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PostPosted: Mon Sep 23, 2013 1:05 pm 
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As much as it hurts me to write this, I relapsed around August 20 after getting off suboxone. I still don't know what the hell it was that made me want to do an opiate again, but for some reason I did. I was so proud of myself for having over 2 years clean and then getting off of suboxone completely. Obviously I now wish I never got off suboxone, but it doesn't change the fact that I can't go back. I have 6 films from when I was on suboxone and feel like I can definitely use them to my advantage and just do a quick detox before trying to go back to my doctor.

I have used heroin every day since relapsing and have to use, what I consider, a descent amount to get high. I'm a college student and I still don't realize how I’ve managed to use every day and not completely fucked up in my classes. I know if I don't do something right away then who knows where I'll end up. I want to make an appointment with my old suboxone doctor to get back on the program but he told me when I very first started that you can only go on suboxone once. If you then relapse he won't give you suboxone again. This is what I am worried about. Although I did ask him once I get off suboxone and felt like I was getting cravings if he would let me get back on it, and he replied yes.

It's so hard because if I am honest with him about me relapsing I'll be so screwed. My school is very expensive and I cannot just leave. Truthfully I feel like if I was to get on suboxone again I know I’ll succeed like I once did and mange my life.

At this point I just don't know what to do about now. I am really backed up with schoolwork and absolutely HAVE to get my work done, and I can only do that by not using. I can't play around with that hell-like drug any longer. I don't know when I should take a dose of suboxone and be safe of avoiding precipitated withdrawals. The other problem is telling my parents that I need to go back on suboxone. Also, what if the doctor won't prescribe it again? I just don't know what to do... Any input would be great, and I don't want to get ambushed here with insults.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 23, 2013 1:17 pm 
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I really hope that's just a seriously messed up, misguided 'scare tactic' by your former Dr. It makes zero sense and seems like he's condemning addicts to death for doing what all statistics show they will do once off maintenance. Is he the only option available to you?! I hope not, but if so your life depends on you getting into recovery so I would tell him that you have been having serious cravings and wish to get back on maintenance. Good luck!

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 23, 2013 1:25 pm 
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First of all, if anyone insults you, tell them to fuck off!!

K, you relapsed. Welcome to opiate addiction. I know it sucks to relapse and I know how painful it is. Now it's time to suck it up and do the right thing, which for you, sounds like getting back on Suboxone.

It sounds like your pride or fear of being outed is standing in your way of getting back on Suboxone. Put all that crap aside and get back on Suboxone.

As for your doctor, I'd tell him that I was having serious cravings and need back on Suboxone. If he won't put you back on, find someone that will.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 23, 2013 1:33 pm 
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Thanks a lot for your reply twincities, I really appreciate it! I hope you're right about it being a scare tactic, it's just that I know him and don't think I'd have to go through the whole new patient thing again. Last I heard from him was that he wasn't going to take insurance anymore but I am so desperate. The appointments without insurance would be $200. I think I can submit it to my insurance though and they may reimburse me. Like you said finding a new doctor is definitely a possibility which I might just end up doing. Thanks!


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 23, 2013 1:46 pm 
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Your doctor is so backwards on this I can't stand it!! This punitive bullshit saying that you only have one shot at suboxone is very wrong. Like twincities, I hope this was your doctor's misguided attempt to keep you on sub in the first place and not his real viewpoint. Addiction is a chronic, relapsing brain disorder and it should not be approached by practitioners from a moralistic point of view!

I want you to know that support is always available for you here. We know that there are bumps on the road to recovery. Don't view this period as a failure! View it as a period you need to get through before you head towards recovery once again.

Keep talking to us. Let us know what you find out from your sub doctor. We'll be here for you as you take the steps toward recovery!

Amy

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 23, 2013 1:49 pm 
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I must've been typing at the same time as you Romeo, but you are so right.

I think I am about to call him to find out exactly what he says and stop wondering. I just don't know when I am able to take suboxone again after heroin. I also know that this thing isn't black and white and there isn't a definite set amount of time. An idea would help though. I looked it up and from what I found heroin lasts longer than oxycodone. Last time I used was yesterday around 4.

