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 Post subject: SCREWED UP!
PostPosted: Mon Feb 10, 2014 2:12 pm 
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This is not easy to say but the truth is the truth and Im scared shit. After 14 days or so off subs and starting to feel better I picked up my DOC. So over about a 6 day period I used 8mg Dilaudid Daily, last was last night at about 9pm. I do not want to continue this, I know where it leads, I just wish the obsession didn't sneak up on me, I have no control over it. I prayed, went to meeting, went to gym and still choose to listen to the voice of the devil.

So naturally Im lost now and don't know what to do.

I can:

Stop now, deal with whatever wd symptoms. I'm not sure what wd I'll have and from what I remember Dilaudid is very short acting. I feel ok right now but its prob to early.

Go to treatment where Ill be safe. I cant afford this and it would ruin a whole bunch of things but whatever.

Take subs for 3-5 days to get out of the habit and level off.


Any suggestions Im all ears. FML

Gemma


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 Post subject: Re: SCREWED UP!
PostPosted: Mon Feb 10, 2014 2:32 pm 
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Hey Todd,

Sorry to hear this kind of news, but it took courage to come forward and admit you have slipped. I congratulate you for taking that step.

Now, what to do about it huh? In my eyes it's a simple choice.

In MY own personal opinion I believe it's in your best interest to get back on the subs and remain there a good long while. How long depends on you, and how ready you truly are to attempt this without the help of the bupe. You may be one of those that benefits from a lifetime of bupe therapy, or close to it.

Taking sub for 3-5 days to "get out of the habit and level off" is not going to do it my friend. That, in my opinion, is a waste of time. Sure it would help for a few days, but it would be too easy to be right back to day one again. No judgement with that statement Todd, it's just that the odds are against you doing it that way. I think you know that.

You asked for suggestions and that is mine. I would get on the bupe as fast as possible and plan on remaining there with no thoughts of stopping it anytime soon. You have to be READY to get off and you just aren't there yet I'm afraid. Yes, I'm being blunt and I truly hope you understand that I really DO care, and want the best for you. This is your life we're talking about here. And YOU are so worth it.

Karen


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 Post subject: Re: SCREWED UP!
PostPosted: Mon Feb 10, 2014 2:51 pm 
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I absolutely welcome your suggestion. Its not like I'm in any mind frame to trust my own thinking anyway. I just hate the Bupe, it was killing me, just slowly. I will strongly consider though and appreciate your feedback!


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 Post subject: Re: SCREWED UP!
PostPosted: Mon Feb 10, 2014 3:19 pm 
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Like you I slipped when I first got off subs. I couldn't deal with the cravings! My doctor recommended i try the vivitrol shot. It is a monthly shot of naltrexone that completely blocks you ability to get high for 30 days. It also is very good at taking away any cravings. I do not think I could have stayed sober in the beginning without this shot! I go to meetings and everything but in the beginning nothing could help with my cravings. I have a few months now and I continue with the shot. It is so helpful because I don't have to even consider getting high and I can focus on more important things in my recovery. I suggest you go through the minor withdrawals from diladid and ask your doctor if your insurance covers the shot.


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 Post subject: Re: SCREWED UP!
PostPosted: Mon Feb 10, 2014 3:29 pm 
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Wow I didn't know they had such a shot. I will ask him for sure. I can believe this thing has me licked like this. I feel much better today though. Now that Ive talked and posted about it. I don't want to get anything today. Tomorrow is always there though


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 Post subject: Re: SCREWED UP!
PostPosted: Mon Feb 10, 2014 3:35 pm 
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The Naltrexone (vivitrol) shot may be a good path forward for you. If I'm not mistaken, the "shot" is pellets that are inserted under the skin. The pellets dissolve over time giving you a steady dose of Naltrexone.

If you're not interested in the shot, you could consider a low dose of Suboxone.

My 2nd slip sounds about like the one you just had. I stopped and did not suffer bad wd. There was some wd, it was just fairly minor.

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 Post subject: Re: SCREWED UP!
PostPosted: Mon Feb 10, 2014 8:35 pm 
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I think you've gotten two good suggestions. I'm actually in a very similar situation, having been clean for some time, come off Suboxone, relapsed for a week, and today is day two back on the Suboxone. My pride tells me that I shouldn't need it, but logic tells me otherwise. I'm taking things one day at a time right now.

