It is currently Sat Aug 19, 2017 2:54 pm



All times are UTC - 5 hours [ DST ]


Our Sponsors





Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 18 posts ] 
Author Message
PostPosted: Sun Feb 12, 2012 4:44 pm 
Offline
One Month or More
One Month or More
User avatar

Joined: Mon Dec 05, 2011 12:54 am
Posts: 35
I was reading through some of the other boards on this site, and came across one where someone mentioned that at lower doses, bupe loses that long half life it's known to have. I was hoping someone on here could clarify this. I only ask because a few weeks ago, when I thought I really needed to quit, I stopped for 3 full days. By the end of the third day, I received some terrible news, and my sub was right there, so it was almost too easy to just give up and start taking it again. But at the end of that third day, at about 72 hours or so since my last dose, I wasn't really feeling anything...in fact I went to the gym, to try to take my mind off of it, and drove around town just to stay busy. But I had barely any symptoms...maybe very slight chills/sweats, slight RLS, but nothing that kept me up at night...I was getting about 4-5 hours of sleep a night. My dose has always been less than 1mg. sometimes i drop down to about .3-.5, sometimes I take closer to 1. But I have never gone over one.

SOOO, my thinking back then was that the half life of sub was so long, that I probably hadn't started the WD's yet, and that's why I was feeling ok at day 3. But then I read this thread and it makes me wonder...was I actually just lucky? With my low dose and relatively short length of use (about 2 months) did I avoid serious WD's?

Here's the thread I read that in, btw.

http://suboxforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=5234


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Feb 12, 2012 5:25 pm 
Offline
6 Months or More
6 Months or More
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jan 05, 2012 3:53 am
Posts: 223
I am not a doctor but what my understanding is on half-life is that it is the time that goes by for any given substance for half of it gone. for example, if drug A's half-life is 24 hours and someone took 10mgs, then after 24 hours 5 mgs remains and after another 24 hours 2.5 mgs is left. For buprenorphine the half-life is about 37 hours or so. For the dose you are taking, personally, I am very surprised that it has such drastic effects on you. I think there is some sort mental attachment to taking a drug for the purpose suboxone serves which I experience and you may have in the scenario you described. I don't think it matters what dose you take the half-life will still be the same because it is still the same molecule.

I hope this helps you, but it would be a good idea to refer to your doctor for a more accurate approach on the factors you listed in your situation.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Feb 12, 2012 5:47 pm 
Offline
One Month or More
One Month or More
User avatar

Joined: Mon Dec 05, 2011 12:54 am
Posts: 35
Thank you for the response. I appreciate your information, and I don't mean to be rude or anything but I already know what a half life is. My question is if at lower doses, the half life changes...that's the impression I got from that other thread I posted.

Like when I quit for 3 days, I was thinking about the long half life, and figured I still hadn't started WD's yet, but after reading that the half life is shorter on low doses, I realize now that I probably just wasn't in WD, and it was pretty much completely out of my system. But this is what I'm not sure of, and was hoping to have clarified.


Top
 Profile  
 
Our Sponsors
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Feb 12, 2012 6:56 pm 
Gday SlashNaxl
Fireman is correct, the half-life DOES NOT change with smaller doses, its still approx 37 hours. How ever, at very low doses, like your on < 1mg, you are ALWAYS below the ceiling level (4 - 6 mg's) which is the point where all your receptors are flooded with buprenorphine, so as time passes, you can possibly feel the blood level of Buprenorphine getting lower and lower, thus the recommendation to take multiple doses through the day. At a dose of say 16 mg's that wouldn't be necessary because even though the blood level of Bupe is gradually getting lower (as per the 37 hour half life) your always going to be over the ceiling and your receptors will always be flooded. Some people only dose once every second or third day because of this "stacking" effect.
So yeah, in your case (low dose and only 2 months on sub), you could qualify for a "Get out of Jail Free" Card. Your blood levels after three days would have been really really low and way way below the ceiling level.
The important question though is... Are you absolutely sure your ready to stop taking Sub?
Cheers,
Subie


Top
  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Feb 12, 2012 7:37 pm 
Offline
One Month or More
One Month or More
User avatar

Joined: Mon Dec 05, 2011 12:54 am
Posts: 35
Honestly, my only goal is to make sure I am not physically dependent on it. I want to be able to quit with no physical withdrawals, so if something happens and I can't get any more, I wont be in for a nasty withdrawal.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Feb 12, 2012 7:39 pm 
Offline
Power Poster
Power Poster

Joined: Thu Jun 30, 2011 1:49 am
Posts: 44
yeah, i didn't feel any symptoms until after day 5 i made it to day 7 and realized I wasn't ready to stop just yet...