Back before I was ever prescribed suboxone, and I was using oxycodone in high amounts it was no problem for me to take sub that I’d buy within 12 hours of using. I'd also be able to use again after suboxone in a time way under what I have read, like 18hrs. I am really young so that may have something to do with it. Even then when I wouldn't use oxy for a while my withdrawals weren't all that bad. They were Pretty much just intense, controlling cravings but not too bad on the physical end. Knowing I'm not going to use any seems to actually help although it's all mental. Whether any of that makes any difference, I'm not sure.

I just am fighting the urge to go use. If I take a sub though that is pretty much a commitment to not use. I just don't want to end up with PWs.

The only people that know I’m using are the ones that use too. It’s hard to talk to this about anyone close to me. I want to tell me close friends and roommates so bad but I just don’t want to be judged or treated any different like a junkie, even though I kind of am.

This has been helpful though. Thanks for reading and the reply.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 23, 2013 2:06 pm 
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Thanks Amy!

It was my very first appointment when he told me that, but as I remember it his reasoning was that if suboxone doesn't work the first time then it likely won't the second. Also the fact that having to go through the withdrawals could make you not want to ever use again. Although, that's only if you make it to that point without using, which I guess then suboxone wouldn’t be necessary. I understand that, but don't really agree. Has anyone in a similar situation heard the same thing? If not, I'm curious how it was handled because that could be great assistance.

I might just end up going to a different doctor based on that and the fact he stopped taking insurance. Overall he did sound a lot better than some I've read about on here in the past. He never pushed me to stop suboxone but at the same time I sensed he could care less and just wanted the money. He was constantly worrying about the DEA audits and openly talked about how he could get in trouble for a few various things.

I'm about to call and find out. I just wanted to reply first because they all showed up within like 10 minutes of each other. Reading your responses have been incredibly helpful and optimistic, something i didn't feel at all a few hours ago. Also, what OTC meds would help manage the withdrawals? Although I used to not, I now get bad sweats and they are really uncomfortable. Thanks for reading my long messages by the way.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 23, 2013 2:43 pm 
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You haven't used since 4pm yesterday and you aren't feeling withdrawal symptoms? Are you smoking or snorting it? That could explain it. I've found it's easier to induce to suboxone when you're not IVing it. Is your doctor going to make you induce in the office? I personally was always given a script to fill and take home but I know that some doctors make you induce right then and there.

If your doctor would just give you a script, I'd go and see him while you're still feeling fine, then induce once you're actually going through withdrawals. You may be fine to induce now if you're tolerance isn't that high but it's better to be safe than sorry. Heroin is usually more difficult to induce from than oxy. Oxy is a breeze comparatively speaking.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 23, 2013 4:41 pm 
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Hey fireman, use this link to the COWS (Clinical Opiate Wd Scale) to help you figure out when your wd is bad enough to start Suboxone.

http://www.naabt.org/documents/cows_ind ... _sheet.pdf

I would suggest a COWS score of 15 to 18 before you start Suboxone.

I'll check in on ya later, I'm off to the gym.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 23, 2013 5:14 pm 
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Tinydancer, yes you're correct that I don't IV it but rather snort it. Now that it’s been 24hrs I think I'm probably good to take a sub. Based on the COWs chart I’m around that margin Romeo mentioned. I want to be sure though so I may wait longer. The chart severity is based on opinion so it’s difficult. I'm going to take one of the subs I have now. I'm not sure about my doctor's office, although he may be hesitant to put me on the dose I need to be at if I'm not able to tell him I relapsed.

Thanks for replying!


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 23, 2013 9:27 pm 
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How are you doing? Did you take anything?


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 23, 2013 10:42 pm 
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I never took anything today, out of fear it'd be too soon. If it's true that you've got to wait to the point you would be really sick without going into PWs then that probably would've happened to me.

I had so much homework to do I took a vyvanse and turned off my phone. Naturally the side effects of vyvanse being a stimulant gave me an increased heart rate, made me even sweatier on top of making my pupils massive. Normally when I don't have dope I sweat a lot, but don't notice myself getting larger pupils or increased heart rate so that made me hesitant on the COWs chart.

