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PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2012 5:53 pm 
I have a pretty good idea what the answer is to this question, otherwise i wouldnt be seeking advice or perhaps a reason to keep doing it. Then again i just dont know. See, i never really had a probelm with drinkin. I drank quite a bit socially like 18-22. Then after i stopped goin to keggers and whatnot i found myself takin pills. Now, being 25 and newly sober off all narcotics.... i find myself wanting to drink much more. maybe just a couple times a week. But i realized only recently i think it may be a problem. I know its not often i drink, but when i'm invited to an event or to go out somewhere i have a bigger urge to drink a couple beers to ride a buzz. I always want to drink more than 1 2 or even 3. But, never got a dui... never had any horrible things happen while being drunk. I dont know, maybe i am a "responsible" drinker. But, lately i think its more of a pyscological issue.....why i have been drinking. I hope this little phase or whatever this is passes when the PAWS subsides. Drinking briefly brings me out of my current discomfort from PAWS. No doubt

I already know what they would tell me in NA or the 12steps... but what do you think?


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2012 10:55 pm 
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I'd be careful.................

I get it. I mean, I understand your motives. You just gotta be CAREFUL. you know?
if you think you can handle the ocassional drink, than more power to ya!!! But I'd be careful right now, just newly being off narcotics.
Your addict brain may be searching for a "replacement"
I mean, I came outta rehab for methamphetimine addiction, and about 6 months later I was perscribed pain pills, and I was like "this sobriety thing is EASY!!"
LOL

Im not saying your gonna end up an alcoholic, Im just saying watch it. I wouldnt judge anybody for having a beer, especially in a social setting.

good luck, in whatever you decide :wink:

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 21, 2012 8:41 pm 
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Hey Dude,

My opinion won't help much being an alcoholic in recovery. But reading your post had me thinking it both ways, meaning it sounded like you wanted to drink for the buzz but then also you had no problem with stopping it.

Only you can make the decision on whether or not to drink. If I wasn't an alkie I'd jump on the chance to drink again. Now doesn't that sound like a problem drinker? Most everything I've read has been not to drink while recovering but then I also know folks who have succeeded in doing it.

I do have a bit of envy for those who can drink responsibly. But then I've drank enough for one lifetime.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 21, 2012 9:16 pm 
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I was never a big drinker. The only reason I did it in high school and college is because my friends were drinking and I thought I should too. I never enjoyed the taste of alcohol or its effects. But, now that I'm off Suboxone, I've found I crave alcohol and I've drank a few times and REALLY enjoyed it.....I knew right then I had to quit because I knew where it was going.

I think Amber is right on when she said our brains are basically just searching for a new addiction. I was really surprised how I went from basically hating alcohol for SO many years to all of a sudden feeling that I really liked it.

Being young like you are, it's gonna be very hard not to drink, especially in social settings, but I think you need to give it a shot.

That's my 2 cents.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 22, 2012 6:11 am 
All good honest advice


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 22, 2012 6:31 am 
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I'm actually quite surprised to read that you are being ENCOURAGED to drink. If I were you....I wouldn't touch it with a ten foot pose. If not for any other reason than the fact that you said you would be doing it to "ride a buzz". Responsible drivkers dont drink to "ride a buzz". I personally can take or leave alcohol. Mostly I leave it. I was always the DD, anytime I went out with friends.
There are rare occasions that someone is making some frozen fruity drink and I LOVE the taste of it. The taste. Not the effect. The fact that some frozen alchoholic drink tastes good, so I have one....is responsible. Because I have ONE.

You are a big boy and can make your own decisions. I just worry a bit when someone is "craving alcohol now that they are off suboxone". It's like you aren't being stimulated by anything anymore, and your brain is searching for something to stimulate it again. Just like Amber said. I think that if you decide to drink, be VERY CAUTIOUS.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 22, 2012 5:35 pm 
Theres still a few things that "stimulates" me. haha but i get what you're saying. Like i said, PAWS blows and i dont think anyone enjoys it.


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 25, 2012 1:12 pm 
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I am on naltrexone and the doc actually told me i could drink on it just not to get drunk as it won't do anything to me. I guess maybe if i did i could win a drinking contest like the lady from Indiana Jones. That be neat, but i'm not a drinker. I have a drink or 2 with dinner every several months but i'm just 2 1/2 weeks outta detox. Maybe not the best advice for me at this time. I think it may hurt the healing process not help. Or trade one thing for another.

