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PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2013 6:13 pm 
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Hey everyone, my name is Brian, I'm 30 years old and I've been on Suboxone for exactly 3 years now.

It all started in 2006, when I was on the cusp of graduating from college and found the rigors my final year too hard to swallow (no pun intended). I was introduced to a little pill called Vicoden, which I was prescribed in the past but never really cared for. After taking a few pills to ease my stress, I began justifying my high dosage use of about 3 to 4 high milligram pills per day. After about a year, I found myself upping the dosage to Norco's, and it was down hill from there.

I won't lie, I loved the feeling. The urge to do things came to be naturally, I found myself excelling at work and receiving promotions often. I found managing my relationship with my long distance girlfriend (she was attending UC Berkeley, I live in Los Angeles) was much easier. She knew I was a writer at heart, and although I was working at a Law Firm, I found myself delving into my passion for writing even more when I would take the Norco's. From a habit that was a weekend deal, I ended up popping 5-7 pills a day because in my mind, I assumed it was "making me better". I thought of them as my own personal "NZT's" (if you've seen Limitless, you'll understand that reference).

I became more creative, more attentive, more at ease with my life. Thus, I was justifying it, the fact that I was spending 60-70% of my pay on these pills became a burden that was too much for me to handle. I had student loans to pay back and a long distance girlfriend that required a lot of gas for driving or on occasion, a plane ticket. I risked a lot, had a street supplier who was always around and practically my neighbor, so getting them was never a problem. I always found myself re-loading when I still had a weeks worth of pills at my helm. It became too overwhelming, and thus a light was shun into my dark tunnel.

My buddy, who had just quit himself, told me that he had gone to a clinic and was prescribed Suboxone. I had no clue what it was, but he gave me 2 8mg pills. I shelved them aside in my closet for 3 months before I realized that they may be put to good use. When I first told myself that I was going to quit, it was due to the fact that I just could no longer sacrifice my income and my well being. My work became strenuous and I was on the cusp of quitting to pursue a bigger goal in mind. I was also having issues with my GF as she had just moved back to LA from Berkeley and things just weren't the same. I partially blamed myself, because I had my ups and downs, my mood swings. That "great" feeling I had the first few years was no longer great. It became something that I needed just to feel normal, which is usually the case. After my first dosage of Norco's in the morning, everything else just didn't feel good at all. Taking 7 of them a day was a habit I knew I had to cut out, and I did. I finally decided on trying the Suboxone my friend once gave me.

I wasn't familiar with how they worked, so I took his advice. I cut them into 4 smaller pieces and dissolved one of the pieces under my tongue. I was elated, it worked! No longer did I have withdrawals, and they lasted almost all day! I was pleasantly surprised and decided I needed more, so I went to his clinic and was subsequently prescribed them after a thorough checkup and knew that my nightmare was coming to an end. Little did I know, the nightmare had just shifted into another gear.

So I began taking the Subs, 8mg per day, the withdrawals were gone, but my will was also waning. I found myself doing worse at work and ultimately quit, and at this point, my relationship had dissolved. I had stopped writing and lost the motivation to be myself, rather forming a shield as a shell of who I was. I blamed the Norco's, I knew it was a façade, but I enjoyed it enough to continue making excuses. I continued taking the Subs, and 3 years later, I have decided that I've had enough.

No matter how often I've tried to run my own business, my own website, or to write again, the same mojo that I once had just seems like it is no longer in me. 3 years of Subs have helped me stay away from Norco's, but they've only been a substitution of sorts. My doctor visit cost me $75-$125 per, and the Subs run high in my neck of the woods. I was still spending a good amount of money, and being self employed, I had to make sure I wasn't falling into the same financial trap that I found myself in during my 4 year stint with opiates.

I finally told myself after tapering down to 4-6mg per day that I was through. I realized that the morning headaches I would always wake up with were a cause of the Subs. I found out that the Subzero method of masking it around my mouth after it's been drenched with hot water was helping me with the daily headaches, but was still causing me to toss and turn at night. I realized that by taking a little piece at night, my headaches weren't be as prevalent and I would sleep sound. But see, this is when I knew truly that it has become a problem and that I will never feel "normal" until I truly admit that the Subs must go.

My current scrip has run its course and I felt the urge to head to my doctor, and I did, only to find out that he was no longer working at that clinic, and I had the option of seeing another doctor on Tuesday. Well, rather than making an appointment for Tuesday, I decided to walk out of there with my head held high and research ways to quit Subs without dealing with the brunt of the withdrawals symptoms regularly. I understand that I'm going to have withdrawals, but I'd rather go through the pain than deal with the pain I have held within'. The physical and emotion aspect will not hurt my resolve, I am confident I can get through this and become a better man when it's all said and done.