Right now I feel good for the most part. I've been able to block out all of the cravings in my head. If I was in a place with nothing to do, interact with, or not school I would've driven myself absolutely freaking crazy. I used to not give a damn and say fuck you to just about anything and done it anyways. It's weird to me but, between heroin and oxycodone the legal one of the two is more addicting. Does the heroin just take longer to give you the hard withdrawals?

I also smoked weed (don't smoke cigarettes) when I got home like an hour ago which has made it relaxing physically and also took the craving away mentally. For the vyvanse though, it may've dropped the cravings but increased the physical side effects.

As far as withdrawals, I am very sweaty, have a runny nose, temperature sensitive, and get the chills if the temp is too cold making the hair on my arm stand straight up. Very similar as suboxone withdrawals at their worst, not sure how bad this will get and when I'll know.

After I looked at the COWs chart again there were like 10pts that I was so on the fence about without knowing how much the vyvanse caused.

Any thoughts? And thanks for reading.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 23, 2013 10:57 pm 
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I'm glad you listened to your body and decided not to take anything. With heroin being a street drug, you never know what it's been cut with, so I think you were wise to wait it out.

When you do decide to start, you could take a test dose of 1mg (Suboxone) or so and see how you react to it? From what I've seen, once a person is already decently into wd, a 1mg dose usually won't send you into PW's, but it is enough for you to know if you're ready to take more or not.

Lastly, listen to your body and yourself, you sound like you already pretty much know how to induce.

Good luck, fireman.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 23, 2013 11:10 pm 
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Yeah, I don't have a whole lot of additional advice. I'm trying to put myself in your shoes and I can't think of a time when I was able to go as long as you are now without NEEDING something pronto, except for when I first started out and wasn't as strung out. You've been using for only a month so it's possible you are not as dependent on it as you'd think. In which case, taking Suboxone at this point, wouldn't do any harm.

However, it could be that what you're using is cut with long acting opiates, like Romeo suggested. In which case waiting it out longer is the smart move.

I think it's the former but you're better safe than sorry. Sorry, I'm not much help on this one. You'll just have to trust your own instincts on this one.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 20, 2013 8:12 pm 
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Hey so I figured I'd post an update for those that read.

The day I wrote that thread I had not used that entire day or took any suboxone. I had class the next day early in the morning and hadn't gone to bed until late. I wasn't able to fall asleep for like 2-3 hours even though I took diphenhydramine, as I usually do. Had I fallen asleep immediately I would've only gotten roughly 5 hours, but probably only got like 2 and a half. I couldn't stop moving for some reason, hard to describe but it was like a spasm to some minor degree.

The next morning I felt pretty bad, the same symptoms for the most part but maybe a little worse. Even though I knew I was in the clear to take a suboxone without much of a risk of PWs I didn't for some stupid reason. Even though I had all the reason in the world to not use and get my shit together, I told myself otherwise. After my class I drove to hang out with my so called friend and ended up using. Even after that awful day I endured, it ended up being for nothing since I knew I was going to have to go through it all again. I mean, how irrational is this logic?

It was probably a week before I made that original post that I had tried smoking dope (aluminum foil) and did probably 2-3 times. At first I got nothing out of it but soon after realized how much less it took to get high. I began smoking regularly rather than snorting. Snorting was so easy to do and easy to play off in public places. On the other hand smoking took so much longer and was so obvious if seen. Even taking this into account I didn't really care and smoked all over when I wasn't able to at my house or a friends. It's amazing I wasn't caught, although there was one close call when a cop drove by my parked car, in a relatively high drug area, as I was snorting a line. Even though it scared the living shit out of me, it never stopped me. Heroin possession ain't exactly some minor charge I could pay a $50 fine and 10 hours community service.

The day I took my first sub I was feeling really bad. The last time I used was at night so I had to wait through the entire day. After 24 hours I felt really bad and was difficult to know when was okay to take the suboxone. I ended up calling a pharmacy to ask if they thought I would be good, and when I told her it was heroin her response was that 24hrs is definitely long enough and that it is out of your system really fast, and that she thought I would be fine taking the suboxone.

