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PostPosted: Wed Aug 29, 2012 3:22 pm 
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Day 18 without opiates. Was on about 40 mgs percocet 7 months. Did subs for 17 days .66 to a taper of .25 day. Second day without subs and I have the normal withdrawal symptoms rls and anxiety,but the depression is awful and it seems to sometimes become worse after I run. Been running for 37 years to control anxiety and depression but now. I'm feelings worse after a run. Any help would be appreciated


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 29, 2012 10:10 pm 
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Beerman -

I am sorry to hear that you are depressed. I don't have the greatest experience on being without subs because I only lasted 4.5 days before going back to the shit and now I'm trying to stop them again. But I can tell you 3 things that helped my depression go down:

1) Blast your favorite music very, very loud. It will force its' way into your brain and can change your mood. I have Direct TV and played the Classic Rock station and Hair Rock station -- if you've got dish, these channels are good because there are no commercials. I sat in front of the TV for hours and somehow this was less depressing than plain TV. If you don't have tv, blast your favorite cd's constantly during the whole day.

2) Buy L-Tyrosine at The Vitamin Shoppe if you have one of those stores around you. They have them at Whole Foods too. Maybe they have it at CVS or Rite Aid or Walmart. I take two 500 mg capsules and those can make you happy. Take it in between meals. They really pumped me up and gave me hope.

3) Buy 5htp capsules also at The Vitamin Shoppe, or Whole Foods, or probably at CVS or Rite Aid. I take 100 mg at once and that helps both depression and anxiety. It can make you feel slightly tired, which is why it helps with anxiety. But not tired like a benzo. More like relaxation. It is converted into serotonin in your brain which is why it boosts your mood. Take it with food.

Congrats on the quick taper - you obviously have really good self-control. I know that running was harder for me because I had less strength, but after I took the L-Tyrosine I had more energy to have a better work-out. Maybe it will help. It is an essential amino acid.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 29, 2012 11:22 pm 
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I can't explain it but it also happened on day 1 and then today I was on my 2 nd runof the day and as soon as I stopped a wave of depression came on hard, but by an hour later I was feeling much betters and I actually had quite a good night except for rls that started around 9 pm. So all around it was a good day. I just have to remember that that feeling will go away. Going back to work also helped a lot today I took off day one. Thanks again for the suggestions


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 30, 2012 1:06 pm 
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it would make sense that exercising during the peak of withdrawal will make you depressed because your body is likely already so low on energy.

try experimenting, maybe walking will work better. Walking is far more gentle than running and is praised by many as the best exercise you can do.


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 31, 2012 2:42 am 
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Its the suboxone withdrawals which is causing the depression. Be rest assured. Antidepressants do not work on opiate related depression let alone suboxone depression.

Exercise is not going to fill those empty receptors that suboxone has destroyed. Even taking suboxone for couple of weeks to months is equivalent to 3 months of suboxone in your fatty cells. Now there is a chance you can recover in 3 or 4 months or so as you was not on suboxone that long, so thank your lucky stars you was never on suboxone that long. Just imagine how long and evil the depression will be for those who have been taking suboxone for over 3 months. So be glad you was not on it for that long. If you can wait 3 months ro so for some of the depression to lift then that that'll be a massive achievement, at least its likely not to going to stay for the long term or permanently if you was on suboxone any longer.


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 31, 2012 4:13 am 
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I posted a response to this and it didn't seem to get through, so will try again.

You are like the 3rd or 4th person who has posted about post-Suboxone depression and PAWS being worsened by exercise.

I have a bit of a theory about why it might be, but it's kinda layman's neurochemical stuff so most likely wouldn't be correct. All I can say is that in the long run exercise does speed up the recovery process. BUT I highly suggest while you're fresh off Sub - ie in the first 6 months - be kind to yourself. Don't push yourself hard with exercise. While pushing yourself may speed up the recovery process, it may come at the expense of some short term discomfort / worsening of PAWS.

