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PostPosted: Fri Mar 23, 2012 2:36 pm 
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Hi All,

I take suboxone, battle opiate addiction, and had a relapse this week and wanted to share my thoughts and experiences with others, i was googling everything i could find this week about what happens if you fail a drug test while undergoing a suboxone program, i saw some posts and wanted to share for others that may be in this situation some day. So here goes my story:

I was a fairly heavy opiate user for about 3 years, of course my addiction progressed over time and the 5-10mg vicodin's and percocet's became 30-60 mg oxy's. I tried stopping of course to no avail and finally ended up taking suboxone in August of 2011, anyways the doctor i was seeing at the time started me off on (3) 8MG films per day, immediately i started feeling and doing much better, getting my life back on track. I was about two months into my treatment when i felt that i didn't need to take (3) films per day, so i cut myself down to 1 to 1.5 of the 8MG films per day. My main rationale was the physical side effects of the medication, constipation, etc. Anyways, that was a bad idea as the doctor i was seeing at the time told me my suboxone levels were too low and i was basically thrown out of their program.

I was able to find a new doctor and started with him in November 2011, luckily my suboxone treatment didn't really lapse as i had some extra films from when they were initially prescribing me 3 8mg films per day. Shortly thereafter i was able to go once a month to the doctor for a checkup and to get my script. I started off at 12MG per day and shortly thereafter was moved, down to 8mg, and then finally 6mg.

I should have spoke up or done something but i could feel myself slipping towards a relapse, increasing stress levels, alcohol use, non opiod drug use, etc. I finally ended up a week short on my sub prescription because i was still taking 8mg a day instead of the 6mg i was prescribed, at that point after a particularly rough night out on st patrick's day i slipped and called my "other doctor" the one i hadn't talked to in over 6 months. 45 minutes later i had 20, 15mg oxycodone pills in my hands and was on my way. I have to say the first day felt great, it got rid of my hangover beautifully. The problem came when i woke up Monday and took a couple more to "keep me going" and then a couple more after lunch, etc. You are probably getting the picture here, three days later i had met my "doctor" two more times and was really in full swing. Meanwhile I had an appointment in two days with my real doctor who prescribes me the suboxone. I was faced with a decision point of continued on-going addiction or admitting my mistake and getting some help. After some soul searching I showed up at my doctor's office this morning, had to get a urine test of course so i just fessed up on what had been going on. Obviously the doctor wasn't too pleased with what i told combined with my dirty urine, i got a good lecture, which i deserved and then some. At that point he told me that i could stay in the program , however i would need to come weekly for a while to make sure i was staying clean and he sent me on my way.

I feel okay today, still a little tired but no major wd's i can't handle, my last use was yesterday afternoon so about 24 hours ago now, i did dose with subs of course immediately after my appointment. I feel good about my chances going forward but realize i have a lot of work to do and things to change, however, i am really happy i got a 2nd chance for suboxone. I was pretty desperate heading into that doctor's appointment today and am relieved now. I found out in the middle of this relapse that my wife is pregnant and we are expecting our first child in November.

Just wanted to share that if you do slip up it's better to deal with it right away and be honest versus slip sliding away. Addiction really sucks and i want to do my best to control it going forward.

Anyone have any similar stories? Does my doctor sound very easy going about this versus other doctors.

Thanks
Brady


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 27, 2012 1:04 am 
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Hi Brady and welcome to the forum. Thanks for sharing your experience. When members come here after having relapsed and don't know what to say to their doctors, most of us encourage them to just be honest. It's the best way. Hell, the truth usually ends up coming out anyway, doesn't it? And usually most doctors seem pretty understanding if the person is up front and honest. And I'm so glad your doctor was as well. Again, welcome and I hope you stick around.

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 27, 2012 8:10 am 
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I'm here to tell you, with all the stresses a new baby brings, you need to get yourself to a point where you don't even THINK about anything but staying clean and in treatment. There's absolutely NOTHING like a baby, and trust me when I say they grow up a LOT quicker than you can imagine. You want to be able to CHERISH those firsts as they come..not be too out-of-it to remember it..first words, first steps, first everything that they do..because you'll never get the chance to see your baby take their first steps again. You'll never get to rewind and go back so you can hear the first words, or the first time that baby says "daddy" or anything else for that matter.

