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 Post subject: Save for a rainy day
PostPosted: Mon Oct 19, 2015 6:17 am 
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I have only been a member of this fantastic forum for about a month now and have read on more than a few threads, people mentioning stockpiling their suboxone.
I don't know if its an addict thing but I have always felt the need to do this with my drugs. You know, just incase you cant get on etc.

My question is, how do I stockpile. Im on 24 mg suboxone a day and get 5 takeaways a week. When im at the chemist they watch me take all 3 of my 8mg films.
So for the other 5 days does it mean I could take only 16mg and keep 1 aside every 5 days and have a few to put aside for emergencies; such as my chemist having shitty hours that don't coincide well with my full time job. Would I feel withdrawal if I did this even once a week?
Is that how its done? Im quite naïve about this as its new to me. I have asked my ex dealer to get me some from the streets but she cant get them ATM.

Would I notice a difference if I have 24mg some days a week and then take 16mg other days to save spares. Should I do it slower like only saving one 8mg per week?
If this is not allowed to be asked, im sorry. Its just that I have read people mention it, even SubDoc.
Whats the best way to do it please. I don't need many spares but just like to know they are there. I know many of you know what Im talking about. I even stress if I have to work back late as I wont make it to the chemist in time. Weekends are worse as they are only open 2 hrs and I have other commitments I cant get out of as no-one knows im chained to the chemist due to my sub use.

Thanking you in advance


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 Post subject: Re: Save for a rainy day
PostPosted: Mon Oct 19, 2015 6:42 am 
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Mel,

Doing what you suggested...taking 16mg a day, would probably be fine, and I personally doubt that you'd feel the difference.

The way it works in the States is that your doctor's appointment and refills are every four weeks (28 days), but the prescription is written for a 30 day supply. So over time you can build up a little supply from those two extra days.

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 Post subject: Re: Save for a rainy day
PostPosted: Mon Oct 19, 2015 6:44 pm 
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The methadone clinics in the US give daily doses of methadone, and 'take-homes' if people do well over time. Some are starting to treat with buprenorphine, under similar policies-- where patients are witnessed taking buprenorphine each morning. It would be difficult to stockpile in that setting, as the nurses are specifically watching to prevent it from happening. If a person who gets 'take-homes' tried anything that was against policy and got caught, that person would, at minimum, lose all take-home privileges, and have to come every day for the rest of his/her time in the program. More likely, the person would be kicked out of treatment.

But as Morphing wrote, most people in the US are PRESCRIBED buprenorphine products-- not 'dispensed' them. People probably stockpile in a range of ways-- as Morphing wrote, although most doctors should know enough to schedule patients at the same interval that they prescribe-for. Also in Wisconsin at least, patients on medicaid are given 'look-backs' every six months, to make certain that they have filled 180 days of medication, exactly, in the past 180 days. If they filled at 28 days on three of the times, the state would make them wait 6 days--- with no medication-- before they could get another refill. So I suspect that the people who 'stockpile' do it by claiming they need 24 mg per day (or legitimately believing that they need 24 mg), but then learn that they can get by on 20, 16, 12, or even 8 mg per day without much trouble.

I suspect some patients use 'extra' buprenorphine in a way that is similar to 'stockpiling.' Most docs are not idiots....jerks maybe, but not idiots.... and so most are suspicious if they know that a patient's spouse or partner is addicted to opioids, but 'has stopped them without treatment'. I'm sure there are many couples out there where one of the pair is prescribed buprenorphine products that gets 'shared' with the other. That probably appears reasonable to people when there is such a shortage of prescribers in some areas... but it is a felony, and people actually go to prison for that type of 'sharing'. Best for each patient to have his/her OWN doc!


