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PostPosted: Mon Jun 14, 2010 9:18 am 
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Maybe I'm missing something, but I don't see what the big deal is. No one insulted anyone's religion or beliefs or lack thereof and I don't see why anyone would say you can't discuss those beliefs. That's never been a problem on the forum before. But like I said, maybe I'm missing something. I'm glad both of you have found something that works for you and your recovery. That's really the most important thing, isn't it? Oh, and Geoff, I don't think you (or anyone) opened up any can of worms, so don't worry about it. Just take care of yourself and keep us posted.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 14, 2010 1:52 pm 
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It's ok to discuss religious or spiritual beliefs and attitudes as long as the conversation remains respectful.

I didn't see the posts that Shelwoy edited, so I can't comment on that, but if you guys want to talk about different approaches to recovery, what works for you in terms of spiritual or religious beliefs, etc, go right ahead. Just keep in mind that these are sensitive topics that can provoke strong feelings so choose your words carefully.

And, as always, if you see a post that you think is crossing the line into personal attacks, please PM a moderator.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 14, 2010 3:28 pm 
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Donh, I too am left "scratching my head" and am quite puzzled lately. So no, not just you.

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 Post subject: When did things change
PostPosted: Tue Jun 15, 2010 7:31 am 
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So....what is going on? In the past a moderator would say I deleted or edited "so and so's" post becasue they said this or that or was offensive.......now it is generalities....someone....someone...who? Have we been invaded by some Ninja Hecklers that are jumping on here...saying something inappropriate and then we never know becasue we have been protected by such vile....? We are addicts who definitely have not lived the cleanest lives. I appreciate Diary clarifying for us that talking about our higher power, or god or no god is acceptable.

We have been a pretty tight community with newcomers finding their way here just like we did.....I would hate to see us turn into one of those WEB MD boards where we can't speak and share our true experiences.....for fear of violating rules that we are not aware of.......that is a statement not a debate by the way. I love this site and it is part of my recovery and addicts hate change.........this one does anyway. I hope we can all find a way to share respectfully and not worry that we would have to watch that we don't mention religion........

Jim


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 15, 2010 5:23 pm 
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I'd really like to never mention the religious aspect of my recovery anymore. That is for me. For MY recovery. It is how I roll. What I'd like to focus on now is the fact that I have completed two months of therapy with Suboxone and have started living life again. I feel sad some days, I am happy most days. I operate like I did before becoming addicted only with the caveat that during the past two years my body and mind changed and I no longer ever can use full opiate agonists again. I used to be a cucumber but at some point I became a pickle. I can never be a cucumber again. This development has prompted me to return to the gym and start working out again and just plain take my health seriously. There is a silver lining to my addiction. As junkie pointed out everything does have a purpose in God's world. I accept me for me and things as they are. I saw my sub doctor last week and he noticed a healthy look about me and it felt good to have someone notice positive change in my life. He said he trusted me enough because my urine was clean that he gave me a refill for two months worth. I am to taper to 4mg but will try to go to 3mg and then slowly down to 2mg in the coming two moths and see how things feel. It feels good to be moving in the right dirction again. Slowly the failth in who I am is coming back. I will take it slowly from here and count my blessings daily for the decision to try Suboxone. It unlocked the door to finding my way back home again.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 15, 2010 8:26 pm 
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It is pretty cool geoff when people start to see the change in you....I love seeing newcomers come into an AA meeting with thier ass falling off and 6 months later you see that sparkle back in their eye and their skin and complexion has changed....I have always loved that saying "Don't leave before the miracle happens." I am happy for you.

Jim


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 15, 2010 8:29 pm 
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I don't want to divert your thread away from the topics that you've brought up. I do, however, want to say that I am aware that multiple people have become concerned over the "censorship" (not only my term - theirs as well) that seems to be going on lately. In fact, this subject came up during our weekly meeting on Monday evening. I just wanted to say that several of the moderators, along with the site administrator, are aware of our concerns and appear to be taking steps to deal with them.