I didn't even think about getting onto Vivitrol (I am familiar with it) because maintenance has always been what I've done. Something to think about.

My question to you is, how was the Suboxone slowly killing you? What makes you not want to get back onto it?

One other thing....you know and I know that a few days of a Sub taper is in no way, shape, or form enough time for your brain to even BEGIN to heal......something to think about.


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 Post subject: Re: SCREWED UP!
PostPosted: Mon Feb 10, 2014 8:54 pm 
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Sad to say this is very typical. I'd even have to venture a guess that's it's more common than not. So please don't feel like you are some kind of loser, weak, or sicker than average. You and what happened to you is unfortunately very common. So don't beat yourself up. The important learning lesson here is exactly that what happened to you is common after stopping Bup. It just is. So many people want to think that getting through withdrawal and PAWS is the hard part and the focus when not relapsing really is.

As for what now, I pretty much totally agree with Karen. Thinking you just need 3 to 5 days back on Bup to "stabilize" tells me you still don't get it. A week back on Bup won't do it. I'd say another couple months minimum - or more like 6 to 12 more months is the right course.

That said, vivitrol is also a consideration. However you must be clean of any opiates or you'll get precipitated withdrawal. I don't want to ruin anyone's placebo effect but typically vivitrol will not combat cravings. It may help mentally by your brain knowing you can't use. It may even give you some craving relief but not nearly like Bup does. Narcan simple blocks receptors. It does not stimulate them. Some studies show it even blocks natural endorphins. In one study subjects eating chocolate even had those feelings blocked by Narcan. Not the taste mind you but that warm, comfortable feeling some report from chocolate when compared to placebo was blocked or diminished. That said, vivitrol is very successfully used post Bup as a final step down transition. Thing is, are you ready for that at thus point or in need of being back on Bup?

As I said, re-read what Karen wrote and put me down for a ditto.

Don


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 Post subject: Re: SCREWED UP!
PostPosted: Mon Feb 10, 2014 9:56 pm 
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You've gotten very good advice so far and I won't repeat it, except to say that your life is worth being on bupe or the naltrexone shot, even if you have some negative side effects. And remember, you don't necessarily have to be on such a high dose that those side effects are bad. I have heard others say that the naltrexone shot DOES help with cravings, so at least consider that.

Everyone of us understands being where you are now. You have bravely stated the truth, now also accept the help that you need. (Hugs)

Amy

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 Post subject: Re: SCREWED UP!
PostPosted: Mon Feb 10, 2014 11:21 pm 
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im not 100% sure, but i think naltrexone is a partial agonist and that naloxone is the antagonist...so the vivitrol very well might help with cravings is that is correct

i'll be praying for you gemmasub..but everyone is right...this is not the end of the world...you had a week of slipping...you recognized it and came for help...hang in there bud..God bless

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 Post subject: Re: SCREWED UP!
PostPosted: Mon Feb 10, 2014 11:41 pm 
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pretty sure naltrexone and naloxone, (narcan) are all antagonists, difference being narcan is used to reverse effects of od, and lasts about forty five mins, and naltrexone, which is part of vivitrol will block the opiate receptors, by binding to the receptors, and lasting for about thirteen hours or so to block any opiate high. someone jump in if I'm wrong about how that works, but that's how another member here explained it to me when I questioned the difference between the two after reading a few of the above posts.
to the OP, I'm so sorry you've had a slip, but it was so brave of you to come talk to us about it, and while I can't relate to tapering of subs,I do understand wd and relapse, and you are truly in my thoughts and prayers tonight Todd. we're here to help you dust yourself off and support you in whatever approach you try next, don't give up. your life is worth it man! pulling for you here friend.

Lizzie


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 Post subject: Re: SCREWED UP!
PostPosted: Tue Feb 11, 2014 9:17 am 
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Hey Todd,

I am so sorry that you had to go through this. It sure is a kick in the pants when you have tried so hard to get free, only to go back and relapse once again. Please know that we all understand what you went through and are here to support you, not yell at you for screwing up. We get it.... :roll:

Like Don said, this is exactly what I fear the most for those people here who are tapering. Don't get me wrong, I believe that sobriety is possible after bupe. I just think that most people focus so much on getting through the WD, that they get blindsided by the cravings popping back up so soon after coming off the bupe. It's so hard to fight that when you aren't prepared for it! We get in this comfy zone with subs in our system and forget how hard it is to live without it.