I'm now in my 30's, my current relationship is very easy going, I am self employed and work from my home office, and have no excuses otherwise. So I did some research and found a Vitamin treatment that will help ease off some of the pain.

I went to my local Vitamin Shoppe and purchased Solgar Vitamin B, C, and E. I also picked up some futurebiotics Hi Energy Multi for Men, Relax & Sleep, and Living Energy. Lastly, I got a bottle of Ion Liv-Flush. I know I'm going to feel weak, disoriented at times, drippy, cold, and whatever else comes with the quitting. But I feel like the Vitamins will help, and if there is anyone who has gone down the route of using Vitamins, I would love to hear your story/opinion on how they worked for you.

I'm ready to move on, after 4 years of being consumed by opiates and 3 with Subs, my life is ready to be lived without the need for these things. I want to be motivated to write again, want to be more active in my line of work, feel the urge to enroll into Law School, and transform my existence into one of meaning, and not one of dependence on these pills.

Thank you for reading my story, I hope to hear any other tips, stories, or advice you can offer! My journey begins now, and I'm ready, oh, I'm ready.


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2013 6:36 pm 
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Hi,,,

I think you should read this,,,, it'd be mean to NOT give you any clues on what others have experienced......

this is called "jumped without a parachute"
this is EXACTLY what you are getting ready to do

http://www.suboxforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=5965


this one's called "sub w/d day three, worse yet to come?"

http://www.suboxforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=7207


you might have very mild withdrawls, and I hope that you do...... but I think you should prepare yourself for the battle of your
life in case it's pretty hard.......

And, here's one more post,,,, by someone who tapered down to an extremely low dose, jumped and was very sucessful,
but came back and posted just a few days ago about a full-blow relapse.....
that happens way too often.

please read his post.
http://www.suboxforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=7917
And, have YOU thought about what YOU will do when you crave???

Just trying to help... I don't want to see you fail,,, informations IS POWER..... and your gonna need some power, friend

good luck

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anyone can give up,
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hold it together, when everyone would understand if you fell apart
That's TRUE STRENGTH
http://almostoneyearclean.blogspot.com/


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2013 6:39 pm 
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Hey Brian,

Welcome to the fourm!!

Did you stop Suboxone from 4 - 6mg per day? How long ago did you stop?

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2013 6:44 pm 
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Amber -

Thank you, I'll go through those threads to get an idea of what I have in store. I know it won't be an easy battle, not by a long shot, but I have faith in will power and believe that we can control our destiny by truly believing in ourselves, despite any physical or mental anguish. I've had Bacterial Meningitis and was hospitalized for 7 days, kidney stones and was in for 4 days, both times prescribed vicoden. I've dealt with physical pains before, but those two ordeals were nothing in comparison to quitting opiates, so I understood the magnitude of the situation I'm currently in. I'm in it for the long haul and will take any/all advice you guys give me as valuable information.

Romeo -

Hi, thanks for the reply, glad to be here. I was taking an average of 6mg per day until about mid 2012, when I tapered down to 4gm. Today was my final day, I have no more left, my prescription is done and I haven't re-upped. I would take 2mg in the day and 2mg in the afternoon. But in recent months, since about November, I have been taking an extra 2mg before I sleep as it helped me sleep better and wake up with less headaches in the morning. So I've basically found myself at the 6mg mark again though to be quite honest, I can manage 4mg just fine without taking the extra 2mg before sleep. At this point, I have definitely tapered down from my usage in 2010, 11, and early 12, but I still mentally feel like I need them to function. It's a cold turkey mission for me, and my current substitute is a multitude of vitamins that I've read will help wane off some of the symptoms.


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2013 7:34 pm 
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well you sound determined and THATS GREAT~~~~

Please do go thru the links I left you, above.... If anything it SHOULD give you some encouragement
at the very least.......

There really is a TON of valuable information around here...... and valuable lessons to be learned, from
other's mistakes........

tapering IS impossible for SOME people.


Here's a thread I dug up , for ya, with someone else who jumped from 6mg
it's not really long, but definitely a good example of what most people post about, when jumping..........

http://suboxforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=5745


So, this link and the ones above is your HOMEWORK, okay??? :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

don't forget to report back!!!