Thank you Sub Success for letting me know it's not only me who is confused. Others have done the same. As for you Goeff, if you "really like to never mention the religious aspect of my recovery anymore," that is certainly your choice. Just understand, that if you would like to not only mention but fully discuss the religious aspect of your recovery, there is absolutely nothing wrong with that. You can and should feel free to do so. In fact, you should feel free to discuss pretty much anything and everything that you would like to discuss here. The only exception is you should not discuss or debate the merits of using Suboxone as part of your recovery. You should also not make any personal attacks towards anyone else here. Beyond that, you can pretty much discuss whatever you would like to - and that includes religion.

It's great to hear that you are doing so well. Clearly the professionals involved in your recovery have noticed as well. You are well on your way to showing that recovery from opiate addition is indeed possible. Keep up the great work!


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 15, 2010 8:49 pm 
Geoff.....I could not resist a quick comment to your last post on this thread. If I may quote you:

"It feels good to be moving in the right direction again. Slowly the faith in who I am is coming back. I will take it slowly from here and count my blessings daily for the decision to try Suboxone. It unlocked the door to finding my way back home again."

Beautiful words!! Exactly the way I feel! I thank God for giving some smart person out there the wisdom and knowledge to create this wonderful drug to help treat opiate addiction! For me, it has done the same as it appears to be doing for you...unlocking and opening the door to finding my way back home......to me. To who I was before, and who I will be again. I have used this tool for almost 1 year now. I have worked my way down slowly to ~1mg/day and am feeling more and more like myself as the days pass. It has taken every bit of this year on Suboxone to dig my way out from under the shame and guilt of what I did in active addiction, to own the horrible choices that addiction led me to make, and to finally believe again that I am a worthy individual. Worthy of the grace and forgiveness of God and worthy to have another chance to build back the self-respect and the credibility that I had lost among others. I am grateful for this treatment option. But it alone is not the answer. We must have a solid, reliable education about what the disease of addiction is, how this medication works and a support system to lean on. We must also have some form of recovery going on that addresses the spirit....whether that involves Christianity, or whether it involves some other form of spiritual practices or just something that addresses that part of us that is not tangible, if you will. Personally, I am not ashamed to say that God has brought me through all this, and I don't think that should be construed as offensive. I certainly would take no offense in another saying "I have gotten myself through" or "Buddhism has gotten me through." I think someone else here said something like......whatever works this miracle transformation in a hopelessly addicted human being is worth talking about! Recovery from addiction is why we are here. If one thing I say or anyone else says here helps another get out from under this disease and get it into remission....then what negative thing can be said about that?
I'm thrilled for you Geoff...and everyone else who is getting better. I know I am! And I am grateful!


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 15, 2010 10:36 pm 
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So....what is going on? In the past a moderator would say I deleted or edited "so and so's" post becasue they said this or that or was offensive.......now it is generalities....someone....someone...who? Have we been invaded by some Ninja Hecklers that are jumping on here...saying something inappropriate and then we never know becasue we have been protected by such vile....? We are addicts who definitely have not lived the cleanest lives. I appreciate Diary clarifying for us that talking about our higher power, or god or no god is acceptable.

We have been a pretty tight community with newcomers finding their way here just like we did.....I would hate to see us turn into one of those WEB MD boards where we can't speak and share our true experiences.....for fear of violating rules that we are not aware of.......that is a statement not a debate by the way. I love this site and it is part of my recovery and addicts hate change.........this one does anyway. I hope we can all find a way to share respectfully and not worry that we would have to watch that we don't mention religion........


Again, I apologize for any confusion I may have caused. It is really discouraging to see that I have tried to correct what I did here and it keeps being thrown back. I am sorry- sorry I made a comment that was misunderstood, sorry I did not use the correct wording, sorry you all feel as if I was telling you what you can and cannot say. I was not trying to tell anyone what they can or cannot talk about. The rules are clear- I made a judgment call, and that is that. Again, I AM SORRY it was misunderstood. NOBODY is trying to change anything. It just seems that no matter what happens, if action is taken- if no action is taken= someone is going to be upset.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 16, 2010 12:55 pm 
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I frankly was not going to address this anymore and had moved on since it seems like the original statements had been corrected. However, since you brought it up again...

Shelwoy, I have to wonder if this "keeps being thrown back" at you because while you have apologized, you also are sort of blaming all of us for "misunderstanding" you. In fact, in your own words, you seem more sorry that we misunderstood you than anything else. Your exact words: "I am sorry- sorry I made a comment that was misunderstood" and "Again, I AM SORRY it was misunderstood" In other words, you are sorry that we misunderstood what you wrote and not sorry that what you wrote was incorrect, inaccurate and just plain wrong.