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Feb 12, 2012 7:56 pm 
Offline
One Month or More
One Month or More
User avatar

Joined: Mon Dec 05, 2011 12:54 am
Posts: 35
what dose were you on? and for how long?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Feb 12, 2012 8:22 pm 
Offline
Average Poster
Average Poster

Joined: Sat Feb 11, 2012 2:09 pm
Posts: 18
slashNaxl wrote:
Thank you for the response. I appreciate your information, and I don't mean to be rude or anything but I already know what a half life is. My question is if at lower doses, the half life changes...that's the impression I got from that other thread I posted.


No half life never changes


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Feb 12, 2012 8:55 pm 
Offline
Power Poster
Power Poster

Joined: Thu Jun 30, 2011 1:49 am
Posts: 44
slashNaxl wrote:
what dose were you on? and for how long?


i jumped at round 0.5mg

i started at 12mg in june then tapered down to 4mg within 3 weeks then slowly got down to 2 mg and slowly went to .5mg or .25mg twice a day then i jumped off had zero issues until day 5 mostly stomach issues it got better after day 7, but the cravings started up BIG time..so i decided I rather continue on subs for while longer.


Top
 Profile  
 
   
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Feb 12, 2012 9:12 pm 
Offline
Long Time Member
Long Time Member
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jul 15, 2010 5:08 am
Posts: 1503
This is half true. Bupe has an average half life of 37 hours. However actual half life does change based on dose.

With OP's lack of withdrawals at 3 days, it may have more to do with your relatively small dose. You didn't exceed 1mg ever, which says something about your level of overall dependence to opioids.

In some parts of the world, double dosing of buprenorphine is permitted. They did this in Australia and the UK for quite some time, but it's less popular now because the increase in duration was too unreliable, and not as linear in practice as it was in theory. But it's still legally allowed and some people do it.

Basically the person first finds their stabilisation dose. Then, if they want to trial it, they can double that dose and attempt dosing every 2 days instead of every day. Some people even managed to do triple dosing, and have a dose every three days, though this is rare.

It's been done less and less however because it's unpredictable with different rates of metabolism. However, once we reach our own ceiling dose, increasing the dose beyond that can increase the half-life.

Buprenorphine has a mean (or average) half life of 37 hours. But the actual half life, dependent on dose & metabolism, is between 20 and 70! hours. Where we sit on that scale is for the most part dose dependent.

This is from a very old document from when Subutex was first prescribed in Oz for heroin addiction in 2002.

Quote:
Frequency of dosing

The dose dispensed for a 48-hour period is initially double the normal daily (24 hour) buprenorphine dose, and
the dose for three-times-a-week dosing is three times the normal 24-hour dose, to a maximum of 32mg/day.
While doses higher than 32mg have been used, the registration of buprenorphine in Australia specifies a
maximum dose of 32mg.

If a patient cannot be stabilized on reduced frequency dosing regimes due to the onset of withdrawal, cravings,
side effects or features of intoxication, they should be returned to a more frequent dosing regime. It is
expected that less than half of patients will prefer supervised alternate day dispensing to daily supervised
dispensing.


Back when Suboxone wasn't around, and everyone was on Subutex, I tried double dosing. I could manage to get by on it, but it really wasn't comfortable. Given my fast metabolism, now I know I actually need twice-daily dosing.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Feb 12, 2012 10:13 pm 
tearj3rker wrote:

In some parts of the world, double dosing of buprenorphine is permitted. They did this in Australia and the UK for quite some time, but it's less popular now because the increase in duration was too unreliable, and not as linear in practice as it was in theory. But it's still legally allowed and some people do it.



