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PostPosted: Sun Mar 28, 2010 10:29 pm 
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Hey all. I have been reading for a while, but just decided to join and get some help. I will get straight to the point.

I have been clean/sober for 7 months before I slipped up about two weeks ago. I used 30-60mg of oxycodone or 30mg oxymorphone(Opana) every day for about 8 days, snorting them each time. I then came to my senses, and more or less realized for the first time I really can’t control my using at all. I then waited two days then bought an 8mg suboxone. I used 4mg sublingually on day one, then snorted 2mg on day two, and 1mg on day three and four. I have never used this short of a run so I’m not really sure what to expect as far as withdrawals go. It has been 3 days since my last sub dose and I’m starting to feel WDs come on. The depression, bone aches, headaches, chills and irritability. I have 6mg of suboxone left, but really do not want to use it, I want to quit again. Hopefully for good.

I know that is a short amount of time but after I got clean I had been using for opiates very heavily for 4-5 years straight. I was able to get a degree in Biochemistry and a minor in pharmacology, graduated with honors, so I know that aspect of the drug. I just don’t know what its like to quit after such a short run, b/c I had always used so long. I quit cold turkey twice, from H and suboxone. Both times were hell, suboxone was the worst, but that was stopping 8mg a day for 3 months. I didn’t know but about subs at the time. I do now, just am not sure how bad it will be after a week of using then tapering on one sub.

My past withdrawal experiences have left me petrified. I was clean for 7 months like I said and was just starting to feel like a normal person again, yea it took that long. I don’t want to start again; I liked having my life back. I’m a little discouraged right now and just need to know what kind of WD symptoms Im going to be faced with. Thanks everyone!


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 28, 2010 10:54 pm 
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Hi Fudmoe! I am going to give you a GUESS because I have never used that short of a time and taken sub short term either. I could be wrong, but I doubt many people on here have as I doubt they would hang around this forum. BUT....you never know either and there are some pretty smart people around here.

My GUESS is that the PAWS won't be so bad since you were out of active addiction for 7 months. I am sorry to hear you had a slip, but glag to hear it was short and it sounds like you are determined to get back on track so that is great. In terms of physical, the sub may actually prolong the physical a little bit because of the half life, but also ought to make the physical far less intense. It is day 3 and you have depression, bone aches, headaches, chills and irritability. My guess is that this is probably about where it will remain then although you may hit some restless leg and insomnia. Is this better or worse than the day 3 you had coming of 8mg? As a guess with limited information on your past experience, you are probably looking at about 7-9 days total and it will start getting better on or about day five. Again...a guess. I say this because right now it doesn't sound too severe and on day three if it was going to be long and ugly you would probaby feel a lot worse. You aren't coming off long term either.

I went off 12mg per day sub long term and still only missed 1/2 day of work. The worst of the physical was over in about
1-2 weeks and then it was minor physical all the way to week 6. As you know, that is far different.

I certainly hope someone has more knowledge on this than I do and can help you out a little. I wanted to post just in case because a lot of the time if people don't have an answer they won't post which is fine, but I didn't want you to feel ignored either. I haven't heard anyone on here mention this yet. There are a lot of people who don't post often but read however.

Good luck! I wish you the best!

Cherie


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 29, 2010 12:23 am 
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Thanks Jack,
Yea, I wouldn't expect too many people to have experience with that short of a sub taper, but maybe I can catch a few that have quit just after a week or two of using to see what it was like. I can not miss work. I just took 2 months off 7 months ago to go into an awesome inpatient rehab. It was the first time I had been clean longer than 5 days. Before I simply gave up because I could no longer handle the WDs. As everyone on here knows it feels like it will never end ,and your sane mind will never return. It took 5 months of being sober to actually start feeling normal. Anyone that thinks you are done with WDs in 3-5 days is wrong, it takes much longer for your body to heal. The worst is over in less than a week, but the rest takes much much longer.

Before going into rehab I had been using oxycodone for about 3 years reaching 210mg a day at my max, before I discovered heroin. It was even more downhill from there after using it for 2 years. I was a shell of a person, I was very close to the end of my rope, I tried quitting once and made it all of 2 days. I used suboxone for the first time about a year ago. It was wonderful. I was able to function and feel normal, the desire to use was taken away and I just continued to use it and feel like I could function. It was only a illusion though, and under medical supervision and done correctly I'm sure it is helpful for people, but every addict is certainly NOT a candidate. Its just a legal alternative for maintaining an opiate addiction.

I quit at 8mg a day after taking it 3-4 months, I can't remember since it was not prescribed to me, but it was quite some time. I had a H binge a week before quitting the sub cold turkey so I was experiencing WDs from both of them. I have been scarred for life. I will never forget the week of HELL on earth I went through. My family had caught me and were watching me, so I could not use. I was having to hold a lot of emotions back since they already though I was crazy/insane since they had no knowledge of using or WD's you go through. I was not "suicidal" but I did want to die just to get out of my body. I had such extreme anxiety there is not a word for it. I literally ran my head into a wall and knocked myself out just because I wanted it to stop, I couldn't take it anymore. I couldn't sleep for days or do anything, couldn't watch TV, nothing remotely took my mind off of it. I watch the second hand on a clock slowly tick by for days, no lie.

