. You do NOT have to live a life where you have to take drugs to get high. Just think about it, think of all the positives that you have going for you that you didn't year ago, do you really want to go back to all that ?


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PostPosted: Sun May 27, 2012 8:52 pm 
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scruffy wrote:
I would love to be at that point again where Subs were just starting. Knowing what I know now, it would have been three weeks and done. But this option only comes once.


Something happens to us when we become drug addicts. At some point there comes a time when it's not just about the withdrawal but needing to take this substance to feel good or even normal. You are assuming quite a bit when you make the above quote. Do you know for a fact that you would have been fine without oxy? I always "aruge" with you scruffy because I see myself in you! I was so much like you a year into my sub treatment. I was going to meetings every day, and I wanted off sub so bad but what I wasn't considering was that I wasn't ready. I would take extra sub to try and feel better. I remember I took extra sub because I had to speak at an AA meeting and was so nervous!! We get spoiled because we forget what life without our drug of choice really is like. We have sub keeping our receptors full, we have no PAWS yet. (you can get paws from quitting any substance, not just sub) Anyway long story short it took me almost 2 more years to come to grips with my issues to be able to start to taper and it has been SO EASY- when i tried to go from 8mg to 6mg a year into sub treatment it was sucky, just like you describe. Also, there are a lot of things we need to get over as addicts and one is not to say "If I had only done _________ than I would have been fine now". It can really put us in a bad place.

One day at a time,, the past is history... etc.. :)

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TO THE ORIGINAL POSTER BUNNYMAN: sorry your thread is hijacked!! How are you feeling??

peace
GB


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PostPosted: Sun May 27, 2012 10:12 pm 
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Hey Bunnyman...

I can't say I have much of an opinion either way, to be honest. You in yourself know best.

I will say that if you feel it is inevitable you will use, that it is just a matter of time, then I'd support you resorting to Suboxone.

However if you think you have a chance at achieving abstinence, I would encourage you to try that route.

It sounds like the only time you have experienced the freedom of abstinence has been when you've been inside, in an environment where you are not actually free. So really you have yet to experience the true feeling of being free from drug dependence while enjoying freedom in society and life.

I'd encourage you to try and experience that feeling, because even though being on Sub and being "manageable" is far better than addiction, even better is the feeling of being free of dependence and abstinent of all drugs. You are in NA, you can see people around you who have achieved it and you have the tools available to achieve abstinence. Why not give it a red hot go?

You can always resort to Suboxone if you fall over.

There is one thing I'd like to say though, because I believe NA's view of relapse can be quite damaging and caused me to mess up my life more than it had to. There's this idea in there that if you ever slip up and use, you CANNOT stop, it's impossible because we lose power completely. While relapsing makes recovery alot harder, it does not necessarily result in fucking up your recovery completely and losing complete power over yourself. If you do use, it IS possible to man up and white knuckle to prevent yourself from doing it again. Though it is a lot harder to stop yourself using once you've started than it is to just not use when you're clean, it is possible to stop before you start damaging your life. NA convinced me that if I used I HAD TO hit a new low in order to bounce back. They try and use this as a deterrent against relapse. A fucking bunch of baloney.

I've also gotta stress that if you try the abstinence route and you do use, given the clean time you have already, be aware of how low your tolerance is.


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PostPosted: Sun May 27, 2012 10:50 pm 
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Hi Bunnyman,

Lots of posts, but I have to disagree with the idea your thread is hijacked. The more posts the better.

I think the one most important thing is that people are different-- life situation, physical and mental health, drug history, current options, etc. Hearing from different people hopefully presents options to consider. Advice and stories that may or may not help - but what will happen for you is of course up to you totally.


As Thoreau wrote he was writing about what he knew best - himself. What I wrote is really true, for me. All the Oxy I had was from Rx and not one single source from anyone anywhere else --zero. If I would have used the Sub for just detox
the chances of going back to Oxy were ---zero. And I never did seek them out ever, it was a dependency built upon pain prescriptions. This sort of thing is increasing, but is certainly not the case for everyone.

TearJ3rker has written very well from her experience just now and you might get a good deal out of that. I just hope these posts offer some thinking about what options you have and might consider. This is critical because you are at a very clear turning point (a crossroads-- you go one way or another)-- that is for sure true.

I guess my hope would be that you could do what 'one day at a time' suggested. It may or may not be an option for you - we all have different places we are stuck, and various degrees of freedom in our options.

All posters have good motives. There is no absolute truth. I hope all these comments and options help you do the things you will look back on and think you did the very best thing possible.