We just brought one home from the hospital on February 27, after spending a week in NICU with her because of breathing problems. My other babies, when they came home from the hospital, I had too much other "important" shit going on to care about spending time at home, enjoying them, like I should've been doing...so I was out chasing pills and getting high. Now I have a head-full of regrets with my others, but this one...I was in the right frame of mind for her..and I've spent as much time as humanly possible just sitting with her and holding her. I've spent countless nights with her asleep on my chest, and lost LOTS of sleep staying up with her feeding her so my wife could sleep. But, before she was born, I told my wife that I was going to really take some time with this baby and do as much as I could, since I get to stay home with her and enjoy the baby stage..I never did that with the others because in-between the doping myself up, I had to work..granted we wound up having to leave our home because I quit paying bills, we still lived here off and on during the other kids first couple of years.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 27, 2012 4:05 pm 
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Jonathan M- Thanks for your words of encouragement. I am working hard and focusing on staying clean by attending group meetings more often as well as going back to a substance abuse counselor. This whole experience has really been a wake up call for me, i am just about done withdrawing from the oxy's as last Thursday was the last time I used. Having Suboxone has really helped me through this process and i am determined to never let it happen again. I am sure this isn't uncommon for folks who relapse but when i first started on the suboxone last summer I was doing the right things, attending meetings, seeing a counselor, etc. As time went on I started to slack on all that and just took the suboxone for granted, I think like anything once that happens you gradually start to slip and I forgot that i couldn't stop after doing "just one". As you mentioned I don't want to have any regrets going into parenthood, this addiction has already taken so much from me and left me with so many regrets. I guess that's the stuff i need to work through to get over that guilt. The funny thing is there are some new stresses in life but at this point I am back to just being happy and thankful to get through each day clean. I am really happy to hear that you are doing better now and congratulations on your new baby that was born last month.

Hatmaker- You are absolutely correct. If I didn't own up to what had happened i would be in a lot of trouble today. Thanks so much for the warm welcome and understanding words.

-Brady


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 27, 2012 11:45 pm 
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Brady12 wrote:
As you mentioned I don't want to have any regrets going into parenthood, this addiction has already taken so much from me and left me with so many regrets. I guess that's the stuff i need to work through to get over that guilt. The funny thing is there are some new stresses in life but at this point I am back to just being happy and thankful to get through each day clean.



I'll give you just a glimpse into what I missed..and I don't mean just one child..I mean, as things timed out, it just so happened that the only child I was even halfway sober during the early ages was my daughter, the oldest, and she's 11 now. When all of my children were in that {Age 1} through {Age 4} bracket, I was busy chasing pills. My daughter, however, I didn't start chasing pills till she was nearly 5..and that when I fell off the wagon...so to speak. My first son, when he was born in 2004, I had it all going GREAT right at his birth. I just had landed a great job at a car manufacturing facility, working for Honda -- one of the best jobs in this entire damn state. I was making KILLER money..and it took me a while to get built up at that plant..but I did it, for the first 3 years, clean and sober. Then when she got pregnant, and Joshua was born (on December 7, 2004), that VERY night he had to be rushed from one hospital to NICU at another hospital ...and my wife was in Hospital A, my newborn FIRST son was in Hospital B...and I decided to go with him and stay. That was a decision that I would eventually live to regret, because in making that decision, I also included my mom, who was really helpful in introducing me to painkillers. I actually came home picked up some clothes for the night, and told her what was going on during my drive to my house...and she asked to come with me to the hospital.
Mistake.
I allowed it, and I also asked her for just a "few" pills to get me a little energy. That started the landslide that saw me lose my job at Honda due to laying out of work..and a pill habit formed that eventually led to my marriage being on the chopping-block. We actually signed and paid for the divorce...and we were going to end it all.

Shortly after that baby came home from the hospital (On December 20, 2004 we brought him home), I kept on getting pills. And a small amount led to a LARGE amount...and it kept getting worse over time. In March of the next year we found out that my wife was RE-pregnant. So another baby was on the way..and we just had got one out of the hospital, he was only 3 months old. I should throw in that I was a damn sex-fiend when I was eating pills. I HAD to have it, and our sex life was averaging 4 to 5 times a week..without any form of protection on my end. She was on birth control, but got pregnant on the pill...and I was still chasing pills...only leading to a worse and worse fate as time went on.