That is why I'm so afraid of WDs. I know I am stupid to even use because stopping means withdrawals, but that's why I have chosen to stop after a week. I don't want to have to go back to rehab, although being helped through WDs with benzos and clonidine was much much easier! I HIGHLY recommend going to rehab to get clean, do not try to do it yourself, you only end up using again or killing yourself. Very few people have ever quit by themselves and never picked up again. The ones that do are usually lying.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 29, 2010 9:16 am 
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Fudmoe,

Even once you get through your withdrawals this time, you may want to consider sticking around yourself. There are a couple things you have said that aren't very accurate such as suboxone being a legal way to maintain an active addiction. Use of suuboxone is not switching one drug for another and it is not "active addiction". Your definitions need some exploration in my opinion. I think after being in this inpatient rehab they have convinced you this as the "better way". They seem to have given you some false ideas. If you read some of Dr. Junig's posts and read about his "bias" you will see that this forum was created so that these false ideas wouldn't be perpetuated.

From reading some other posts you have made, you seem to understand that suboxone can be a great recovery tool. But when your chances of remaining free from active addiction without it are SO EXTREMELY LOW, then why is recovery without suboxone so much "better"?

I don't want to engage in any argument about it. I just think you are already in dangerous territory from your relapse and some of these ideas you have bought into could also be the ones that kill you.

Cherie


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 29, 2010 9:47 am 
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Your right, I have been taught that NA is the ONLY way to stay clean, and the rehab convinced my family of this as well. I consider myself a smart person and do think NA is a great way that has helped more people than any other program, but its not the only way.

To be completely honest with everyone I wish I could be on suboxone, but my family and wife would completely abandon me. She would leave me and Im not willing to lose her over suboxone, I can do it through NA its just going to be much harder till I get past the first year its going to take to get back to normal. Thinking NA is the ONLY way honestly pisses me off. Not that I don't think it works, because it did work for me it got me clean and kept me that way for 7 months, but in their eyes there is no other option. Im referencing my apology and explanation of my ideas below from another topic in case not everyone saw.

fudmoe wrote:
I'm truly sorry, I'm sure I have offended people with my harshness and I do apologize. Im in withdrawal after relapsing from 7 months sober and am grouchy and wish I was on subs myself. I do not think of myself any better than anyone on subs, I'm a opiate addict as well we are all in this boat together.
WhoDatNOLA, I would agree with you. I can not argue with that. I know you are not using suboxone to get high, I have never accused anyone of that. In truth if you wanted to get high suboxone would not be the first thing you ran and grabbed.

As far as terms go I don't want to be misunderstood, I do think people can find recovery while on suboxone, if your using it correctly it would be hard not to. I think that's the wonderful part of the drug. It is impossibly hard for many addicts to understand what their life has became in addiction and how living a train-wreck has become a part of everyday life.

In order for most people to have a taste of what normal is they would have to suffer through horrible WDs. If they can make it through that then they have 6months to a year of lingering PAWS and anxiety. This would make about 90% of anyone trying to recover relapse, and through in the crap life through at you and mess we have caused its a miracle if you can stay clean. Suboxone allows people to see this freedom from drugs, that they may never have been able to see. It allows hope they they can be normal when otherwise they would most likely give up and never try. My views are diffrent from most when it comes to its length of use under normal circumstances. All that is facts, the following is my opinion. I do not think this should be a standard/default treatment for opiate addicts. I do not think it should be a life long solution when it is used, I think it should be a tool to getting off opiates completely over time. The length of which obviously varies person to person.


I need info on how to talk to my family about suboxone.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 29, 2010 9:56 pm 
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Fudmoe,

I am so glad you came on here. I understand your concerns with your wife and family. Everyone's situation is different, but I will tell you a little about how my husband got on board because maybe you can get something from the experience. It will be a bit long. I wish I could just give you advice, but families are so unique that any "advice" I give probably wouldn't help anyways. If I tell you where I have been, you might be able to come up with something on your own.

I kept my addiction to OC secret from my husband. After a couple years of spending $3000 per month and taking 280mg of OC per day, and considering heroin, I found suboxone. I told my husband I was on suboxone when we had been together about 6 years and I was on sub about 2 months. We were in pre-marital counseling and it just kind of came out. We were to get married in about 4 months. He was ANGRY. He HATED me. He knew nothing about sub. I offered for him to meet with my doctor. I offered to cancel the wedding and write hand written cards to everyone apologizing and explaining it was my addiction causing the cancellation and that it had nothing to do with my husband, etc. etc. Luckily, we got married anyways and it was wonderful.