This is the critical time to consider all of this.

S


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PostPosted: Sun May 27, 2012 11:21 pm 
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This guy that posted previously on this thread...Entropy...I tip my hat to you sir! You have finally taken all the jumbled thoughts I have had about my sub treatment, and put them into place. I have never read anything written so clearly about sub treatment. I have a lot of trouble here with people in recovery that say I am NOT clean and that I am the devil pretty much so this really helped my peace of mind! I have been on subs for a pretty long term stretch of time now, and I feel like I have finally found some peace in taking it. So thanks guy! Thanks for allowing me to quiet the noise in my head that has (as of recently especially) been driving me up the wall about suboxone and the way that it SHOULD be viewed...as a medication for sick people with a REAL disease! Thanks Entropy


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PostPosted: Mon May 28, 2012 12:00 am 
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I agree MovieMaker1. Entropy's post really helped me out too. Sometimes just hearing things (that we might already know) come from someone else, from a different perspective, helps me figure things out and calms my mind.

And welcome to the forum! There are a lot more valuable posts here that have helped me out so much. Tearj3rker is one of the people that I really enjoy reading posts from. I have copied quite a few of his posts into another document that I read from time to time, because it helps me to remember some important points later on when I am having trouble. And he doesn't even know how much he has helped me, so TJ, if you read this...thanks to you for all of your posts! You make me giggle a lot too!


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 Post subject: thanks
PostPosted: Mon May 28, 2012 1:08 am 
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Thank you for the welcome! It IS really nice to hear other peoples opinion, even if we already know what they are saying! Because where I am from there are a lot of people that are very uneducated about Suboxone and just spew out nonsense about how bad it is! So it is great to just hear ANY opinion from SOMEBODY that isn't totally bashing my lifestyle and the medication that I chose to take...TO SAVE MY LIFE! Hehe.


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PostPosted: Mon May 28, 2012 11:07 am 
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The idea or theory is that once a person is an opiate addict, we will always have PHYSICAL cravings for opiates; that something in our brain has changed, never to return to the way it was before. THIS is why suboxone can help people who may have stopped opiates but are terribly fearful of a relapse because of crushing cravings. So the idea of going back on sub is a reasonable one.

These then, are not considered psychological cravings. Without the opiates in our brain, many believe that those cravings will ALWAYS be there. This is why many people believe in long term or life long sub maintenance.

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PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2012 12:13 am 
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hatmaker510 wrote:
The idea or theory is that once a person is an opiate addict, we will always have PHYSICAL cravings for opiates; that something in our brain has changed, never to return to the way it was before. THIS is why suboxone can help people who may have stopped opiates but are terribly fearful of a relapse because of crushing cravings. So the idea of going back on sub is a reasonable one.

These then, are not considered psychological cravings. Without the opiates in our brain, many believe that those cravings will ALWAYS be there. This is why many people believe in long term or life long sub maintenance.


What you have written makes sense to me, hat. To allow for genuine and very real, legitimate schools of thought, I might have said it like this:

Quote:
There is one school of thought that says that once a person is an opiate addict, we will always have PHYSICAL cravings for opiates; that something in our brain has changed, never to return to the way it was before. THIS is why suboxone can help people who may have stopped opiates but are terribly fearful of a relapse because of crushing cravings. So the idea of going back on sub may be a reasonable one for certain kinds of addicts.


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PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2012 3:22 am 
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Regarding the taking of opiates. Surly there is a continumn. In medical settings some people are given opiates for two weeks and then told to stop. Often the patient does not like this discontinuation, but most doctors think nothing physical has happened and insist that the patient just not take more.

An experiment that cannot be done would take some given groups - non-drug users, moderate drug users, heavy drug users ---some reasonable categories of use. Then randomly assign these groups to various interventions, several conditions such as mild opiate use per day, moderate, heavy. --that would be given to the members of the group. And then vary the time this is continued -- one week, two weeks, three weeks, four, etc. up to a year.

Obviously an experiment we cannot do. It must remain a thought experiment (a legitimate tool) to use.

What would be expect? What you would predict would probably indicate you basic feeling about how opiates work on the human brain.

Taking the group who had never taken an opiate before the experiment. I would predict high correlations between the amount given and the time continued and classic definitions of physical addiction. Surly a subject given high doses each day for an entire year would be very likely to be "addicted". On autopsy we might expect to actually measure changes to brain tissue. (Maybe physical changes on the gross level, but maybe more subtle, not seen with a microscope).