That particular baby was born locally..and he had to spend a week at that hospital -- no transport to NICU -- but he just had some breathing problems and needed the extra time in the nursery after he was born, because he too, was early. My wife said that I was the most uncaring person she had ever seen about that baby..she said that she had to practically beg me to get me to take her to the hospital to see him..and that when we got there, I didn't want to stay any time at all..and I was ready to leave by the time we walked in the hospital door. She said that really upset her but never said nothing to me because she knew that something was wrong with me at that point..I wasn't myself, and the addiction was starting to get to the point of being very selfishly overbearing, to the point that I quit paying bills at home and we had to go live with her parents.

After that, it was when I really started missing out on the babies...I missed nearly ALL of their firsts. I don't remember first steps for either of my sons, first teeth..first words...I was either too high to care, or just not around. And I wasn't cheating on my wife with another woman..I was cheating on her with a fkin pill. And I didn't care.

That led us to the point of her finally catching me in the act. She actually found my stash of pills while I was asleep ...because I had hidden them quite poorly at her mom's house -- thinking that I would get up before she did and put them in my pocket. So I was caught, and now it was in the open, and she was MAD AS HELL. Especially when she asked me for how long I had been doing it, and I told her the date that I started was nearly 3 years earlier, when joshua went to NICU and my mom stayed with me at the hospital that night. she said she thought something was odd, but didn't say nothing.

That drove a stake between us that eventually broke us apart. She couldn't stand knowing that I had lied so much, and for so long...and deprived her of the life she deserved. I didn't want to be blamed, or take the blame, and didn't want to admit that I had a problem. Her parents lived in a trailer park of about 20 trailers...but HER UNCLE owned the trailer park (pretty wealthy guy). Once the word got around and back to him that I was eating pills, they immediately thought the worst. And when he got the chance (something came up missing from their house while they were gone on vacation), he accused me of stealing from them..and told me to get off of his property. I tried to tell him that I would never do that...but he flat-out told me that he didn't believe me..and that I was NOT to come over there or he'd have me picked up. So I was forced to come live in my house without any lights or water...and the only thing here that worked was the phone line.
I finally got lights/water turned back on...after about a week of pills and pawning nearly everything...and managed to get my house in "living" condition again...but when I called my wife to tell her ..and to beg her to come home..she refused. She said she wasn't ready..and that she was going to stay where she was (with her mom+dad). That made my drug-addict mind even madder...and I blew my lid. But I kept working, eating pills, and slowly getting even worse. I started taking Oxycontin right around this time...because I was eating too many lortabs per day and started getting sick from so much Aceto..so I had to resort to stronger things. Then, it happened. My wife told me she wanted to get a divorce.

We went to a lawyer, signed papers..and that started the very worst part of my addiction.

I moved some girl in the house with me..and we hadn't even finalized or finished paying for the divorce. This went on for 7 months...and I was REALLY bad during this time. I was snorting probably 500 a week..and this girl I moved in here started giving me credit cards left and right. Bought me a 11,000 bike...all sorts of shit. I was slowly killing me..and killing any pain that I had emotionally by taking even more..so that I didn't think about any of it.

I ruined that girls credit..then I finally went to treatment. I had really got bad..but I had missed SO MUCH....

So before you think that you have too many regrets...trust me..you COULD have even more. Just make sure that you keep yourself in a position to be in control of your own destiny..only you can decide what you want from life and achieve that. Nobody else can do it for you..and that innocent little baby that you're going to be a parent to...they can't tell you they want you around, or they miss you...they can only love the parent they are given. It's amazing that children / babies don't have conditional love. A child's parent can be the lowest form of damn gutter-trash..and that poor child will love the parent no matter what. Just like me, and my scenario. I was the sorriest son-of-a-bitch around, and my kids cherished me.

And now..no divorce..marriage didn't end..and we salvaged us and had a new baby...my kids REALLY adore the sober me. Am I a harsh daddy...you bet your ass...but I don't abuse my kids and they know that I love them. I let them get by with more than I should..and I know that I do...but I also let them know when I've had enough.

Hope you enjoyed my novel.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 28, 2012 10:18 pm 
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Wow. Thanks for sharing your story. I have to ask, how were you able to turn it around? It sounds like you fell pretty far and picked yourself backup, I give you all the credit in the world for that by the way, great job. I hope you realize sharing your story is helping me. What is your experience with Suboxone? How long have you / were you on Suboxone? Did counseling or group meetings play a part in your recovery?