Thats interesting tearj3rker,
Do you have any documentation re: double dosing being unreliable? My sub doc has a passion for it and is forever trying to get me to give it a go. She's really starting to piss me off. I find it hard enough to stick to once a day dosing. Maybe things are done differently up here in Northern New South Wales. Even whilst I was in Rehab during induction the head doctor and nurses "sighed" when I got over 16 mg's saying "damn....to bad, you won't be able to double dose" because of the 32mg daily max dose. I really felt as though I was missing out on something special.
Thanks for the info
Subie


Top
  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Feb 12, 2012 10:51 pm 
Offline
One Month or More
One Month or More
User avatar

Joined: Mon Dec 05, 2011 12:54 am
Posts: 35
tearj3rker,

first off thanks for the reply, you're always able to contribute valuable information, and it's much appreciated. I know when you saw that I made this thread you probably sighed and said to yourself "oh brother...this guy again with his WD questions" hahah. :wink: And yes I've always kept my doses under 1mg per day. Usually it's two .5mg doses per day. 1 in the morning, 1 afternoon. But what I was wondering above all else is if when I made it to day 3/4, was at my bodies peak WD period, or had I not even started to WD yet. And, judging by what I've read, I'm fairly convinced that I was at least at MY peak. I know it's different for everyone, based on dose, frequency of dosing, weight, metabolism, duration of use, etc. etc. And my levels in each of those categories is on the short end of the spectrum.

Knowing this, I'm both disappointed in myself, but also relieved. I'm disappointed because knowing that, had I not picked it back up on day 4, I would be completely fine by now. I am relieved, though, because now I know that I am able to avoid any real WD's with my dose, and other factors. Thanks again for contributing to my thread. You've always been a great help. :)


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Feb 13, 2012 12:28 am 
Offline
Long Time Member
Long Time Member
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jul 15, 2010 5:08 am
Posts: 1503
subie wrote:
Thats interesting tearj3rker,
Do you have any documentation re: double dosing being unreliable? My sub doc has a passion for it and is forever trying to get me to give it a go. She's really starting to piss me off. I find it hard enough to stick to once a day dosing. Maybe things are done differently up here in Northern New South Wales. Even whilst I was in Rehab during induction the head doctor and nurses "sighed" when I got over 16 mg's saying "damn....to bad, you won't be able to double dose" because of the 32mg daily max dose. I really felt as though I was missing out on something special.
Thanks for the info
Subie


I was told about it from two prescribing doctors and a pharmacist. It seems to be the general opinion down here, now they've been prescribing it for a few years.

It may be more of a Victoria thing. I read somewhere that it's more common down here for people to be prescribed twice daily dosing. ie I go to the pharmacy and get 6mg there, and 6mg for the evening. Maybe there's more a trend here for increased dosing.

I remember when Subutex first came out, one of its supposed benefits over methadone was that it permitted double dosing. Every pharmacist and doctor kept saying Subutex was better than done because people only had to go in every two days. A lot of people were doing it too. Yet I wonder why hardly anyone still does it down here? Apparently it's unheard of in America.

I tried the double dosing thing and it really isn't what it's cracked up to be. It might sound convenient, but twice the dose also means twice the side-effects. It was kinda like feeling one day a bit stoned and the next day craving, at least that was my experience. One day I had a spike in my bupe levels, the next day it wasn't enough. It might work for those with slower metabolisms though.


Top
 Profile  
 
   
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Feb 13, 2012 4:30 am 
Offline
Long Time Member
Long Time Member
User avatar

Joined: Wed Dec 28, 2011 8:47 am
Posts: 938
Location: Southeastern US (Alabama)
Double dosing wouldn't work, I don't think for me...because my Suboxone is also used for pain management, like last week when I had 5 tooth extractions in ONE day...

If I would've tried double-dosing, then it's likely the two days I spent unable to talk would've also been spent crying...or one day feeling "ok" above the ceiling, and one day curled up in the fetal position in tears.