In the same way -- We would not expect to see much in this group if given a small dose of opiates for only one week.
Here we would expect they could just get back to complete normality, with most not having much of a problem at all.

Which brings up the complicating factor of minorities within these groups that would indeed act in "addictive" ways after a brief exposure -- in volume and time. The sensitive minority?

This minority population would logically increase as dose and time increased. The vulnerable group getting larger.

This "thought experiment" would probably have most people agreeing about the far ends of the range. But how the middle would correlate would be determined by how one views the workings of opiates on the brain. The predictions made for the whole experiment would be interesting to see.

The predictions would show what we believe. If the experiment were actually done, it would show which theories are in accord with the way the world works. Sadly, some would not give up pet theories no matter what kind of evidence was provided.

So, given the lack of solid evidence, maybe it is just a matter of private opinion after all. We can only hope that the private opinions lead to healthy outcomes - or at least the best possible outcomes. Maybe these outcomes are the best evidence we will ever get -- and we should keep and open mind and look with care when evaluating how our beliefs lead to desirable outcomes, or not.

Just an opinion - about opinions.

S


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PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2012 3:35 am 
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In response to the post by Hatmaker and the response to that by SI. If this were me -- if I had taken Subs in the past and had taken Oxy in the past, and was now completely free of the two due to lack of access --- I indeed would be concerned about the fact my cravings (or physical addiction) could be very real. I would be very glad Suboxone were there to help.

But what would I "do". I would do everything I could to remain drug free and see if indeed my body and brain responded by reverting to the way they acted a decade or more in the past. Indeed, I would hope this would be possible and give it the best chance and try as hard as I could.

If, having done that, I failed. I would be very glad Suboxone was there, and start treatment.

In other words, I would not act based on my opinion, I would act based on what actually happened during my best effort.

Truly,

S


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PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2012 6:42 am 
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And there is nothing wrong with trying everything first before going back on suboxone, Scruffy.

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PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2012 12:59 pm 
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Hello everyone!

I apologize for the delay with follow up posts on the topic at hand. On weekends I devote time to my wife and daughter. I can actually do that now. Where as before I was the stereotypical absent father running a muck in my efforts to score some Bentley compounds. You guys understand...

At any rate, I would like to thank those of you that responded to my critique of buprenorphine and it's medicinal qualities. I can't tell you how fulfilling it is to know that I was able to generate such encouragement. If these boards are to contribute anything worth our time and attention, anything worth merit, it should be with the ends of promoting understanding and insight into the paradox of our addictions. All the while demonstrating compassion for one another regardless of our current attitude towards another persons method of success. I am new here, but everyone thus far has done just that.

In response to SometimeIdiot:

You are by no means being a jerk! That is more than a legitimate question. One that shows you don't take what someone claims, especially over the internet, as being absolute! I should have included at least one source backing up my statement that patients relapse with the discontinuation of buprenorphine maintenance. Here is what I have discovered:

http://www.nih.gov/news/health/nov2011/nida-08a.htm

This comes from the National Institute Of Health. They write: "The study suggests that patients addicted to prescription opioid painkillers can be effectively treated in primary care settings using Suboxone," said NIDA Director Nora D. Volkow, M.D. "However, once the medication was discontinued, patients had a high rate of relapse — so, more research is needed to determine how to sustain recovery among patients addicted to opioid medications."

It is worth noting however, that the authors confess a need for further research into the matter. But what research that has been done clearly reveals that many, perhaps not all patients revert back to addictive behaviors and illicit drug use once the treatment has ended.

http://naswak.org/app/download/58315151 ... h+2012.pdf

I also happened upon this slide show presentation that briefly overviews the history of opioid addiction, along with the introduction of methadone, and then finally buprenorphine as a substitute treatment option for opioid addiction. in the last slide you notice that the doctor documents a greater than 90% relapse rate after taper.

I have to get some sleep before heading off to work, but I would like to dig up some more sources for you later on. As mentioned, there has not been a concrete study done, but there are numerous clinical observations indicating the constant need for buprenorphine to maintain patients from relapse. And in addition to my own experience when I had to go several days without a refill till payday, using was the only thing I once again began to obsess about. It hurt, and I realized then that I could not and would not ever discontinue buprenorphine for any reason.

I hope that I was able to shed light on your curiosity. At least to some extent. We'll all discuss this further if you or others are so inclined. I for one enjoy it! Take care everyone, and keep up the good work!

-Josh AKA Entropy


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PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2012 3:22 pm 
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The problem with a lot of the studies that I've seen is that the course of treatment only lasted up to 8 or 12 weeks. IMO, 12 weeks on Suboxone, for a hard core opiate addict, is woefully inadequate.....no wonder why they relapsed.