I have to admit a part of my problem in moving on from this is that I have left myself a mess financially. I rang up close to $20,000 in debt just on getting high. I had myself in a pretty good position, personally, professionally, and financially at about age 27. At that time I moved from Boston back to my hometown which is a place I had a lot of drug connections and friends doing the wrong thing. I haven't gone bankrupt or ruined my credit exactly but I will be paying for my oxy habit for a long time financially. I really beat myself up over that, paying those bills every month hurts. Plus the $1,200 i pissed away in 5 days last week isn't helping me feel to hot.

This week has been an awakening as it progresses, the combination of having a pregnant wife and now being back fully functional at work has been stressful, I was "out sick" for 2.5 days last week and everyone keeps asking if i am feeling better now. I feel like such a fraud and a liar after last week. It really sucks. I need to get that out of me somehow and just accept that it is what it is.

It goes to show how addictive and dangerous this stuff is, like your story of having everything going great i was in the same boat at one point.

I will be headed back to my sub doctor Friday for my check up. Hopefully everything will be out of my system at that point, it will have been over 7 days. It will be interesting to see what type of schedule he keeps me on going forward, i figure i am probably a weekly visit for a while which i deserve.

Anyways, thanks again and i am really glad to hear you are with your family and doing well. I hope i am in that same spot down the road.

-Brady


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 29, 2012 6:48 am 
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Brady12 wrote:
Wow. Thanks for sharing your story. I have to ask, how were you able to turn it around? It sounds like you fell pretty far and picked yourself backup, I give you all the credit in the world for that by the way, great job. I hope you realize sharing your story is helping me. What is your experience with Suboxone? How long have you / were you on Suboxone? Did counseling or group meetings play a part in your recovery?

I have to admit a part of my problem in moving on from this is that I have left myself a mess financially. I rang up close to $20,000 in debt just on getting high. I had myself in a pretty good position, personally, professionally, and financially at about age 27.


The reasons I was able to turn things around is because when the oxycontin binge was over (after I had emptied all the credit cards the new "girlfriend" had given me and borrow all sorts of money, I started having more and more periods where I couldn't get my oxy..so more and more "downtime" or periods of withdrawals that left me in "son of a bitch" mode...so more arguments with the girl.

Shortly after Christmas I decided to tell the girl that I was addicted to pills pretty badly. She was pretty upset, but she was started to notice these accounts were filling up with cash advance fees.. Money missing and I couldn't explain where it went...bills not being paid...so questions were being asked of me and I would get pissed to have to answer them or make up lies...

I actually told the girl that I had heard of Suboxone but didn't know where to go to find it or a doctor that would prescribe it..so she started making phone calls for me. She found a methadone clinic, but when I talked to them, it was still going to be like 4 weeks before they could see me...so it would be nearly the middle of February before I could start any sort of treatment. This was a free-time for me, because the counselor told the girl on the phone that I would probably have to remain in drug-seeking until that appointment, and that when I came in that first time I needed to be dirty for the urine screen to prove I had opiates in my system.

So from the first week of January until the first week of February, I was given sorta like a free pass..my addiction was in the open, and I had an appointment, but I couldn't just quit doing pills until time to start treatment (otherwise why would I need treatment if I could quit that easily...)

My wife was pressuring me to hurry and sign the divorce papers...we had gone to the lawyer in October...here it was January..and she wanted to get it done and over with ...all that was needed was my signature. I had paid for my part..she had paid for her part..and they were just waiting on me to sign them. I just kept dragging it out.
So all of this was starting to come together, and the negatives were beginning to factor in..party time was over, and as the saying goes ...you danced the dance, now you gotta pay the piper..well, the piper was knocking on the door.
Bills were due..credit card payments...loan payments...and wife wanted me to sign those divorce papers...and I had lost my job back in November (was high on xanax, oxycontin, and something else at work one night and couldn't stop sleeping on the job)...so I got sent home. Then I got fired.