Why this can happen I really don't know. I had this idea that exercise stimulates the excretion of leftover norbupe / bupe that's been absorbed into your fatty cells, and the influx of trace amounts of buprenorphine may temporarily make your mu receptors to upregulate and thus worsen withdrawal for a lil while. While this makes it worse for a few hours or a day, it does speed up long term recovery because you're speeding up the excretion of leftover traces of bupe by exercising.

Another thing. If you are feeling suicidal, GET HELP. See a doctor. CBT, DBT, acceptance committment therapy... this stuff helps a lot. Also, anti-depressants DO help with PAWS related depression. But be careful. I have found that some types of anti-depressants, especially the stimulant / activating ones like the SNRI's and SSRI's cause me to relapse every time. For some reason I lose all behavioural "brakes" while I'm on them, and end up binging, and doing crime without giving a shit? Maybe they induce my bipolar. But that may be worth being aware of.

These days I find Avanza / Remeron (Mirtazapine) to be a really good anti-depressant that helps with sleep and doesn't cause me to go off the rails or relapse.

Also, be aware that it can take 18 months after Suboxone treatment for protein kinase C levels to return to normal. This is a protein kinase largely responsible for modulating levels of endogenous opioids. ie - it can take 18 months post-Suboxone for your brain to return to normal. Exercising may well likely speed up that process.

DON'T give UP yo.


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 31, 2012 11:50 am 
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When we get off of Suboxone, or any opiate, our brains are reeling from the sudden lack of "feel good chemicals" and our brains have to once again learn how to produce our own natural opiates AND in the right amounts AND at the right time.

I remember early on in my wd, I would have good moments, followed by bad moments.....all while just sitting on the couch. A lot of us call this the rollercoaster effect. Again, I believe it was my brain trying to once again figure how in the hell it was supposed to do its job.

So, after saying all that, I think what's been going on with your depression hitting after your exercise is this....while your exercising, you're releasing natural opiates (endorphins) and your brain loves it, but when you stop, that endorphin level plummets and your brain doesn't react quickly enough to pump more into your system because it's still trying to figure how to do its job properly.

What I would do if I were you is to take it easy. Do light work-outs. Don't get your natural endorphin level too high, that way when you stop, there won't be such a huge drop off. Over time, you can increase the intensity and duration of your work-outs as your brain adapts.

Think of people who have sustained a physical injury. They're instructed to rehab that injury very gingerly at first, then as time goes by, they're allowed to work that injury harder and harder until full mobility or use is restored. For all intents and purposes, we've kinda injured our brain while on opiates and we need to rehab that sucker properly.

Like TeeJay, I'm no doctor, I'm no professional.....I'm just giving you my opinion of what may be happening.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 31, 2012 1:29 pm 
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*edit


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 31, 2012 1:59 pm 
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[font=Comic Sans MS]Hi Beerman, I've got a friend staying with me from out of town so I haven't had much free time to read much on the forum. I just came across this post, and I am so sorry to read that you are feeling the way that you are. I unfortunately don't know what to tell you. I kinda agree with teejays take on it, though hes right in saying that it is hard to prove. But it makes sense.

I just wanted to let you know that you do have support on here. Try to ignore the negative people, it's pretty obvious who they are. He only seems to drop a very short negative comment here and there. He is only on a smear campaign, nothing more. I hope that you do start to feel better soon, and please keep us posted as to your progress. I f you can keep yourself busy, that would be a litlle better I like to think.

Anyway, good luck, and I hope you feel better soon.[/font]

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 31, 2012 6:59 pm 
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Opiates which do not include suboxone give you less depression if any compared to suboxone. The difference is suboxone is strong, its sticky and it lingers on to the receptors for a while. This s one of the reason depression is so common and brutal post-suboxone.


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 31, 2012 7:48 pm 
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hessler wrote:
Opiates which do not include suboxone give you less depression if any compared to suboxone.


You just proved you have no clue about opiates. You are full of crap hessler, go away. Stop trolling this forum.

Less depression if any????? Really???

all opiate withdrawal will produce pretty devestating depression and for quite a while. Speaking from my experience and almost every addict I know.