My husband is pretty cool. He has not used drugs. He does not share my problems. He was pretty understanding but he does NOT understand addiction except for watching intervention and Celebrity Rehab. He doesn't like conflict so he didn't bring up the sub much and didn't ask much about it. He did make comments off and on re:when would I get off it. He did mention it had been a while and it seemed a little too long. It was obvious he was starting to think I was just keeping my "drug replacement" and it was obvious he felt I was still getting high. Dr. Drew didn't help. There were a lot of pressures for me to get off sub, but this was by FAR the biggest even though he didn't say much. I KNEW.

2 1/2 years on subs and I quit off 12mg no taper. There were other factors involved some of which meant I couldn't go back on sub for at least 2 months due to surgeries. I found this forum after about 3 weeks off sub. I was struggling with PAWS and physical withdrawal. I knew NOTHING about sub. My doctor had told me there was no point to NA. Therapy wasn't reinforced. I was told I wouldn't have withdrawal from sub. So I was literally a mess when I got here. My husband found the forum trying to help me figure out how long I would feel this way. Actually, he found it at 7 days but I was too sick to get on for another week or two. I couldn't imagine typing anything or talking to people or ANYTHING. I do think full agonists are way worse but it was stil awful.

After I found this site and posted, people started explaining things to me. I learned I shouldn't feel bad for wanting to be on sub or considering it. I learned you need to be in some recovery program of some kind at the same time as the sub. I learned about the sub itself. I learned about pain and sub. I learned what PAWS was (I had no idea prior to that). I learned how long PAWS could last. I learned my chances of relapse without sub. One of the hardest parts was that I didn't trust my own thought process when it came to making decisions for myself. So when I started to think sub long term might be acceptable, a little voice in the back of my mind would say "that is because you just want a crutch" or "you just don't want to face life on life's terms", etc. I didn't necessarily trust any of these other addicts on here because they could just be in THEIR own addictions and making excuses for me because it would make them feel better. It took a while and it was a lot to figure out in a very short time.

As I learned things, I would give my husband facts. I would start with easy ones like "did you know the success rates with NA/AA alone are not as good as one would think?", or "did you know that when suboxone was first prescribed 70% of scripts were for short term use and today 70% are for long term use?". Some of the things he didn't like when I was on sub were that off and on I really lost my sex drive. I started isolating. I was sleeping a lot at the end. I would seek out information as to WHY that was the case and I would cite facts and other information about it and how other people were resolving those issues themselves. I would watch his reaction at first and try to engage in dialogue. I spent countless hours researching to find any GOOD reason not to take suboxone long term and I told him about my frustrations in not being able to find anything credible. Eventually, as I started to make up my mind on what I wanted to do, I asked him what he thought about me going back on it. Surprisingly, he had changed his mind about suboxone as I had changed my mind about it. He basically said he supported me if that is what I wanted to do.

I went back on it 2 weeks ago and I just asked him how he felt about it and he said "I don't think it impacts me". I asked him if he thought anything was different and he said "your sex drive has increased and you don't complain about your feet anymore". (It might be easier if you were female because then you could just quote something about expected increase sex drive on sub and your spouse would just tell you to go get a script ASAP :-). No seriously....I was HONEST with him about how I felt when I was in withdrawal. I was HONEST with him about my confusion. I expressed to him that I didn't trust my own mind and needed him to help me figure this one out. I told him about my fears of wasting my life. I told him everything and really asked for his help. We were kind of in it together and I think that made it a lot easier for him to handle. He felt like he had some control in the situation. I wasn't pushing. I was pulling him with me to some extent I guess.

I later told my mom and basically had the same open dialogue and gave her some of the same facts. Where have I heard this before...."everyone is entitled to their opinion but they are not entitled to their own facts". Facts are what they are. People can't argue with it. You would be surprised that when they realize it is YOUR life on the line and realize the stats at how willing they might be to accept the suboxone with certainty versus NA/AA without certainty.

If my husband hadn't agreed to it, I probably would have had to take him to counseling with me at some point. I don't care if my mom agreed or not. She is stuck with me anyways :-)

I hope that helps a little. I would love to hear your experience as you go through this or whatever else you choose to do.

*****Oh..and although I think it was nice of you to post the apology from the other post. I wasn't offended. I was concerned about you.

Take care!
Cherie


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 30, 2010 1:03 pm 
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Thanks for the response. I think right now I just want to have what little WD I have from a week of using to go away. I think I will be able to handle it this time. Right now I think I want subs as a easy way to get ride of these WDs but they shouldnt last too much longer. Im aleady half way through. That would be a different story if I had been using for months or years then tried to stop. The is no way I could do that again. I was experiencing PAWSs for about 6 months. It was terrible.

I will keep everyone updated. Thanks for all the help.


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