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PostPosted: Thu Apr 05, 2012 3:09 am 
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When I do go and I share I'm on subs I get dirty looks sometimes. Should I be going on subs or wait till im clean? I hate going in their with pin point pupils and cotton mouth from subs looking like im high when I'm not I no its a weird situation so anyone with experience thank you.


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 05, 2012 12:08 pm 
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the fact that you take Suboxone is between you, your sponsor and GOD.
I know it sucks feeling like you are being judged, especially at a place like NA where supposedly addicts should feel comfortable and like they belong! The other paradox is that the program is one of rigorous honesty and leaving subs out of the picture is lying by omission which is still lying...
The fact is, YOU know you're not high, GOD knows you're not high and that's all that matters. You should never go around living with a feeling like you're being judged, that will eventually lead you back to relapse. Also if you are getting dirty glances, find a different group that accepts you.
Maybe even you can switch fellowships and try AA, those folk are generally more accepting towards bupe(less judgemental because unlike the NA people, AAs just simply admit that they don't know enough about suboxone[and drugs in general] to have a negative opinion on it whereas the NA people kind of think they know a lot about drugs[and they should, its 'narcotics' after all] to make a judgment call when in reality Suboxone is a complciated drug to understand and even some PRESCRIBERS(who after all went through a seminar, albeit only an 8hour one but nevertheless, to get approved for it) don't fully understand it)!
Ihope this helps. KEEP COMING, it works if you work it

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 05, 2012 2:14 pm 
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I am going to start either AA or NA sometime within the next week. I'm in the process of trying to find a meeting close to me that I will be able to attend. Which one would you suggest, NA or AA? And should I just go in and tell them I've been clean for 15 days, or tell them I'm on suboxone for 15 days now?


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 05, 2012 3:51 pm 
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I would recommend AA for the same exact reasoning as my previous post. there just seems to be more "recovery" in AA in my area than NA. your area can be different. qhorsegal, it really all depends on the person and your self-identification. both fellowships are good in my opinion, I wouldn't go in advertising that ur on Suboxone, if somebody asks you about medication then you shouldn't lie, but I wouldn't scream it off the rooftops either. I find my situation simialr to a person suffering from depression, for example, they don't walk into the halls yelling "I'm on Prozac, I'm on Prozac!!"

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 05, 2012 3:59 pm 
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Dopeless Hopefiend wrote:
I would recommend AA for the same exact reasoning as my previous post. there just seems to be more "recovery" in AA in my area than NA. your area can be different. qhorsegal, it really all depends on the person and your self-identification. both fellowships are good in my opinion, I wouldn't go in advertising that ur on Suboxone, if somebody asks you about medication then you shouldn't lie, but I wouldn't scream it off the rooftops either. I find my situation simialr to a person suffering from depression, for example, they don't walk into the halls yelling "I'm on Prozac, I'm on Prozac!!"


Thanks you that made sense an helped maybe I'll keep it to myself. I hVe tried AA and I feel like if they look at me like jm crazy when I say I'm a addict in general even though there addicts as well but alcohol is the only drug with its own name for being addicted to it , alcoholism, to make it more socially acceptable and less taboo!


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 05, 2012 10:28 pm 
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After going to 12-step meetings for 3 years, I've come to the realisation that NA, and to a lesser extent AA, are incompatible with opioid substitution therapy.

I'll never forget hearing a 19 year old girl who was 6 months clean off marijuana get up and share to the meeting "It just breaks my heart hearing people say they're on drug replacement, it breaks my heart that they just can't get the miracle of the program while they have a drug still in their body".

I told her to come back with a real habit.


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 05, 2012 10:42 pm 
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WTF??? Do people really go to NA for an addiction to marijuana??????? Sorry, hope it doesn't sound like I'm judging here...I just never heard of that before. Of course Ive never been to a meeting before so I guess that's why.

Well, I think I will just go and not say anything about my ORT. I will probably be able to get a feel for the group after a couple of meetings and see whether I fit in or not. This is one drawback to living in a small town. Only one meeting is showing for my immediate area. I am hoping I like the people and that it doesn't feel to weird when I go in. It's all a learning experience I guess.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 06, 2012 1:00 am 
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Yeah qhorse there are some people there for weed. I never really understood it because weed was never a difficult drug to quit for me.

In her case she came from a wealthy middle class family, and her parents sent her to rehab when they found out she was smoking bongs. The rehab just happened to be a 12-step rehab, told her she needed to go to meetings or she would relapse and die ... and that's what she did.