I agree with those who suggested another run on the suboxone. And, I really hope that others here who are tapering will look at this thread and realize that if they have a similar experience it is OK to come back here and admit it! YOU DID NOT FAIL! The only way that you could be a failure is for you to have kept this to yourself and NOT admitted the slip. The failure would be if you kept using your DOC. Remember guys, we aren't fighting against the suboxone, we are fighting against our addiction! That is what will kill us....

Whatever you decide to do Todd, we support you. As long as it doesn't include using your DOC... :wink:

Don't let the guilt of this slip get you down, brother. You are a strong man, that has been made clear by your choice to come here and own up to it. I'm proud of you for that! Yes, your addiction picked a fight with you and won the first round, but you're not down for the count yet. Get back up and fight!

My money is on you, Todd!

Q

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 Post subject: Re: SCREWED UP!
PostPosted: Tue Feb 11, 2014 9:51 am 
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I wasn't completely positive myself on the effect of naltrexone on cravings so I decided to look it up. I also hate to kill anything that the mind has already done for someone. I've seen many times how people detoxing from Bup who were previously convinced that they would not have bad withdrawals due far better than those dreading withdrawal and certain it would be bad. That said, studies seem to show that "Patients who took naltrexone did not experience significant less craving than those who did not." You can read the abstract of this study here:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17508990

The same seems to go for smoking in which naltrexone didn't seem to be better than placebo (nothing) for quitting smoking

http://ntr.oxfordjournals.org/content/8/5/671

Oddly enough the drug seems to be used more for drinking than anything else and with success. So clearly it is blocking something and does something to help with at least reducing cravings and the "reward" from drinking which is either taken away or reduced by naltrexone.

Anyhow, it doesn't appear to be proven to reduce opiate cravings but if it does for some, then all the better. Plus, future studies may prove it actually does help curb cravings as some suggest. I just didn't find any current evidence to support that.


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 Post subject: Re: SCREWED UP!
PostPosted: Tue Feb 11, 2014 1:19 pm 
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whether it actually reduces cravings in some physiological way or reduces cravings because you know you can't get high, I don't know. All I know is, for me, when I first got off subs all I could think about was my DOC. I obsessed about it and slipped a few times. When I finally got the shot a few months off subs I immediately felt relief. Literally the hour after I got the shot I felt better. I felt a HUGE weight lifted off my shoulders. When I would crave opiates in the past it would start as a craving and become an obsession as I entertained the idea. With the vivitrol shot I can't even entertain the idea so the obsession never happens!


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 Post subject: Re: SCREWED UP!
PostPosted: Tue Feb 11, 2014 4:37 pm 
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So I just went to the doc. (With my sponsor)

First I want to thank everyone for all their comments, suggestions, and concerns. I listen to all of them because I know you guys know the fight better then anyone.

My reluctance to sub maintenance is because it dulled my life decreased my test levels to 130! And I still had to rely on an addictive substance to do anything.

Positives is it kept me from jail, od, and all the other great things we get from active addiction.

I was unprepared for the mental obsession that creeped in like a storm. I know from experience that it does go away slowely. It was my decision to run for doc then to go home that night. Maybe if I wouldn't of gone god would of came reduced the obsession moving forward. Idk.

For now I got subs for a 7 day taper and then hold on tight

Gemma


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 Post subject: Re: SCREWED UP!
PostPosted: Tue Feb 11, 2014 8:22 pm 
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I took my first dose. I don't no much about induction but I can tell you my tolerance is very low! .5mg has me closing my eyes. I guess this is good. Obviously I feel no wd at all and mentally feel good for the first time in weeks. My wife has had it. She wants me to through out the subs and go stay stay somewhere else for a week until I'm done with any detox. Not really sure how bad wd would be after a week of dilaudid only at night but I know I'll feel something. She's not home yet but will be soon. I'm gonna put my hockey mask on now.

Personally my feeling is 5 days on a real low dose and do this again. My consequences are mounting now. I won't feel crappy forever I just have to battle the obsessions when they come. This time be more afraid of the mental aspect then physical.

What do you guys think?

I don't want to use! I really don't. I just want to feel normal and I haven't the patience I need.
Oh god please help me I'm so confused.