-gb


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 31, 2012 9:43 pm 
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Hessler,

When I first tried to quit opiates, I was quitting a 4 pill a day habit. 4 pills of Hydrocodone that is. I made it 30 days and I absolutely could not take the CRUSHING depression.

Fast forward several years. I had been on Suboxone for 3 years and averaged about 16mg per day. I only tapered down to about 8mg before I jumped and the thing I was terrified most of was the depression.....but it never materialized. At worst, I had mild depression.....NOTHING compared to the crushing depression I felt getting off of 4 pills a day of Hydrocodone.

I've posted responses to several of your posts, but you magically always seem to miss or ignore my words, I wonder why? I've been off of Suboxone for over 2 years now and I'm doing just fine, thank you.

I know a lot of what you post is your opinion, but I'm here to tell you that your opinion is CRAP. You mentioned in another post that you've studied Suboxone for ten years, but you can barely put a coherent sentence together....so I wouldn't put too much stock in your studies and I hope no one else does either. Also, you had mentioned in an earlier post that studies show that Suboxone turns you into a ghost......A GHOST!!!! What kind of fucking studies are you reading?? I've never read ANY scientific study that says anything, other than death, turns people into ghosts!!

Why don't you tell us all the truth. I'm betting you recently got off of Suboxone and that you're pissed as hell because you're having wd. We've had many, many members come through here who say the same things you say and it ends up they all are recent Suboxone quitters who are in wd and are mad as hell. I used to be one of those people, but I had the God given grace to keep my mouth shut and read this forum first, then, after pulling my head out of my ass, I finally came to realize that for the first time in my life, I was off all drugs and I had Suboxone to thank for that. Was my wd pretty harsh, fuck yeah, I jumped off 5mg to 8mg, but was it worth it, ABSO-FUCKING-LUTELY!!

Oh Yeah, here's a few stats of my own for ya:

DoaQ---off Suboxone for 3 years, doing just fine.

Bronzebeta---off Suboxone for years, doing just fine.

Laddertipper---off Suboxone for 1 year, doing good.

hawker---off Suboxone for 2 years, doing fine.

cbk1014---off Suboxone for 1 year, doing fine.

Brian_Tx---off Suboxone for 1 year, doing fine.

mg113---off Suboxone for over a year, doing fine.

RainRainGoAway---off Suboxone for over a year, doing fine.

Did most of these people have some kind of wd, well duh, yeah, Suboxone is an opiate....any opiate is gonna produce wd. Did all of these people get through their wd, yep.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 31, 2012 10:28 pm 
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Romeo about Hessler:

"I know a lot of what you post is your opinion, but I'm here to tell you that your opinion is CRAP. You mentioned in another post that you've studied Suboxone for ten years, but you can barely put a coherent sentence together....so I wouldn't put too much stock in your studies and I hope no one else does either. Also, you had mentioned in an earlier post that studies show that Suboxone turns you into a ghost......A GHOST!!!! What kind of fucking studies are you reading?? I've never read ANY scientific study that says anything, other than death, turns people into ghosts!! "

THANK YOU, ROMEO!!!!

Here's why I know you aren't a doctor, or a scientist, Hessler. Those two vocations require a lot of schooling. I'm not saying that you are going to be an expert in grammar, spelling, or writing by the time you go to med. school, but you, at least, have to be able to write a scholarly paper and read scientific studies. You may have had an interest in suboxone for the last 10 years, but true research does not consist of anecdotal evidence from former sub users and opinions you've read on various boards. You seem to be more willing lately to admit that these are opinions of yours, but are now saying that facts do not have to be backed up by evidence, but can be backed up by your opinions! That's an outrageous statement.

But I'll tell you the real reason that people don't like you trolling around on this site. You are on such an anti-suboxone mission that you don't care about connecting with any of the people here. Instead, you belittle their progress, you act as if only your opinion and experience matter, and you're not sorry for it! You will never "win friends and influence people" here because of your seeming inability to empathize with people.

So, Hessler, let me sum up:

1. You don't write like someone who is educated, but you try to pass yourself off as a researcher.
2. You either don't know how, or don't bother to connect with people on a personal level. Until you do that, no one will listen to you.