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 Post subject: Re: Save for a rainy day
PostPosted: Tue Oct 20, 2015 2:38 am 
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Hello Mel! :D
Only recently have I considered a " just in case " stash. I decided to reduce anyway and currently records would indicate I'm now on 14mg, but I am actually taking 12mg and putting away 1x 2 mg daily. I don't intend to do it for much longer because in reality I don't think I will ever need them and would hate to see them wasted! Lol.
Some ideas for you...
Up until recently my dose of 16 was dispensed as 1x 8mg + 4x2mg. I was dosing 3 x daily (which I understand is not encouraged)
That could be one way to reduce without worry, if permitted by pharmacist, that you are dispensed 4x2, replacing only one of your 8's. Depending on the flexibility of your pharmacist that may or may not be possible! I told my pharmacist that due to " feeling it " at work, I preferred to dose on the smaller side before work. This was very true at the time until I stopped dosing before or during work, but that was my reason for requesting 2 mg films, instead of 2 x 8.
Or, you could increase your dose by 2 or 4mg and keep that as "extra".
Alternatively, you could split a film into halves, thirds, etc and spread over days?
Or Mel, you could ignore all of my babble and stick with what feels right for you!
I am lucky in that my pharmacist is very kind and never makes me dose in the chemist, mainly because I often see work colleagues in my travels. Also at some point you will qualify for 6 TA's.
Let us know how things pan out!


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 Post subject: Re: Save for a rainy day
PostPosted: Tue Oct 20, 2015 5:49 am 
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Thanks heaps for your replies.

I was just wondering if I would feel it much if I have 24mg some days and 16mg others.
Do the films get effected if the packet is opened and the film is not used until the next day?
I was thinking I could cut one in half here and there so when im at the chemist I have the 24 dose but then at home I could have 20mg and save the other half of one film for the next day. Then I would be saving one 8mg film a couple of times a week. If not I could try the 16mg dose, but not sure if bouncing from 24 to 16 is a good idea.
I could try your suggestion of getting more 2mg than 8mg films but my chemist is not that friendly and I don't feel comfortable or even confident asking for that.

What do you think about the halving option?


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 Post subject: Re: Save for a rainy day
PostPosted: Tue Oct 20, 2015 10:39 am 
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Hey Mel,

U should not be able to feel any difference between 24 and 18 mg. When I went from 16 to 12, no difference. I also went from 12 to 8, still no difference. Because of the ceiling effect, u shouldn't be able to feel any difference at all. If u do, it's probably just ur mind playing tricks on u, but physically ur not gonna notice anything. Most ppl report a difference dropping below 8-4 mg, so u should be just fine.

Also, ur packs will be fine after opening them, just fold the top over to help seal it bk. When I was on 12 mg I'd have to open an 8 mg strip and cut it in half and the remaining half was perfectly fine and never dried out.

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 Post subject: Re: Save for a rainy day
PostPosted: Wed Oct 21, 2015 1:45 am 
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Hey Mel,
Some moons ago I used to cut my strip and seal it well with sticky tape and had no issues dosing on the saved portion at a later date. That sounds like a good option because you have only recently stabilised on 24mg.
Let us know how you go :)


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 Post subject: Re: Save for a rainy day
PostPosted: Wed Oct 21, 2015 3:03 am 
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Hi Mel. I understand your need to have a 'buffer' of a few strips handy in case you can't get to the pharmacy.

I don't think you would feel the drop much, if at all, if you were to drop to 16mg one day a week for a little while. On those higher doses of Subs, there's a significant stacking effect that should act as a buffer against feeling any withdrawal symptoms. Even people who drop to 16mg from 24 and stay there don't feel they experience withdrawals of any significance.

That being said I wouldn't drop all your take-away days to 16. Having doses that fluctuate between 16mg for 5 days and 24mg for 2 days isn't ideal.


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 Post subject: Re: Save for a rainy day
PostPosted: Wed Oct 21, 2015 5:02 am 
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Thanks for answering my questions guys.
Katipo, I agree. I don't think 24mg twice a week and then 16mg the other 5 days is the best option. As you noticed, I am only just stabilizing ATM on 24. I have also hit a rough patch this week and came very close to busting a few times. Luckily I was strong enough not to but who knows........its only very early days.
For that reason I may just cut an 8mg in half and majority be taking 20mg a day for the moment. If I tell my doc I felt like busting he will want to put me up a dose and I don't really want that. But then again tapering in the end is gonna be hard no matter what dose I get to.
Im at that point (about 41 days on sub) where I really miss getting messed up, feeling numb and nodding off. Just have to really try hard to listen to only the positive self talk and remember its been a habit for over 20 yrs, so of course I would miss it.