I once said...Just a few vicodin won't hurt and they help me get through the day i can control this. 4 years on suboxone. Just saying' drinking not bad making a habit is. Be careful my friend. And Never think "i can control this"

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 25, 2012 6:07 pm 
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according to a couple addiction specialists i've talked to , drinking actually prolongs the PAWS process physically, let alone puts you at the risk for developing a new addiction.


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 25, 2012 6:34 pm 
If a Dr said it it must be true?? I dont know man maybe eric is. But what you just said scared me enough to chill out with it even though i dont know if i believe that 100%. Either way, if there is a possibility of something making PAWS longer or more intense fuck that.


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 25, 2012 9:05 pm 
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This made me wonder.... does the liver repairing itself have anything to do with PAWS? Since opiates are broken down in the liver, then there could be an obvious correlation between alcohol prolonging PAWS, because the alcohol could prolong to liver issues causing PAWS issues? This kinda sounds like BS but just a thought. I mean... consuming alcohol while using opiates can have a double pow effect... there is def. something related..


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 26, 2012 9:31 am 
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It's up to you man.

Just be wary and check your motives. IMO it's okay to crave alcoholic beveridges. I fucking love a nice good cold beer on a warm day, cooking a BBQ. A lot of normal non-addicts crave a couple of "knock-off" drinks after a hard day at work.

The problems come when you crave the effects of alcohol. If you feel you're wanting to drink to take the edge off your PAWS, I'd steer well clear. You're fertile ground for cross addiction at the moment. If i could tell you the number of alcoholics I met in rehab who became alcoholics after tapering off methadone, it was crazy.

There are no 100% full on rules with drinking in recovery. I've known people who've had quality recoveries without Sub who've continued to drink occasionally. Others who've gone the total abstinence route. Like others have said though, around this period expecially, be careful. Set yourself a firm boundary, say only drinking in social settings when others are.

It can be really hard as a young person to not drink I know that all too well. That was one of the issues I had with NA. These days alcohol I can take or leave, but being on Sub I think is a barrier for me falling into addictive behaviours in general.

Good luck.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 26, 2012 1:24 pm 
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hey, yeah i've struggled with the whole alcohol prolonging PAWS, too. Only in my case, I feel i'd like to take a klonopin once in a while when i'm desperate, but i'm scared it will set me back. Apparently both alcohol and benzodiazepines are possible set backs,along with other types of addictive drugs.

I, like you, don't know if i believe it 100%. I don't think either of the people i talked to gave a 100% it will set you back answer, but they were both definitely very opposed to benzos and downers and both really seemed to think they would prolong paws. How much it would prolong it, dunno.

The one doctor I talked to was local with 38 years experience, and the other guy runs this website digital dharma, i'm not sure what his qualifications are, heres the site and the article he wrote on PAWS, it seems pretty popular, Romeo showed it to me a while back.

-

http://digital-dharma.net/post-acute-wi ... mediately/

What it did do is make me think, and it stopped me taking any klonopin, even small doses for several months now. Not sure if thats a good or bad thing, I really feel i needed it at times:-/


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 26, 2012 11:05 pm 
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I dunno if I agree with the whole cross-PAWS thing. Mainly because there are fuck-all studies about PAWS, let alone studies about this stuff. Actually, I don't think there has been one study on PAWS? Just a few papers, mainly written by Terrence Gorski?

Anyway, alcohol and benzo use wouldn't do PAWS any good. But having a couple of wines over dinner occasionally I doubt would affect it much at all? To be honest I dunno if drinking occasionally or using benzos would restart PAWS to anywhere near the extent of using opioids, because it's our outta-whack opioid system that's causing most of the grief when we come off Suboxone.

I've found that some of my doctors (especially psychiatrists) have tried to tell lil white lies if they think they will help them do the right thing. I had a psych tell me when I was on this brain-damage trip that using opioids of any kind stops lithium from being neuroprotective. Ran it past a couple of docs and google and never heard anything about that? I get the feeling most people don't question their doctor's orders, so docs use this kinda malevolence to try and guide their patients to do the right thing.