[marq=right]~~~~GOOD LUCK~~~~ [/marq]

_________________
anyone can give up,
its the easiest thing in the world to do, but to
hold it together, when everyone would understand if you fell apart
That's TRUE STRENGTH
http://almostoneyearclean.blogspot.com/


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2013 7:51 pm 
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ONE more thing..........
Here's a good write-up on withdrawl, by Dr. Junig,,, I posted the link, here if you want to read more,
there's a few different ones on withdrawl/taper..... And then I pasted the whole article, below.....
Okay, IM DONE NOW!!! I promise!!! at least for today!!! :wink: :wink: :wink:

http://www.suboxonetalkzone.com/withdra ... enorphine/



Withdrawal from Suboxone or Buprenorphine

by J T Junig on 2012/09/23

I received a question from a reader about withdrawal symptoms from stopping buprenorphine. My answer has relevance to opioid withdrawal in general, and to a common misconception about the duration of withdrawal symptoms.

The message:

Basically I quit Suboxone about 18 days ago. When I decided to quit I was taking about 8 to 12mgs per day. I got into taking Suboxone from trying to quit a Percocet habit that developed after a car wreck. I was stuck on Suboxone for near 3 years before I finally realized the person I thought I was really wasn’t the person I expected myself to become. So I decided I had enough and quitting Suboxone should be easier than quitting Percocet. I still laugh over that because I should have educated myself better before I landed myself where I am now. I am starting to feel marginally better but I have zero energy and my depression is off the charts. . . My question is because Suboxone has such a strong half-life being a partial instead of full agonist, how many more days weeks months do I have to suffer through before I can expect to return to normal? I am terrified of relapsing and have set a zero tolerance for myself. Hopefully I am strong enough and smart enough to stay away but is there anything extra I can do to help ease anxiety and the depression? Honestly I feel like I live in a personal hell no one gets or understands. I was just hoping u could give me some advice. Thanks for reading my message.

My answer:

There are many misconceptions about withdrawal and buprenorphine. Many people make the mistake of thinking that the long half-life of Suboxone lengthens withdrawal. The long half-life of buprenorphine reduces the intensity of withdrawal, but has a very minor effect on the duration of withdrawal symptoms.

Before going there, though, I’ll comment about where you are, and where you came from. I admit to feeling a bit annoyed when people write about being ‘stuck on Suboxone.’ I’m not sure why it bothers me as much as it does; I don’t receive kickbacks from Reckitt Benckiser, and I certainly had no part in inventing Suboxone. If I put words on my annoyance, it would be something about looking a gift horse in the mouth—a saying that nobody seems to say anymore.

Suboxone didn’t cause your problems; YOU caused your problems, or perhaps Percocet did. Suboxone bailed you out; it allowed you to live to fight another day, rather than go down the tubes and end up in prison or dead, from oxycodone addiction. People often write the same thing— about being stuck– on my forum, and I have the same reaction there. It seems to be so unappreciative or irresponsible, to blame the very thing that kept you alive.

For the people who write ‘I should have just stopped oxycodone without taking Suboxone’, I point out that it is clearly easier to stop Suboxone than oxycodone. How do I know? I know because we are having a discussion about tapering Suboxone! Nobody addicted to opioids tapers off oxycodone (everyone tries, but nobody is successful). At least SOME people CAN taper off Suboxone. Don’t believe me? Think it would have been easier to taper off oxycodone? Then you can just change to oxycodone and get on with the taper! NOTE—I do NOT recommend doing so; oxycodone is MUCH more addictive than buprenorphine, and much more likely to kill you!

The other reason the attitude bothers me is because after treating people addicted to opioids for the past 7 years, I’ve watched so many people from utter despair to stabilized on Suboxone, and then become convinced that they aren’t ‘clean enough’ on Suboxone. I’ve watched them taper off, and I’ve seen their obituaries a few years later, or received desperate emails describing the loss of a 70 K per year job because of a recent felony conviction. Meanwhile I have a number of patients who are content to treat their addiction for years, as their lives get far better than they ever dreamed.



For those still reading, I’ll explain why half-life is not a big contributor to the duration of withdrawal. If we took any person on any opiate, then suddenly and completely removed the opiate from the body, the brain pathways that are stimulated by opiates (the endorphin pathways) would suddenly become quiet. As those pathways stop firing, the person feels horrible. After all, the pathways help keep everyday-sensations from being painful and help elevate mood, so the opposite happens when they stop.

As the person used higher and higher doses of opioids over time, tolerance developed at the receptor level. In essence, the receptor for opioids became less sensitive to ALL opioids. Receptors that are not sensitive to oxycodone, are also not sensitive to hydrocodone, and not sensitive to the brain’s own opioids—endorphins. In a withdrawing person, there is little or no activity in opioid pathways because the receptors, where endorphins usually act, are no longer responding to endorphins.

