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PostPosted: Sat Nov 16, 2013 8:34 pm 
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Well I had the same sub doctor for the last 5 years...his attitude with me is that I should just take sub without worrying about when I get off and that I will know when I'm ready and I always thought that it made perfect sense and I realy felt good about it....up unti now...well because of my new insurance I had to switch doctors and my new sub doctor has completly turned my world upside down......he meets with me for the first time and asked if I wanted to get off suboxone one day, and I said of course I do. Then he asked for the second time that day how long I've been on suboxone and I said 5 years again....he just got quit like I dropped a load of bricks on him and he just kind of buried his face in his hands and let out a big sigh like he was irritated or disappointed or like pissed off at me. Then he just started telling me that I am basicaly past that point he said that people just don't come off suboxone after using it everyday for 5 years.....he says people have tried but that it just doesn't happen....he actualy thinks I should switch to methadone because suboxone is not safe for long term use and that he thinks I will be on O.M.T. For the rest of my life.........this is just so shocking to me, my last doctor said like I could stop whenever I wanted and that there would be minimal withdrawl....but this new doctor basicaly is telling me that I'm already passed the point of no return after 5 years of suboxone and that I need to switch to methadone because its not safe to just keep taking suboxone....this new doctor is much more well respected in the medical community and has much better credentials....I am at a loss for words.....what the fuck am I suppose to do here?


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 16, 2013 10:27 pm 
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I don't care how respected and credentialed your new doctor is. He can still be absolutely wrong about suboxone. We have several people on this forum who have maintained on sub for 5 years or more who have tapered off sub. The key is a long, slow taper.

There have been no long term studies about the safety of long term suboxone use. The doctor who runs this site keeps us very up to date about new research and he hasn't posted any new research based on long term studies. Any actual "evidence" that your new doctor has about the dangers of long term sub use must be purely anecdotal.

I would either switch doctors, or try to convince him that you would like to try a long, slow taper off sub. Then make a plan and follow it! There are lots and lots of taper stories here under Stopping Suboxone. There is also lots of support from other members who are tapering themselves, or understand how hard it is. We have information on the liquid taper method and we even have a member who made a template for cutting the sub films in furtherance of tapering.

I would refuse to go on methadone if suboxone has been working for you. I wish you the best! Please ask any questions you have.

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 16, 2013 11:13 pm 
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Has your time on subs been good?
Are you happy on it?
Has your life impoved? Some? Greatly?
If it were me, and i said yes to those, then id stay on suboxone anyway i had to.
New dr, old one and pay cash?whatever it would take. I dont know you at all,or what kind of recory tools you have, but i would not get this dr mess up my recovery if i wasnt ready to change...tbere are good docs an not so good docs..so..best of luck..raz..


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 16, 2013 11:16 pm 
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Reading this I have the same head-in-hands disappointment but it's directed towards your doctor. I've certainly run across prescribers in the buprenorphine world with similar views and attitudes. Are there ANY other options in your area? Even making a cash only option work? This Dr. could turn into a headache quickly..

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 17, 2013 1:09 am 
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What articles is he reading about long term Suboxone use being bad for a person?

I would write down the website for Talk Zone and give it to him. Tell him it is run by a doctor in the recovery field. He may then change his views. That is, if he ever does check this place out. The button is up above. Click on it and write down the URL for him. Can't hurt.

Welcome to the forum!

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 17, 2013 4:26 am 
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How can we say that Sub is OK for long term use? How many people in their 70's or 80's have we studied that have used it for twenty years or so?? None, it is too early and we are all guinea pigs. There was a time when every doctor thought Benzos were OK for for long term use and this went on for twenty years, but after years and years of seeing people with problems on long term Benzos, attitudes have changed. Sub has only been legal for opiate dependence treatment for about ten years in this country. One day they will look back on this and come to more solid conclusions but if it ends up being the wrong thing to do the only people who win are the drug companies.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 17, 2013 7:17 am 
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Where did anyone say that sub is OK for long term use? All we've said is that there haven't been any long term studies and, therefore, her doctor has no evidence that long term use is harmful. And don't forget that buprenorphine has been used in the UK since 1978, even though it wasn't approved for use in the US until about 10 years ago. That longer track record hasn't yielded any negative impacts of suboxone maintenance either.

I'm not saying that a long term study won't reveal some problems with suboxone maintenance. But in the absence of that research, and with the stakes of relapse including death from overdose, sub is probably the best alternative that opiate addicts have.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 17, 2013 11:49 am 
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Uriah.... one could make your point with any medication, I suppose... The argument about 'pharma companies winning' is convenient if one ignores the history of opioid dependence. Before 2003, people simply died-- or moved to a city with a methadone clinic. Now there is another option.