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 Post subject: Re: Save for a rainy day
PostPosted: Wed Oct 21, 2015 2:04 pm 
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It's important for you to find other activities that bring you pleasure and take up time that you would have usually been using. At first for me I started playing online "who dunnit" type games with hidden object scenes, etc. Then I went through an unfortunate stage of online shopping, which I don't recommend! Now I have the forum and my online studies to hold my attention. I did not use for as long as you and I've been in recovery for just over 4 years now, so it has gotten easier.

I hope this has helped even in some small way. It is hard, but you can overcome your old patterns! Try looking up some SMART Recovery materials. I know that you're into NA and that is great! I think that SMART Recovery could complement what you are learning in NA. SMART can give you concrete suggestions for the times that you don't feel strong.

Amy

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 Post subject: Re: Save for a rainy day
PostPosted: Wed Oct 21, 2015 10:51 pm 
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Yeah it's quite normal to go through the occasional period where you miss the feeling. Like Amy said, SMART have some useful tools. Check out this page to start:

http://blog.smartrecovery.org/2012/04/10/5-ways-to-deal-with-urges-and-cravings/#.VihOGR9uTTc

Also some simple consequential thinking can help you get through. Imagine turning up to an NA meeting and telling everyone you busted. Bummer. Like they said in a rehab I did years ago, don't just watch the preview, watch the whole movie. ie don't just think of the effect of the drug, think of how you'll feel afterwards and the consequences, be they to your self-worth, your finances, your clean-time. Especially given you're on 24mg, it'd probably be days without Suboxone before you'd get any effect anyway. It'd be like shooting water. So you'll be wasting your money, losing your clean time, hitting your self-worth ... for nothing.


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 Post subject: Re: Save for a rainy day
PostPosted: Thu Oct 22, 2015 2:28 am 
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Thanks Teejay and Amy for the SMART link and idea, I will check it out ASAP.

Just to clarify, I have not been on opiates for the whole 20 yrs. Just 2 yrs when I was 18 and the last few yrs, oh and I was also born on it. Maybe that's where I got a liking for it lol. All the other years I have not had a day without at least 1 drug in my system. Always chasing that first high. or I should probably call it low.
TeeJay your so right about my 24mg dose requiring days before I could get on anyway and that's why I chose suboxone instead of methadone. I know myself and that I cannot be trusted.

Amy, your so right about getting active. I have so many things I could be doing now especially as uni has finished for the year. Problem is I get lazy and just don't want to bother some days. I have had the ebay bug but at least its controlled these days. When I was a big drinker it was really bad. I once bid on a motorbike in Sydney (im in Melbourne) and it was like close to 27 grand. I didn't want or need the bike but just kept bidding being competitive. Anyway I learnt my lesson cos I won the bid and then had to apologise the next day and make up a rotten story to get out of it.
Its also hard as I have had to cut all of my closely located friends off as they all use or drink hard. That's another good reason for NA, im slowly making a few there.
Anyway I just want to thank you for replying. I appreciate you spending time on giving me support and advise, as it really helps.
Thanks heaps :)


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 Post subject: Re: Save for a rainy day
PostPosted: Thu Oct 22, 2015 5:37 am 
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Hey Mel,
Wow, you did well getting yourself out of that $27,000 commitment!
Also,good going on surviving your rough patch. I've almost forgotten how trying it was in the early days of recovery. I lapsed once shortly after taking subs and I gotta say, very dissatisfying! The subs completely blocked the high, so I learnt very quickly it was an absolute waste of time.
When I read people's suggestions on recovery, I realise I am far from where I should be.
The only decent thing I have going for me is I can hold down a job. There seems to be a sizeable deficit in all other areas of my life. For the most part I'm a hermit. I talk, sing and dance to my feline babies and as crazy as that sounds, I prefer and enjoy that over being around ppl.
People disappoint me, not directly or personally, I just can't relate to most ppl I interact with.
I am deeply sensitive to injustices against animals and more often than not I'm alone in my thinking.
Sorry Mel, kind of drifted away from the topic!