Any mood-altering drugs of abuse of ANY kind aren't good for PAWS, or recovery. Esp with risk of cross addiction. I think this is why patients are advised to stay away. But by far the worst drug to use is any kinda opioid. Also psychologically, using ANY drug to "take the edge off" is a huge no-no. If a person's gotta take Klonopin each day, same dose, for epilepsy, and they become tolerant and it doesn't get them high, that's a bit different to taking benzos occasionally when the PAWS gets just-too-much to handle. One of those has much more relapse potential than the other.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 27, 2012 1:36 pm 
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paws isn't good for paws". :lol: my suboxone doc said many times its ok to have 2 or 3 beers every now and then.
when i go off suboxone there better be something good for paws if i go through it. i am only a pain patient. i will try anything that will be a lesser of the 2 evil thing.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 27, 2012 4:47 pm 
TeeJay wrote:
I dunno if I agree with the whole cross-PAWS thing. Mainly because there are fuck-all studies about PAWS, let alone studies about this stuff. Actually, I don't think there has been one study on PAWS? Just a few papers, mainly written by Terrence Gorski?

Anyway, alcohol and benzo use wouldn't do PAWS any good. But having a couple of wines over dinner occasionally I doubt would affect it much at all? To be honest I dunno if drinking occasionally or using benzos would restart PAWS to anywhere near the extent of using opioids, because it's our outta-whack opioid system that's causing most of the grief when we come off Suboxone.

I've found that some of my doctors (especially psychiatrists) have tried to tell lil white lies if they think they will help them do the right thing. I had a psych tell me when I was on this brain-damage trip that using opioids of any kind stops lithium from being neuroprotective. Ran it past a couple of docs and google and never heard anything about that? I get the feeling most people don't question their doctor's orders, so docs use this kinda malevolence to try and guide their patients to do the right thing.

Any mood-altering drugs of abuse of ANY kind aren't good for PAWS, or recovery. Esp with risk of cross addiction. I think this is why patients are advised to stay away. But by far the worst drug to use is any kinda opioid. Also psychologically, using ANY drug to "take the edge off" is a huge no-no. If a person's gotta take Klonopin each day, same dose, for epilepsy, and they become tolerant and it doesn't get them high, that's a bit different to taking benzos occasionally when the PAWS gets just-too-much to handle. One of those has much more relapse potential than the other.



Hey TJ- good hearin from you again. I agree with your whole 2nd paragraph. Dr.'s may sometimes tell their patients a fabrication for the sole purpose of helping them. Or, just do it for the payday. Or, just trusted a study way too much. There are usually many variables in studies and every few years they are always changing a little or lot.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 27, 2012 5:36 pm 
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Well, here's part of the response I got from the guy on digital dharma when i asked him about using benzos for PAWS. Not sure what this guys qualifications are

"My advice is based on the collective advice of a number of experts that I consult in person, online, and through reference. As you will have noted from your browsing on the subject, there is little literature — far too little — about PAWS and the issues surrounding it. That does not mean that my advice is incorrect. What it may mean is that you were looking for something to contradict it, and couldn’t find anything. Lack of proof does not constitute proof.
Benzodiazepines are highly addictive drugs that operate in the same areas of the brain as most other “downers,” including alcohol, although their mechanism of action is somewhat different. You will find that few if any experts on addiction recommend treating with them, except for the purpose of alleviating the symptoms of acute withdrawal. I will not recommend them for extended use, ever. Having been addicted to them myself, I know first-hand what they can do. The withdrawal syndrome from benzodiazepine addiction can be more severe, and lasts up to three times as long, as that from alcohol — both during acute withdrawal and PAWS. As an example, I detoxed from alcohol in five days; the benzo detox took an additional two weeks, and I was pretty off-the-wall for over a year. That experience was what later got me interested in PAWS, and the lack of information is why I started lecturing on it, and eventually wrote this article."

The addiction specialist i talked to on the phone, said similar things.

I can't imagine alcohol is any better than benzos like klonopin and xanax during PAWS, but i dunno.


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 28, 2012 1:36 am 
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i guess i should mention that earlier in my conversation with him he said this

"How long have you been clean? If you are actually in withdrawal, then Klonopin might alleviate some of the symptoms, but should be discontinued as soon as possible. If you have been clean for longer than a couple of weeks, the symptom reduction would probably not be worth the prolongation of PAWS. If you continued to take the Klonopin, you could end up with a cross-addiction. Personally, I would not chance it unless I were under the supervision of a doctor who really understands addiction."

the quote i posted before didnt make the prolongation of PAWS part very clear.


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 28, 2012 5:07 pm 
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I find that while I am on Suboxone I am able to drink, appropriately.

Before Suboxone I was completely abstinent from alcohol, because for me if I was drunk with lowered inhibitions I might go use opiates.

With that monkey off my back I found I could drink again because their would be no craving.

This is just my experience hope it helps in some way.


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