I really don't want to make more out of this than need be. I fully support moderators jumping in if there are personal attacks going on. If that is what happened here, I think you clearly did the right thing by removing any comments that were abusive or a personal attack. However, that is NOT what you wrote. What you wrote seems very different and actually very clear. I posted it previously but here it is again:

Before this goes any further, please realize that any posts relating to one's religious beliefs are off limits! Do not debate religion here. Thank you.

That doesn't say anything about abusive comments or personal attacks. It doesn't say anything about respecting others. It only says that ANY POSTS relating to RELIGIOUS BELIEFS are off limits. And then to make it even more clear you further state "DO NOT DEBATE RELIGION HERE." I don't know how much clearer that could be. I mean, what else could that mean? How on earth can we "misunderstand" what was written? Do not debate religion here means, well, do not debate religion here. There is no wiggle room left in such a statement. I have to say that it is sort of insulting to say that we all misunderstood what you wrote. Which part or which words did we "misunderstand"?

I really do appreciate the time that you and the other moderators spend here and the fact that most seem to take their jobs seriously and want to make this a great board for all of us. I have to say, however, that I see such a trend where people write or say something, but then don’t want to back it up or at least admit that what they said was incorrect, poorly written, in error, done with a huge lack of sleep – something, anything! Just please don’t expect me to believe that a statement like “Do not debate religion here” can mean anything other than what it does, and that I or anyone else are misunderstanding it.

I guess in the end, I'm sorry that I wrote what I did, would go a whole lot farther than I'm sorry you misunderstood what I wrote. We all make mistakes - me included! No one is immune from making a mistake. There is really no crime in making a mistake. The person who admits their mistake gets a huge amount of respect from me. The person that blames me for their mistake - not so much.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 16, 2010 5:57 pm 
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Ditto donh. Can not add anything more, but to express my thanks for your last reply. 100% clear to me. And I also want to thank our 'human' moderators who we don't expect to be perfect, but to occasionally say - oops - forgive me, I goofed. --LD


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 16, 2010 8:30 pm 
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I really do appreciate the time that you and the other moderators spend here and the fact that most seem to take their jobs seriously and want to make this a great board for all of us. I have to say, however, that I see such a trend where people write or say something, but then don’t want to back it up or at least admit that what they said was incorrect, poorly written, in error, done with a huge lack of sleep – something, anything! Just please don’t expect me to believe that a statement like “Do not debate religion here” can mean anything other than what it does, and that I or anyone else are misunderstanding it.

I guess in the end, I'm sorry that I wrote what I did, would go a whole lot farther than I'm sorry you misunderstood what I wrote. We all make mistakes - me included! No one is immune from making a mistake. There is really no crime in making a mistake. The person who admits their mistake gets a huge amount of respect from me. The person that blames me for their mistake - not so much.


I am sorry I said "Before this goes any further, please realize that any posts relating to one's religious beliefs are off limits! Do not debate religion here. Thank you." It was wrong. I WAS WRONG!!!!!!

It seems no matter what I do to rectify MY mistake- my choice of words are bad. Anyone is entitled to think what they want, but I am a very sincere person. I never expected to have my words so dissected, especially in an apology.
So I hope for the last time I can finally do this correctly and say I am responsible for what I said and I am sorry. I mean it with the greatest sincerity and I want everyone to know I will be much more careful of what I say in the future.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 16, 2010 9:05 pm 
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I think I liked the other apology where it didn't feel like you were yelling at us in big bold letters.......with exclamation points (many)...

But I accept your apology andI know it can be frustrating when you feel every word is being scrutinized......but it goes with being a Moderator I guess. Even at work....if your the boss people are going have a target on their back to make sure they follow the same rules they enforce.

Don't let this get you down....you offer alot to this site and we all make mistakes and this addict like most tend to get defensive when we get called out for things. As long as we all learn from them....like you said you will make sure you are more careful in the future. Thanks for responding and not just walking away........even if some will see your apology as angry.......I am way over it.....

Jim


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 17, 2010 3:30 am 
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I'm with ReRaise.

Way to man up. Thanks! Now let's shake it off & carry on...


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