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 Post subject: Re: Save for a rainy day
PostPosted: Fri Oct 23, 2015 1:41 am 
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well Katipo, your not alone there. I dislike humans and what they do to each other, the world and animals.
I work with high risk youth while I finish my social work degree. I think its because people are my second fav to animals that im able to detach from my job when I get home. I know a lot of workers that cannot and that causes burn out fast.
Anyway im an animal lover and activist whenever possible. My sister in law just moved into block of flats and the woman who previously lived there left her cat behind. Apparently she had it 10 yrs and just up and left it. There is a rumor that she asked the lady in the front unit to look after it but we saw her shoowing the cat away! Absolute turds they are. It was used to being indoors as it just came straight in like it ws its home (and it used to be). I had to catch it and take it to a shelter because we couldn't bare to hear its crying which im sure was pining for he owner. The shelter has a no kill policy so we are happy its not safe, being fed and has a home until someone adopts it.

Thanks for listening


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 Post subject: Re: Save for a rainy day
PostPosted: Fri Oct 23, 2015 4:31 am 
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Mel, Thankyou for caring enough about the abandoned cat, I hope she finds a loving home. I feel sad just thinking about it. Cats are so sensitive, let alone a bordering geriatric one. Honestly what is fucking wrong with ppl!
I think it's excellent your studying social work. I admire ppl with a social conscience. Also jealous because I would love to feel I have what it takes to be educated in something. I never grew up planning for a future or a career, it was the furthest thing from my mind.
I did have thoughts of growing up and being in playboy or the like, fucked up really.
Before suboxone, I was predictably unreliable, I would jump from job to job. I would even shoot up before interviews. Like many, I didn't fit into the " junkie" stereotype. So I could easily pull this off.
My journey on heroin was not so typical. I had no other friends that used. Since 12 yrs of age, I was the kind of girl that would take anything to get high but as far as heroin, I was naive to that world and wasn't until my late 20's when i stepped into it. When I scored, I just knew to hand over $200, I had no clue of how much I was buying. Early on, I was a perfect target for getting ripped off. This hurt.
That life feels so remote, thankfully the madness stopped because of subs.
If things were different and I was leaning more towards normal with even an average cognitive ability, I would love to study....maybe entomology. I adore spiders and insects.
I have always felt very deeply for animals. As an activist I have watched close to a hundred pieces of footage of the most sickening cruelty, unimaginable to a reasonable person.
This is the only thing that gets me down. How shitty a place this world is. How fuckin sick ppl are. Death, finality is the only comfort for me in that moment. Knowing there is an end point to the suffering.


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 Post subject: Re: Save for a rainy day
PostPosted: Fri Oct 23, 2015 4:36 am 
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Thanks for "listening" also hehe.
Mel, I have completely hijacked your thread, sorry!


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 Post subject: Re: Save for a rainy day
PostPosted: Fri Oct 23, 2015 1:24 pm 
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Katipo, I admire you for being able to watch such footage. I can't even stand to watch when commercials come on TV begging for people to adopt animals who have been through miserable circumstances. I have to mute the TV or walk away. Same with news stories about animal cruelty. I can't watch or I would be weeping several times a week. We got both of our chihuahua type dogs from a rescue organization. The older one has "issues". He can be very grumpy and he tries to nip at us or bite us when he's startled, or doesn't like the weather, or doesn't appreciate being petted, etc. But we are glad to give him a home and at times he's completely delightful. The other is a complete sweetheart. Our cats were from a no-kill shelter. I admit to giving friends and relatives a hard time if they get any animal from a petshop and I urge them to look at footage of puppy mills.