There were some other people in the rooms for weed, and even some who it was rumored never even did drugs and were just lonely.

The thing about NA and Suboxone / methadone treatment, is that in the eyes of NA being on Suboxone is no different to abusing opioids in addiction. We are all still in active addiction in the eyes of the program.

I was going to meetings while I was on Suboxone twice. Both times I felt pressured to reduce my Suboxone when I wasn't ready. Everyone in the meetings felt obliged to identify as "reducing off drug replacement" because to not be reducing meant you weren't in recovery. I jumped off high doses of Suboxone twice because I didn't consider myself clean. I also wanted to be open to the program, and was made to feel that being on Sub blocked me from the miracle of the program.

What's worse was that I found that attitude extended to other medications as well. I was told that me being prescribed psych meds for my bipolar was treading on "thin ice", that there are "no answers in psychiatry", that if I worked the steps the miracle of the program would cure my need for psych meds (even though when I was 13 months clean doing NA, I went off my medications and got sick while praying, doing a meeting a day and working the steps).

I've achieved more and been more stable these last 2 years since leaving the rooms than I had in those 3 years. Despite spending 3/4 of the days of those 3 years completely abstinent, every time I relapsed I lost EVERYTHING. I was so convinced by the program that if I picked up I'd lose all control, that I'd lose everything because I was powerless once I picked up ... that when I did eventually slip up and use I felt so hopeless and powerless and a failure that I binged HARD. I even believed (because of the "rock bottom" idea they drum into people) that the ONLY way I'd get clean for life was if I hit my bottom and went to jail. After all I'd done everything short of that! (People in the rooms would say "well maybe that's what you need") I was doing worse crimes than I ever had because I was convinced it would be good for my recovery. How fucking sick is that?

People joke in the rooms that 12-step fellowships are a "benign cult". Benign my arse.

I can say a lot of negative things about NA, and some positive things as well (not in the mood today though). These are my opinions as a person not as a moderator.

The fact these programs are still dictate these archaic backward recovery philosophies, perpetuate these ideas that we are powerless, that we have to hit a "rock bottom" ... that we are shameful humans and that a divine higher power is the only thing that can save us from ourselves ... and that doctors and people of science REFER people to this program that reeks of catholicism.

The best way to cure an addict of self-obsession is to let them talk about themselves in front of a room full of people? :lol:

Instead of spending my days hanging around other sick people with the "disease of addiction", I've realised that for me the best way to get well is to hang around people who are well. And I tell you those rooms are no well-spring of mental health.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 06, 2012 4:05 am 
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tearj3rker wrote:
Yeah qhorse there are some people there for weed. I never really understood it because weed was never a difficult drug to quit for me.

In her case she came from a wealthy middle class family, and her parents sent her to rehab when they found out she was smoking bongs. The rehab just happened to be a 12-step rehab, told her she needed to go to meetings or she would relapse and die ... and that's what she did.

There were some other people in the rooms for weed, and even some who it was rumored never even did drugs and were just lonely.

The thing about NA and Suboxone / methadone treatment, is that in the eyes of NA being on Suboxone is no different to abusing opioids in addiction. We are all still in active addiction in the eyes of the program.

I was going to meetings while I was on Suboxone twice. Both times I felt pressured to reduce my Suboxone when I wasn't ready. Everyone in the meetings felt obliged to identify as "reducing off drug replacement" because to not be reducing meant you weren't in recovery. I jumped off high doses of Suboxone twice because I didn't consider myself clean. I also wanted to be open to the program, and was made to feel that being on Sub blocked me from the miracle of the program.

What's worse was that I found that attitude extended to other medications as well. I was told that me being prescribed psych meds for my bipolar was treading on "thin ice", that there are "no answers in psychiatry", that if I worked the steps the miracle of the program would cure my need for psych meds (even though when I was 13 months clean doing NA, I went off my medications and got sick while praying, doing a meeting a day and working the steps).

I've achieved more and been more stable these last 2 years since leaving the rooms than I had in those 3 years. Despite spending 3/4 of the days of those 3 years completely abstinent, every time I relapsed I lost EVERYTHING. I was so convinced by the program that if I picked up I'd lose all control, that I'd lose everything because I was powerless once I picked up ... that when I did eventually slip up and use I felt so hopeless and powerless and a failure that I binged HARD. I even believed (because of the "rock bottom" idea they drum into people) that the ONLY way I'd get clean for life was if I hit my bottom and went to jail. After all I'd done everything short of that! (People in the rooms would say "well maybe that's what you need") I was doing worse crimes than I ever had because I was convinced it would be good for my recovery. How fucking sick is that?