I gotta admit, having that done last week was the most intense pain I have faced since being on Suboxone..even though I had an extraction last year...it wasn't THAT intense of a pain (multiply one extraction times 5 and I guess that's the reason why)...

But I didn't crave using anything opiate-related...even though I had some pretty intense pain..I still remained steadfast in keeping away from opiates...and happy to say that 2 days after my extractions -- during the worst of the pain, I had my Suboxone appointment and GLADLY gave my UA like normal...because there was nothing in my system.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Feb 14, 2012 7:40 pm 
Offline
One Month or More
One Month or More
User avatar

Joined: Mon Dec 05, 2011 12:54 am
Posts: 35
well, to update, I'm almost at 48 hours since taking any (Sunday night) and I feel alright...not 100% but nothing unbearable...A few watery eyes/yawn fits and some chiils, but this is it. No depression, Slept fine last night, etc. Just those symptoms I listed, which only happened once or twice today, for a total of about 3 minutes.

I'm not sure if this is the beginning middle or end though...That's what's frustrating. If I took 1mg a day for a week, would that be something like 3 or 4 mgs "built up" in in my system?? I wish I knew how half lives worked, when compounded...I'd like to think that by 48 hours, I'm close to have nothing left in me.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Feb 14, 2012 8:43 pm 
Offline
Long Time Member
Long Time Member
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jul 15, 2010 5:08 am
Posts: 1503
Congrats on your lack of withdrawal thus far. Honestly, I think you will find any withdrawal you have tolerable, if anything because of your relatively low dosing.

With the whole half-lives thing it's really complicated and in-depth. The reason I think it's a bit pointless trying to analyze it ourselves is because it varies a bit between individuals as well, and some other medications can also alter rate of metabolism.

If you take it one day at a time, it'll be over before you know it.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Feb 14, 2012 9:05 pm 
Offline
One Month or More
One Month or More
User avatar

Joined: Mon Dec 05, 2011 12:54 am
Posts: 35
Thanks tearj3rker, you're right it is a really complicated process and kind of pointless, since there's no way of really knowing what's going on inside your body. When I went to bed last night, I planned on making a chart and coming up with a formula to get as exact numbers as I could...yeah, needless to say I didn't end up doing it. Maybe one of these days...lol.

Anyway, yeah, one day at a time. I just took a hot shower and since getting out, I feel great...pretty much 100% normal...but we'll see as the night goes on. Day 3 will be very telling...If I feel better than today, I'll know it's almost over... If I feel a little worse, then I'll know I'm in for about a week of some very mild WD's. That's the important thing I want people to know...if you stay under 1mg per day, your WD's will not be unbearable...I know a lot of it can be attributed to the fact that I only used sub for a couple of months, but still...sub really is a miracle...I don't even listen to what the naysayers say anymore, this drug is awesome.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Feb 16, 2012 8:05 pm 
Offline
One Month or More
One Month or More
User avatar

Joined: Mon Dec 05, 2011 12:54 am
Posts: 35
Wanted to post yesterday, but it was very similar to the previous day...so here I am now at day 4, and I think I'm turning the corner. The only lingering WD symptom is the damn coldness/chills. That's been getting better, I think, over the past day or so...but it's hard to tell...it kind of comes in waves...I'll feel fine for a few hours, then suddenly I'll feel clammy, cold, uncomfortable for about an hour or so, then it goes away...

Sleeping last night was ok, except I woke up at 3am with terrible leg pains...they just ached so bad that I couldn't get back to sleep...I was breakdancing in bed for about an hour until I fell back asleep til I had to get up for work at 6.

The best thing I can say is I have had pretty much zero depression, and no diarrhea...not sure how I avoided those things, but I have.


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 18 posts ] 

All times are UTC - 5 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Our Sponsors
Suboxone Forum latest topics RSS feed Subscribe to the entire forum
 

 

 
Fond Du Lac Psychiatry
Dr. Jeffrey Junig, M.D., Ph.D.

  • Board Certified Psychiatrist
  • Asst Clinical Professor, Medical College of Wisconsin

Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group