There are benefits to some medications. And until you figure out a way to invent a life-saving medication, you'll have to leave those profits to someone else. Coming up with ideas, getting the ideas to investors willing to take a risk on your idea, and spending millions of dollars in attorneys fees to navigate the regulatory process takes hard work. The medications that are manufactured did not come to them from some greedy stork, dropping profit opportunity from the sky. They WORKED for them-- and they deserve to make money for the risks they took. I have plenty of complaints about RB-- but the only hope we have for addiction is the profit incentive to find new meds. Alkermes is currently investing millions of dollars on a new antidepressant that MIGHT eventually help millions of people... or it might all be a waste of their money and time. I am glad they are there, taking the risk. The money they are spending to get through the regulatory process is real money, spent by stockholders, with the risk that it will be lost.

As for the image of someone making money off overpriced medications... if you truly believe that, BUY STOCK. Most pharma companies are publicly owned. That means that YOU can be THEM. Of course you would have to do what the current owners do (most current owners are retirement plans and pension funds)--- take a risk with your money. Open an etrade account and buy stock in RB; you might lose your money if generics continue to overtake Suboxone... or maybe their new injection will be approved and make money, and then YOU can share the reward. You will get to attend stockholder meetings, and vote on the level of reimbursement paid to the CEO. Pharma companies are just people with jobs-- not supernatural creatures.

As for long term safety of buprenorphine/naloxone, both have been in use for well over 30 years. The combination of naloxone with high-dose buprenorphine was used in Europe for decades before RB brought it to the US. When arguing that long-term use of buprenorphine might not be safe, you are completely missing the point-- which is 'safe compared to NOT taking buprenorphine.' If you can find a way to pull your life together without buprenorphine, then of course you shouldn't take it. But to argue that someone who has relapsed multiple times, who is injecting dirty liquid into his/her veins, is not 'safe' on buprenorphine? That's nonsense.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 17, 2013 8:51 pm 
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I knew I was posting my reply without enough thinking. I saw that coming. And I probably haven't done enough research on this reply but here goes anyway. I guess I don't see enough caution on long term use of Bup. I Don't see how you can expect an entirely normal and healthy life on Sub in the long run. I think this idea that you can take any drug for years and years and not have negative effects on your body such as sleep problems, weight problems, depression problems etc isn't realistic. Even if you had access to unlimited Opium and its friends it only works for so long before you start to turn into a vegetable. Cheap and legal Opium in China during the Opium war period turned 1/3 of Chinese into addicts who did very little but smoke more Opium.

30 years of Bup in the UK, was that for opiate dependence or pain? I think there is a difference. With long term pain control it can be someone in the later stages of a disease and you don't expect things to always end well so the negative effects of the pain meds are second to the disease. With dependence you expect the person to resume a normal kind of life with work and family.

I also see that Bup is better than a street life chasing drugs so I don't think we should stop it, I just wonder if the attitude of "stay on it as long as you want" without any incentive to get off the drug is not causing more harm in the long run. After awhile it seems people need more and more of other types of drug to find that normal state, sleep meds, depression meds, stimulant meds etc. I was on four or five meds in addition to Sub and after many, many years my body just couldn't take it. Of course everyone is different, so I am coming from a subjective view and may end up changing my mind again over time.

One of the problems with trying to gauge whether you are able to survive without this drug is you just can't quit it for a week or month or year and expect to be back to normal state of being. So how do you know if you are now in a stable or better place now and can survive without it? and when will you know? The longer you take Sub the harder it is to quit it. And perhaps the more damage it does.

And just for arguments sake one of the problems with our country is that are financial investments are too wrapped up in questionable things such as military, oil and drug companies. This clouds peoples judgements. Yes, it is true that without these investments in new drugs we may never solve some health problems but to not realize that there can be lots of damage done by many of these new drugs needs to be a concern. Perhaps one day in the distant future people will look back on all of this and thank us for being the guinea pigs that brought them a better life but we need to go into this with our eyes wide open and not blindly trust the drug companies.

I just think there needs to be more of an emphasis on helping people develop a plan to eventually stop Bup use. To plant in their minds that they need to develop a time frame so that they can mentally and physically prepare for the time when they are free from this cycle. Not to think that they are going to be eighty years old and still taking this stuff.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 18, 2013 3:16 pm 
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** Just a heads up, the original poster was banned. This member is a known troll who has stirred up many a dramas. Every time the story is completely different, but is always a thinly veiled attempt to get people freaked out about using suboxone. We'll leave the conversation up because people have made some very good points.

Just know that the OP is not coming back and the original story is fraudulent.


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