People joke in the rooms that 12-step fellowships are a "benign cult". Benign my arse.

I can say a lot of negative things about NA, and some positive things as well (not in the mood today though). These are my opinions as a person not as a moderator.

The fact these programs are still dictate these archaic backward recovery philosophies, perpetuate these ideas that we are powerless, that we have to hit a "rock bottom" ... that we are shameful humans and that a divine higher power is the only thing that can save us from ourselves ... and that doctors and people of science REFER people to this program that reeks of catholicism.

The best way to cure an addict of self-obsession is to let them talk about themselves in front of a room full of people? :lol:

Instead of spending my days hanging around other sick people with the "disease of addiction", I've realised that for me the best way to get well is to hang around people who are well. And I tell you those rooms are no well-spring of mental health.


This really made sense and hit home. Thanks for that


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 06, 2012 5:40 am 
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It was just a bit of a rant.

I don't mean to steer people away from the program because of my experience. NA just didn't work for me. Doesn't mean it won't work for you. It might be the thing that allows you to get clean. But if it isn't working, for god's sake try something else. Despite what they say, it doesn't work for everyone. They do not have a monopoly on recovery.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 06, 2012 10:31 am 
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Thank you for that honesty Tear, I appreciate your personal experiences. It makes no sense to me to tell people that hitting rock bottom or going to jail is something to strive for! If that is the case I won't fit in at all. I was only in active addiction for about 2 years, and I was very lucky never to get arrested while buying or using. But I know that if I hadn't gotten help and started the suboxone I would have wound up with serious liver problems, or OD, or I would have lost my family. Silly me, I would rather get clean before these things happen....

I think I am just going to go and try it...my therapist has told me that I really need to give it a shot. I will try it, I won't tell anyone I am on ORT. If I get to the point that I want to stay and choose a sponsor I will tell that person I am taking suboxone. I would hate to start a relationship with someone like this (sponsor/sponsee?) and not be completely honest with them. But I am going into it knowing that the program has flaws and is not infallible! Thank you so much for the honesty!


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 06, 2012 1:15 pm 
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I wasn't going to say anything because people get offended sometimes over religion, but after reading your post Tear, I felt the same anger as I do toward religion. I have always viewed AA and NA as a sort of religion or cult. I don't agree with addiction being a disease, and that we don't have a choice, and that we have to submit to a higher power either. Sounds like if you don't do it their way, then you are not doing it the right way...reminds me of church.

I grew up having to go to church every Sunday morning, Sunday night, Wednesday night, church camp, bible school, etc. I didn't know it at the time, but as I became an adult, after 20 years of this, I realized that this had instilled so much guilt into me that I am still trying to get rid of. It shaped who I am and how I feel about things for the rest of my life. My parents were only doing what they thought was best for me, and what they believed in, but it screwed me up.

I will never step foot in any church or anything closed to organized religion again. Even now, when I see religious programs on tv, I can feel the anger brewing inside of me.

And I won't even comment on the subject of people 'addicted' to weed.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 06, 2012 2:32 pm 
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In my two years on Sub I have attended several AA meetings and have chosen not to share my treatment method. I don't feel like I'm being dishonest because I consider it a personal medical situation and it's no ones business but my own.

But then I haven't gotten tight with anyone nor found a sponsor so that is something to consider. If I had one I guess I would tell them and see if they are open minded or not. If not, I'll look for another meeting or try NA instead. I am not new to AA as they helped me get sober back in '87 when I couldn't do it myself. It may not be for everyone but they sure helped me.

And I too have trouble with the "God" part. But you know, all I do is ignore it and leave it there. They have a saying there that says "take what you need and leave the rest behind". It worked for me. Will it work again for my addiction? Mongo don't know. I haven't really tried.

There are other programs out there too. Rational Recovery is one and others here know of more. Do some research and you'll find 'em.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 06, 2012 7:40 pm 
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When na refers to a higher power or god it in now way is talking about Jesus Christ. A higher power can be a tree for all it matters. I'm going to keep going I feel comfortable their for some reason even tho they don't agree with my method of suboxone but I don't care.


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 Post subject: Re: Disclosure
PostPosted: Fri Apr 06, 2012 8:20 pm 
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rule62 wrote:
They have a saying there that says "take what you need and leave the rest behind". It worked for me. Will it work again for my addiction? Mongo don't know. I haven't really tried.