All of this was going on....and when I went to treatment and got on Suboxone...this was waiting to hit me in the face. The reality was there of everything that I had done ..especially those last 6-7 months where my wife and I had been split and I moved in some chick that I didn't even care about...when I got on Suboxone and was clear-headed for about a week, I began to just cry...thinking of everything that I had done ...the things I had lost...the hurt and pain that I caused my wife...it was WAY overwhelming. It was like waking up for a fucking dream, I swear. I would think of something I said or done, and it would literally just make me lose it, emotionally. All of that hit me like a damn ton of bricks shortly after one week of being on Suboxone. Almost too much ..but I knew what I needed to do, and I stayed clean.

Around that time, I got a phone call from my family in another state. They wanted me to come see them for a family reunion, something that we had NEVER done. So I wanted to go pretty bad...it was in April. This was near the end of February..so I didn't have long to get prepared..problem was, I didn't have a vehicle. Only a motorcycle that I couldn't drive that far with, because I wasn't a seasoned driver over long stretches of road...just a "enjoy" rider...take it out on the weekend and drive about 2 hours..then park it. Plus..it was winter.
So my only option that I could think of was asking my (soon to be ex) wife if I could take her car for the weekend..and go to my family reunion. She didn't give me an answer, but I figured she would let me do it, she was always really good to me through the entire time I was busy hurting her (living with that girl while we were still married.)...

Turns out, the financial problems were worse than my high-ass could imagine. First part of March, I couldn't continue my treatment at the methadone clinic where I had just started the Suboxone program. The program/doctor made me come EACH WEEK..and it was pretty costly...like $165/week. I couldn't get up the money, and the 5th week on the program, I missed. So of course, right back to pills I ran....
That weekend that I missed my appointment, the girl that was living here decided she was going to stay with her mom for the weekend..and I was going to stay here with my kids..so I was essentially here alone. My wife had seen me being sober and liked what she saw..she knew I was in the right frame of mind...and she knew that I didn't have the money that week to go to treatment...
It was day 2 after running out of Suboxone..and I was back to Oxycontin again....it was probably 2am on Saturday morning..and my phone rings. It's my wife. She's at work, but has been let off for the rest of the night..she knows that I'm home alone..and asked if she can come sleep on my couch, because she is too tired to drive all the way home to her mom's house. Of course I said yeah.
See, another underlying problem with that girl that was living here..I hadn't touched her since Christmas. I refused to sleep in the bed with her..and I couldn't make myself "do that"...even though I had done that with her when she moved in..it just hit me...so I told my wife about it..she had a hard time believing that I hadn't touched the girl..but I swore to her that I hadn't even slept in the same room with her.

She comes to sleep here, and that turned out being the first time we were together since we had split. She wanted more than just sleep..and I could tell she had..not been with anyone. We slept together that night..and I knew my chances of her letting me use her car for the family reunion were pretty good if that was happening..
And I was right. When it came time to go see my family, I had gone to my Suboxone appointment again the day before time to leave for the family reunion. I had my weeks supply of sub, and was headed to Mississippi..the girl was going to her mom's again..and my wife was coming here to bring me her car, and I was supposedly going to drop her off at her mom's as I left town.
Only thing, I didn't drop her off at her mom's. She went out of town with me that weekend..and we spent the weekend together.

Long story short, when we came back home, I ended it with the girl. My wife came home ..and things have been great since then.

It's never easy..usually we really ruin ourselves when we're doing all this bullshit, and it's hard to bounce back from it..but it CAN be done. It is hard to mend bridges that get burned..but they can be. And now I just think about the future..and only use the past as a learning tool..and I remember that it was a place that I never want to be at again.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 29, 2012 10:54 am 
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Glad to hear things are going well for you Jonathanm. My sister just had a baby, its the first one out of me and my siblings. I am so glad I got off all of the crap before she was born. I do not ever want here to known the addict me, especially the one towards the end... opiates and coke. Yuck.