I finally scheduled an appointment to see a doctor. My old one was full, so I am now seeing a new one. He wasn't able to see me for a few days so I was able to make my old left over ones last. My first appointment was last week and everything went smooth. I like him a lot better since he seems like he actually cares and is understanding/ My old one was good, but it seemed to me he had a racket going on and could care less as long as the money was coming in. He was constantly paranoid about the DEA. The new one runs a pain management practice as well making his office busier. Overall, I'm satisfied and feel better altogether having finally done this. Thanks for reading.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 20, 2013 8:50 pm 
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You did it, Fireman!

Glad you eventually managed to get yourself back on suboxone and even better that you're seeing a new doc that you like. I had many failed attempts to induce on suboxone due to waiting a bit too long. There is a very thin line that you cross where your body and brain tell you that it will be much better to just get high again vs. starting suboxone. I had a full script of sub my whole last year of using. Kept putting it off...

Glad you didn't wait too long and are back on it. Keep doing good!


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 20, 2013 10:37 pm 
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Thanks Tinydancer! I really appreciate your input.

I really want to start getting involved in NA or something similar. When I was using it felt like I lived 2 lives. The only people that know are the ones I used, who live in a little bit different of an area than I do. My current roommates and friends from college have absolutely no idea I have been using and would be if I told them.

It seems to me like most people I know here wouldn't believe me if I told them I smoked weed, because I don't really. When I'm around people that smoke I always turn it down because I don't really like the high. Opiates really did it for me. Weed makes me so high I can't really function socially. It's strange because the most common drugs (weed and alcohol) mess me up more than any.

Unfortunately there's some stereotype from movies and TV about drug abusers, specifically hard drugs like heroin, and their image that I don't fit, along with like 80% of addicts I meet. I'm not really sure what I'm trying to say other than the fact of how hard it is to open to certain people that don't have any experience with this.

I'm worried if I tell some people they will look and treat me differently. I'm driving myself crazy not being able to talk to anyone about this kind of thing and mainly I'm an addict. It's certainly not necessary to tell the people I live with, but with the kind of these I'm struggling with it could help, that is if they were accepting of it and all. Not sure what to do about this.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 20, 2013 11:12 pm 
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It's good to hear you desire going to meetings. I think that would be a great idea. I personally would suggest AA over NA, but maybe that's just because of my experiences. I always felt more comfortable in an AA group. (Less weirdos ;) ) Yes, AA is based around alcoholics but a lot of them are addicts too. Obviously, it's up to you but any drug therapy/ group you choose should be beneficial for you.

I know what you mean about no one around you knowing what you're up to. I hid it for a long time too. I was a live-in nanny for a city councilman and his family the whole entire time I was smoking heroin. It wasn't until I started using IV that all that quickly went out the window. You've already started experimenting with different methods, just do what you gotta do to stay on the right path this time. Suboxone, meetings, whatever it takes. Nip it in the bud now, while you're young and you don't have much collateral damage.

As far as your friends.. it's my suggestion that you save it for the meetings. No matter how open minded your friends are, they won't get it. Save it for people who understand and you'll feel better getting it off your chest. This is just my suggestion.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 21, 2013 3:02 am 
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Everything you said really resonates with me. My school has a recovery program that offers meetings daily and the majority of them are AA, while there is one NA and one for eating disorders. The principles are the same in NA and AA, so I'm definitely going to make it to some AA rather than a single NA meeting a week. If I was to speak, I don't know whether to refer to myself as an addict or alcoholic.

It's so true that regardless of how open minded someone is they truly don't get it. Years ago in my heyday I used to do 30mg roxies and rarely heroin. It was so few times I used heroin I could count the number with my fingers. Oxycodone is accepted so much more than heroin because it is prescribed, which is so misleading since it is synthetic, pharmaceutical grade heroin. It is such a loaded word.

If the subject was ever brought up, I would say it was pain killers and not heroin for those reasons. To most people the severity of oxy is like 7/10 and heroin 10/10. If I was going to bring it up to any friends here, it would've happened by now. Out of curiosity, do you make that statement because it's heroin, or would you say that for any drug?


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 21, 2013 10:36 am 
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Hey fireman, good to hear from you again I'm glad you found your way back to Suboxone!!

I think meetings could really help you out right now. You have a lot bouncing around that noggin' of yours and a meeting may be the best place to let it out.

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