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 Post subject: Re: SCREWED UP!
PostPosted: Tue Feb 11, 2014 10:10 pm 
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What's up man. Shoot. Well, I hate seeing this. Your obviously a good dude with a great wife. You made a mistake. Don't beet yourself up bro. Life is about getting up after you fall. If I were in Your shoes, Not knowing you too well but knowing the situation, I would weigh everything out. Your well aware of the annoying drawn out WD from sub. Taking those remaining 6 doses is just going to add to the stress in the end, being that you just went through it. That .25 you just took should level you out a few days. If it were me, I would give your wife the remaining 6 doses incase of relapse. Going through that again would just be costly. I'm saying this Knowing that your in No Way willing to be on sub. Everyone is different I guess, but speaking with you the first ten days I dropped I had a chance to really appreciate your will to be free from this. It took one second to turn that inside out. I wish I had better advice, I tried man. Peace

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 Post subject: Re: SCREWED UP!
PostPosted: Wed Feb 12, 2014 10:37 am 
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Gemmasub, in my experience, God doesn't remove our desire to use, but He does provide us with the tools to do so. I worry when I hear an addict speak as if they're going to rely solely on God. It's my opinion that God doesn't want us relying upon Him alone, He requires we put in a lot of hard work and use the tools He provides us with. Just my opinion.

I have to ask you a question. When you get done with this 5 or 7 days of Suboxone and stop again, do you think your cravings will come back? If so, what are you going to do different this time? Whatever you did last time didn't work out so well. If you don't learn from your last lapse and change your behavior, then shame on you. I'm not trying to be harsh, I'm just speaking to you as a person who has been through what you're going through and I'm trying to help.

Lastly, I sure wish you'd consider staying on Suboxone or trying Naltrexone. You made it all of 7 days off of Suboxone before you used. That scares me for you.

BTW, where did you get the dilly's from? Why were those even available to you? While on Suboxone, you should have broken off all ties to pills. Diligently removing as many triggers from your life as humanly possible is recovery 101. I'm confused on how you would have had such quick access to drugs.

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 Post subject: Re: SCREWED UP!
PostPosted: Wed Feb 12, 2014 1:13 pm 
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Hope - Thanks man I appreciate it. Actually last night some close friends came over and we all sat down and made a plan (actually they made the plan). I took .5 yesterday, I'm taking none today and .5 Friday, .25 sat and sun. The rest are gone. Id rather be in treatment then on subs again, which is where Im going if I use again. I feel fine today but Im sure that's the sub from yesterday with its long half life. Id love to not take the dose tomorrow. I'll only take it if I feel real bad. Other wise Im just gonna deal. I know subs aren't for me.

Romeo - Don't take my God talk to much. Everything you said makes perfect sense, I guess sometimes its hard to see it sometimes.

Small correction it was 14 days off subs, not 5-7 days. As far as the Dillies-I remember the guys number. Not sure Ill ever forget it. He lives just 15 minutes from me and its real easy to take a ride and just grab one. Without him it would be harder to get any, doubt I would of went through trying.

Lastly, my doctor flat out said to me _You don't need to be on suboxone -you need to deal with life on lifes terms. There are those that need sub maintenance for a long time but you're not one of them. My wife, friends don't agree with sub maintenance for me. Most of these guys and gals have been here, most have 5-6 years and even weirder most were my sponsees.

I guess I do have to do things differently, not sure what that is but with much more on the line this time I hope that fear is the missing ingredient.


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 Post subject: Re: SCREWED UP!
PostPosted: Wed Feb 12, 2014 2:02 pm 
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Fear is not enough. It might work for a few weeks at most but eventually that fear will dissipate and that phone number in your head will be your focus again. You must do something different this time. It seems your working a program so you are doing something right. The problem is, for opiate addiction, it's very very difficult to get through hose fist few months without a slip or full blown relapse. I've come off opiates many times and I could never overcome that obsession on my own. The program helped, but was not enough in the beginning. I hate sounding repetitive but since you seem to be struggling in the same way I was I really suggest you ask your doctor about naltrexone pills or the shot version of naltrexone. If anything, you should use it in those first few months when cravings are just too strong to deal with. Now that I am out of that difficult period my cravings are completely gone. I do think about opiates once in awhile, but it's not the physical and mental obsession that it was only months ago. It's a quick thought that goes away in minutes. I can now use the program to help me change for long term sobriety. But for getting out of that initial phase, your going to have to either have some real epiphany or use a medication like naltrexone.


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