Amy

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 Post subject: Beerman
PostPosted: Sat Sep 01, 2012 1:09 am 
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Hey Beerman, hope it's getting better for you.
Depression associated with opiate addiction gets deeper every time you relapse. Suicide unfortunatley has a hidden frequency rate. Getting help and learning how to cope with-out pills is as essential as the physical recovery. right now.

If these thoughts are creeping over time or are sudden is very important, call or see some one.
Good Luck


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 08, 2012 9:55 pm 
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I was almost done my 3rd day and was feeling stronger,Unfortunately I didn't want to get together with my family for labor day feeling shitty, so my friend offered another 2mg sub and I used it for 8 days .25 a day. I regretted but vowed to get back on track so now I'm on day three again and the withdrawals seem to be less sever . Thie first time was my first attempt at withdrawal from sub and I did not know what to expect. I am much better prepared for this attempt and am very confident I will succeed this time. Depression has also been less sever so that's a blessing. I'm going back down the shore Sunday after work and ride my jet ski, jumping swells in the inlet always take my mind off everything except landing. Thanks again for all your help. I' m going to experiment with a nuetracutical called anatobloc it's mostly for inflammation but Iwas using it before my percocet usage and had good results for pain and mood. The company is conducting research on many ailments and
Symptoms so you never know. I started taking it tonight and so far I do feel better but it's to early to make a judgement. I have a small 7000 share position but if it helps with withdrawal symptoms you guy will be the first to know and maybe we could all get rich for all the he'll we've put ourselves thru. I keep in touch.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 08, 2012 10:22 pm 
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haha that would be awesome! I hope it helps you! I totally understand that you didn't want to be sick in front of your family. That is what is so unfortunate about drug withdraws... we can't stop the rest of the world. And if you are like me, you must keep your withdraws a secret. That is so great that you have already stopped and are on day 3! Please update us tomorrow! What were your worst symptoms this time around? And could you be around others without them knowing what was going on?

Keep it up beerman, you are in it this far, you are definitely going to go all the way -- you're really already there! I mean, I think things can only go Up from here.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 09, 2012 2:47 am 
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Dont be too hard on yourself, You got back ON that horse, so to say, and THATS WHAT COUNTS!!!!

so keep on fightin, we are all right here with ya :wink: :wink: :wink:

Great job by the way, on doing what you set out to, (making it thru the family weekend) and then jumping agian!!!!

and have fun blastin' around on that jet ski!!!! sounds like fun to me!!! you deserve it.
Take good care of YOU this time.

Good luck
looking forward to hearing more from you :D

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 09, 2012 6:42 am 
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[font=Comic Sans MS]HI Beerman! You really sound like you are in good spirits, and that is great to hear!

So you gave in a little and you are back on track....that is all that matters. I agree with you too, that this time you
will know what to expect. Knowing what to expect makes a world of difference in my opinion. Coming off of subs, I
think everyone should intentionally withdrawal for 5 days only, and then do the big jump so they know what they
are in for! Hahahaha, just kidding. But it does help to know what to expect.

Glad the depression has lifted a bit for you. I was worried about the way you were sounding there for a little.

Jet skiing is absolutely awesome!!!!! I love it! Waverunners, jetskis, waterskiing, scuba diving...all of it! I love the water. Oceans, lakes, all of them! Your right that it totally takes the mind off of everything. Lucky for you it doesn't take your mind off the landing though... :shock: That could end bad if it did.

Well, come back and let me know how the jetskiing went. I love to read about people having fun with stuff like that! I'm so glad
to hear that you are doing well! Keep up the great work man![/font]

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 Post subject: Update
PostPosted: Sun Sep 09, 2012 11:59 am 
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It's around 12 noon in brigantine and I'm waiting for my wife to wake-up, she's at the borgata and is going to meet me at my brother in- laws . I feel fantastic this morning. I've had 2 runs so far and the depression if at all there is minor no symptoms whatsoever . Still had bad rls last night with very little sleep, but that will go with time. Again I thank everyone for their support good luck and God bless all.


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