That's the trick I think, and it was something I never nailed - just taking what I needed. If I were to do it all again, I would heed this advice. It was unfortunate that my first rehab / indoctrination into AA/NA was very against this idea .. they were very hard line and oldschool - so I got instilled with some of the more extreme views ... "you can't score while you're on your knees praying" ... stuff like that.

There ARE groups of people in the meetings who are quite carefree about the program, and are there mainly to remind themselves of their addiction, stay grateful and network with other people in recovery. I remember the "steps nazis" didn't agree with such people.

I was always going to be all-or-nothing when it came to a program like NA.

But by going there while on Suboxone, and choosing not to tell the room - I guess that can keep a person distant enough from it all that they could manage to just hear what they need.


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 07, 2012 12:55 am 
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I feel that my addiction is a DISEASE and that i AM powerless. Now that doesn't mean I'm not responsible for my actions either: for example when I steal your jewelry and go pawn it off to get some dope money I can't just say oh sorry man, that wasn't me that was my disease that did that lol. No, it simply means that once I start I cannot stop, there is no off switch in my brain that tells me when I'm done, and that has been proven on a physiological/anatomical level studying addicts brains. one is too many and a thousand is never enough for me.

I CANT HAVE JUST ONE. Consider this analogy: when I jump in front of a moving train, it isn't th middle car or the last car that kills me, its the friggin locomotive!! as simple as that, I AM POWERLESS. however, I am not powerless over whether choosing to pick up the first one.

notice my use of the word choice. Once I'm detoxed and the poison has left my mind and body, I do have a choice whether to pick up the phone and call a fellow alcoholic or to pick up the drink/needle. On the contrary, when I'm shaking, sweating with blood pressure&pulse in the 200's , waiting for the liquor store to open @9AM on a wednesday in line with the homeless people or going crazy cuz the dopeman will just "be a couple of more hours dude stop blowing up my phone!" while my muscles feel like somebody is lighting them on fire from the inside I DONT have much of a choice. I'm gonna do what I gotta do to get my fix, even if it means harming my family or my friends, not to mention random people!

I hope that kind of explains how sick of an addict I actually am. I have a disease ladies and gentlemen and suboxone combined with meetings and psycotherapy are working wonders for me right now! I am really happy and have never felt better in a decade or had as much clean time as I do now!!

good luck!!!

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 07, 2012 2:00 am 
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I believed that about myself as well man ...

But for me, the idea that once I pick up I lose all control nearly killed me. Because there were a few times when I did use despite going to a meeting a day and working the steps. And because I believed that I lost all control, I thought "fuckit, I'm dead now anyway" and I binged HARD. It was a self-fulfilling prophecy like.

Since I left the rooms, there were times when I used as well. Only most of them I DID manage to pull up before I got out of control. Once of those times I did only use once. I'll admit that it is very difficult to keep one's lapse from turning into a relapse. But it's not impossible.

But because I believed there was no such thing as a lapse, whenever I did pickup, I would lose everything I'd gained in my period of recovery within a couple of weeks.

Since leaving the rooms I've discovered that, for me, those rules do not apply.

Also, the first rehab I went to followed the AA Big Book's idea of addiction - ie that we are powerless over a physical allergy as well as the mental obsession. That once we pick up, we lose all control. But even more importantly, that as addicts we are powerless over our mental obsession as well, that we are powerless over our desire to pick up. We have no choice at all, and the only thing that can prevent us to pick up as addicts is our higher-power. As addicts we are self-destructive creatures who want to kill ourselves with drugs, and only by working God's will, not our own, can we be saved from ourselves. That was the view my first 12-step mentor instilled in me. It was quite a hardcore quasi-religious way of working things.

And being a 'steps nazi', I thought anyone who worked a program less strict than this was not working the steps. What can I say? That was the program I was taught to believe in.

I'm very glad to not believe in that form of recovery anymore. It was wayyy to rigid. Recovery is about freedom IMO, not following rules.


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 07, 2012 2:30 pm 
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tearjerker you have the freedom to believe in any definition of addiction and the freedom to partake in any program of recovery that works for you!!! some people need the rigidity because it's quite simple (for complicated people lol) to follow and thorough, with no wigglerooom for rationalizing. you know what i mean?! heck, at some meetings, the discussion and analysis of recovery that we are participating in right now through this thread would be considered heresy! those meetings, I must admit are a little hardcore for my taste lol.

i got a question for you as well:
lapse = relapse ??

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