I joke with my husband that when he retires he needs to start a chihuahua ranch! He loves those dogs even more than I do!

Amy

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 Post subject: Re: Save for a rainy day
PostPosted: Sat Oct 24, 2015 5:03 am 
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Amy and Katipo,
You both sound like wonderful people. Amy its never too late for study. I began my degree at age 33!

I used to be an animal activist when I wsa able to. The organisation I was involved in is prob like yours Katipo, as they had to break in and get footage. I found it really hard to look at the images but just kept in mind "we are going to get these fuckers" and then see the courts let then off with a small fine, if that. OUr laws in Australia are slowly changing but not anywhere near fast enough. Its like live export. Our government banned it within the past 7 yrs and now its legal again. Its just cruel.

I don't like looking at the images myself at all anymore. I wish I could just find way of informing and educating society of whats going on but they wont listen because they don't want to look at the pictures. Its a catch 22. They need to see the images to know what needs changing and help but the images unfortunately are too real and raw. Then the money donations and more action just doesn't happen then. It has plagued me for years about how to inform without the sickening pics.
Do you guys have Oscars law where you are? Its in Aus and its all about shutting down puppy mills and not selling any animals in pet shops. They are great. If I won lottery (not that I buy tickets lol)
I would help so many out I found be broke in a week.
The no kill shelter I took the cat ro is where I got our dog and cat from :)

Anyway, glad were all on the same page


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 Post subject: Re: Save for a rainy day
PostPosted: Sun Oct 25, 2015 3:27 am 
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Hi Amy,
It's very difficult to watch cruelty to animals, when I was new to activism in the late 90's, I had unlimited access to a library of undercover footage. Everything from scientists punching beagle dogs ( SHAC campaign )to farm workers forcing a broom handle into the anus of a pig for entertainment and that was the " lighter" stuff.
I almost had to see to believe, but as horrendous as it was, I forced myself, knowing they were the victims and I had a duty to watch and to then try to do something about it.
Nowadays, it is a little harder for me to watch, it definantly consumes me in an unhealthy way.
I love that you have adopted rescue's...issues and all! The grumpy one sounds too cute!
Thankyou for being a voice and encouraging others to learn about puppy farms.

Hi Mel,
I appreciate your encouragement with study but I doubt it will happen!i also appreciate all you have done as well to be a voice for animals.
I raided a puppy farm many yrs ago and it was heartbreaking. Oh yes and don't get me started on live export!
Hope you are having a nice Sunday, how nice is our weather today!


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 Post subject: Re: Save for a rainy day
PostPosted: Mon Oct 26, 2015 12:19 pm 
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I couldn't even read your whole message, Katipo. It's weird. There are two things I have a complete aversion to. Velvet and animal cruelty. The velvet is a tactile thing from when I was a little girl. Touching it, thinking of touching it, hearing someone else touch it and I instantly get goosebumps and run away. And video or written descriptions of animal cruelty. I've done various immature things to get away from hearing it, fingers in ears and singing tunelessly, for example. Velvet and animal abuse have nothing to do with each other except that I can't stand being near them or reports of them. And they are both included in my worst nightmare, which is being trapped in a velvet factory and having to listen to news stories of animal abuse interspersed with speeches from people like Donald Trump and Ted Cruz and Lindsay Graham. Uggh!

Seriously though, I've always been completely sensitive and if I allowed myself to think about certain subjects I would spend all day every day crying. I've built up defensive walls against most things, but not against animal cruelty.

I do wonder if a sensitive personality type is more likely to become addicted to numbing drugs like opiates. I made it through high school and college without using drugs, although I did binge drink a few times in college. It took grieving my mom's death, my father's rather insane behavior, and my son's bout with depression at 8 years old to make me feel that I deserved to feel better with a pill. I wonder if it was some sort of sensitivity overload that made me look to drugs.

Sorry to ramble. It's been very good to get to know more about you both. Thanks for sharing!

Amy

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