Another issue I have with those studies is that the term relapse seems to suggest that those addicts should be thrown into the idiot bin for the rest of their lives because they relapsed. The term relapse seems to imply they got on drugs and will never again be clean and that's simply not true. Some people have to experience a relapse or two before their recovery really begins.

Using the yardstick of a relapse, after an 8 or 12 week stint on Suboxone, to guage success or failure is pretty silly, as far as I'm concerned.

From this forum alone, I know that DoaQ, Bronzebeta, myself, Aquasun12206, mg113, RainRainGoAway, Brian_Tx, cbk1013, laddertipper and hawker have all quit Suboxone. As far as I'm aware, I'm the only one who relapsed after getting off of Suboxone, but my relapses were part of my path to recovery. Also, I believe all of those members I mentioned were on Suboxone for at least a year.

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 Post subject: Update
PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2012 8:32 pm 
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Everyone,

Thank you, thank you for all the replies!! I value all of them....

Update: seeing my Sub doc tomorrow morning at 8:00. I'm going to be honest with him.....I have been drinking a bit. Not getting drunk, but buzzed. My cravings are crazy, and I'm in a unique situation as far as mobility. I'm not getting my license back until July at least. I struggle with depression also, and the Sub helps a ton. I think it's just permanent PAWS. So, we'll see. He's a gem, I know he'll help me.

Bunny


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PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2012 10:43 pm 
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BunnyMan...You know yourself way better than any of us. Use your best judgement, like someone earlier posted when making a rather huge decision about your life, take the time to weigh all your options, get all the facts that you can, talk to others. And at that point it is up to you to make the best decision for You. Going back to Suboxone as opposed to Heroin, my friend that is a No-Brainer. But we all want you to exhaust all your other options before you do go back on Opiates, Therapy, etc. if they are available and MIGHT Help You, but again it is You that truly knows what you are capable of right now. You have Choices where-as years ago you didn't so you are in a much much better situation than you ever have been if we know your story correctly. I hope you try Therapy first, but if you do go back to Suboxone this time around. Please take the Time to INCLUDE a consuling type Therapy included with the Suboxone to re-educate yourself to how to help yourself avoid the nightmare of street drugs. We all are on Your side, keep us posted as to the outcome with your Doctor. Hang in there, you can do it and get yourself back to where you want to be.


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 Post subject: RESEARCH
PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2012 11:14 pm 
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Maybe there should be a new subject heading titled "Research on Suboxone" where the academic research
itself could be discussed and debated? There may be enough research now, and comments on what it might
mean.

S


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PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2012 11:20 pm 
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There is a section called "Links"....any outside research will likely have a link and can go there. That's where we've been putting things like that. It's where the NIH acute pain paper is.

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 Post subject: Re: Update
PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2012 1:48 pm 
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Bunny,

I think it's great you are going. I don't know if you have problems with alcohol too like I do but one thing I noticed when I started sub was that it seemed to get a little easier to stop drinking. I drank everyday all day for almost 10 years and when I started subs I kind of gradually weaned from alcohol for around 7 months. It got easier and easier for me. Last month I celebrated 2 years free from booze and all drugs (beside sub). Miracle for me, truly.

Also to scruffy and others: have you ever heard about the study of Vietnam soldiers returning home and heroin detoxing? I am on a plane about to take off but I will try to find a link later. It's about how many stayed clean and had no problem going back to normal life. FAR MORE were able to stay clean but I think something like 5% could not stay clean. It's very interesting. AA speakers mention it to show that some of us just have this addiction thing but many can detox and be fine...

Ok getting yelled at to turn off device...

bunnyman wrote:
Everyone,

Thank you, thank you for all the replies!! I value all of them....

Update: seeing my Sub doc tomorrow morning at 8:00. I'm going to be honest with him.....I have been drinking a bit. Not getting drunk, but buzzed. My cravings are crazy, and I'm in a unique situation as far as mobility. I'm not getting my license back until July at least. I struggle with depression also, and the Sub helps a ton. I think it's just permanent PAWS. So, we'll see. He's a gem, I know he'll help me.

Bunny


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 Post subject: Update
PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2012 9:56 pm 
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Saw the Sub doc this morning. I admitted I had been drinking and "peeking" in medicine cabinets looking for pills. He gave me a script for ninety 8-mg Subs. He's very cool about letting you find your own dose. But I cannot fill it until Friday, because my insurance coverage doesn't begin until then.

Bunny


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