Brady - I have a strong fear of debt.. I am not in any, but I think it is holding me back right now. I need to accept the fact that I will go into debt in order to get my masters. Also, hangovers can be very dangerous. I have only gotten a slight one two times since I started to have beers here and there again and I have found that I tend to crave a bit more. Often its more of a craving for weed, but that is how it starts.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 29, 2012 11:46 am 
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Jonathan your story helps me so much. My husband has only known about my drug use for a few weeks now. I have been on subs for about a week. My biggest trigger has always been stress, and like you I have dug a huge hole for us financially spending so much buying pills. The past week has been great mostly, but a few nights this week my husband has been very frustrated with us being so broke...finding out what bills have not been paid because I used the money to get high instead. Those times are really tough, and I am having a really hard time dealing with that stress. I keep telling myself it will get better now that I'm not spending money for pills, but I'm afraid that my husband will get sick of dealing with all of this and leave...Of course he says he won't, he has been great. He gets frustrated sometimes and we might fight but it's always over quickly. I just don't know how to handle all of that yet! I go into terrible cravings every time something stresses me out...I guess I need to get into some kind of counseling. Anyway, thanks for sharing your story.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 29, 2012 12:52 pm 
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qhorsegal wrote:
Jonathan your story helps me so much. My husband has only known about my drug use for a few weeks now. I have been on subs for about a week. My biggest trigger has always been stress, and like you I have dug a huge hole for us financially spending so much buying pills. The past week has been great mostly, but a few nights this week my husband has been very frustrated with us being so broke...finding out what bills have not been paid because I used the money to get high instead. Those times are really tough, and I am having a really hard time dealing with that stress. I keep telling myself it will get better now that I'm not spending money for pills, but I'm afraid that my husband will get sick of dealing with all of this and leave...Of course he says he won't, he has been great. He gets frustrated sometimes and we might fight but it's always over quickly. I just don't know how to handle all of that yet! I go into terrible cravings every time something stresses me out...I guess I need to get into some kind of counseling. Anyway, thanks for sharing your story.


Are you seeing anybody to help you deal with this? A therapist or Counselor? That should really help. Heck, some people even find that 12 step meetings help them with this stuff. I urge you to find some kind of support from outside your immediate family... guilt and shame are some of the biggest triggers from relapse. I know I had to work at getting over mine quite a bit, and I didn't even consider my use "bad"... it was just me not being able to cope. It wasn't until I got help that I could finally get over it.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 29, 2012 9:29 pm 
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qhorsegal wrote:
Jonathan your story helps me so much. My husband has only known about my drug use for a few weeks now. I have been on subs for about a week. My biggest trigger has always been stress, and like you I have dug a huge hole for us financially spending so much buying pills. The past week has been great mostly, but a few nights this week my husband has been very frustrated with us being so broke...finding out what bills have not been paid because I used the money to get high instead. Those times are really tough, and I am having a really hard time dealing with that stress. I keep telling myself it will get better now that I'm not spending money for pills, but I'm afraid that my husband will get sick of dealing with all of this and leave...Of course he says he won't, he has been great. He gets frustrated sometimes and we might fight but it's always over quickly. I just don't know how to handle all of that yet! I go into terrible cravings every time something stresses me out...I guess I need to get into some kind of counseling. Anyway, thanks for sharing your story.


I also urge you to address this. If for whatever reason you can't afford counseling or just want to augment it, there are great addiction recovery workbooks available in all the big bookstores and some on Amazon. They help you to figure out your own unique cravings and triggers and how to learn to deal with them and learn new coping skills. I think it's extremely valuable and important, yet quite simple - a very good way to start recovery.

Good luck with everything.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 29, 2012 9:41 pm 
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Thanks so much Stephen and HatMaker...

I called today and found some numbers of counselors in my area. I think I have narrowed it down to the one I am going to use, I'm going to try and get ahold of her tomorrow and set up an appointment for next week. Thanks for the advice/concern. I am hoping that when I talk to her I will find out that she is supportive of suboxone use...Should I bring that up with her before I schedule my appointment?


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 31, 2012 2:02 pm 
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qhorsegal wrote:
Thanks so much Stephen and HatMaker...

I called today and found some numbers of counselors in my area. I think I have narrowed it down to the one I am going to use, I'm going to try and get ahold of her tomorrow and set up an appointment for next week. Thanks for the advice/concern. I am hoping that when I talk to her I will find out that she is supportive of suboxone use...Should I bring that up with her before I schedule my appointment?


That is your decision. I have found that most opposition from Suboxone comes from the 12 step crowd and their are many counselors who themselves are steppers. This does not automatically mean they will be opposed to Sub though. I had one that was a rigid stepper, but accepted my use of Sub. The 12 Step mantra is officially "whatever works"... however, some of them take this to mean "whatever works as long as its in "the program"


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Fond Du Lac Psychiatry
Dr. Jeffrey Junig, M.D., Ph.D.

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