In order for withdrawal to end, the body must make NEW receptors, and implant the receptors in the cell membrane. That takes weeks to occur. The process is initiated by withdrawal itself. When the neurons in endorphin pathways are not firing at their normal rate, the neurons respond to that lack of firing by turning on the machinery involved in making new receptors. In other words, the pain of withdrawal MUST occur, if receptor renewal is to be triggered.

The duration of withdrawal is a function of how long the body takes to make new receptors– NOT the amount of time to clear the body of the substance. Some people mistakenly think that withdrawal ends when the drug is gone– and that it is ‘stuck in the bones’ or things like that. All of that makes interesting reading, but it is not what is going on. It takes 8-12 weeks for the body to make new receptors, so that is how long opiate withdrawal usually lasts.

Suboxone DOES have a long half-life. That long half-life causes the initial withdrawal to be less severe because instead of turning off instantly, the opioid pathways become less and less active over days. So instead of the sudden onset of severe symptoms, the misery takes several days to peak. This may result in the entire process lasting an extra day or two, but that extra time is not relevant compared to the weeks that it takes to generate new receptors.

I imagine that people get different impressions of withdrawal because of the different patterns of misery from different opioids. When I came off fentanyl, I was very, very sick for the first few days. I could not walk, literally, and my systolic blood pressure never got above 90. A week later, I could walk, and so things seemed a lot better. But I still got winded after 20 feet, and I couldn’t eat for many weeks. I lost 30 pounds in the process, and I was skinny to start! Buprenorphine withdrawal starts more slowly, but then ramps up higher after a few days, and then slowly goes down. I see people come off all sorts of opioids; the pattern of misery varies, but the total misery is about the same in each case.

Specific to the writer, one should anticipate 2-3 months of fatigue and loss of appetite after stopping buprenorphine, similar to other opioids. The first few days are a bit less severe with buprenorphine than with, say, oxycodone, because the drug is leaving the body more gradually.

A final comment—I worry whenever I read that a person’s strategy for staying sober involves being ‘smart’ or ‘strong’. The only way I know to stop opioids is by coming to the full realization of one’s powerlessness over them, as in the first step of AA/NA. Being too strong or smart only gets in the way of that realization. In my opinion fear is the best approach, as in ‘if I try, even once, I will die— and it will ALWAYS be that way.’
I wish you well,
.
Read more at http://www.suboxonetalkzone.com/withdra ... qko5ow8.99

_________________
anyone can give up,
its the easiest thing in the world to do, but to
hold it together, when everyone would understand if you fell apart
That's TRUE STRENGTH
http://almostoneyearclean.blogspot.com/


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2013 8:05 pm 
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Welcome to the forum!

Thank you for such a well written post. You did a wonderful job explaining the feelings opiates give us when we first begin taking them.

Unfortunately, your story is a common one around here. Many of us wanted to continue feeling so at ease with life so we had to up our dosage. As you know, that is a fast road to hell.

I worry though when I read posts like yours.....You say that you want to come off the sub so you can get your mojo back and feel motivated again. In my opinion, quitting sub is not going to magically solve these issues. Changing your behaviors and your thinking errors, helping others, and having a good support system is where you should start. Suboxone allows us a period of physical stability to put these changes in place. Only then, I believe, should people taper and quit.

I am on 8 mg sub and feel all those things you say you want back. Its only because I changed that it was possible.


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2013 9:28 pm 
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Brian said, " I have faith in will power and believe that we can control our destiny by truly believing in ourselves, despite any physical or mental anguish."

I quit Suboxone from about the same dose you're quitting from and I'll be the first to admit, will power will get you a long way. I'm about as stubborn as they come and I made up my mind that I was done with Suboxone, and I was. It was a long hard road, but to me, it was so worth it.

The only word of caution I have for you right now is that will power alone isn't enough to stay clean. Using will power to get off drugs is great, but once clean, you're more than likely going to need some other skill sets to help you stay clean.

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2013 10:50 pm 
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Amber -

Thanks for taking the time to post those links, I'm free all day tomorrow and since it's my first full day in literally 3 years without a sub, I'm going to read through all of them and hopefully get an idea of the psyche of others who are going through or have gone through the same ordeal. I'll be honest, I haven't gone a day without it in 36 months, so it's not like I feel will power alone will get me through it, but as Romeo said in his post, being stubborn helps! But I truly appreciate your willingness to assist, it shows that people are always willing to help and that's something you can never take away from decent minded people. I'll keep you posted on how I do day to day.

Orange doll -

Hey, thanks for the compliment, and you're absolutely correct in your assessment, it will take a lot for me to fully kick the habit but at the same time, while I was on it, it didn't hinder me from doing my daily tasks just fine. I think my problem stems from the fact that early on in the process of taking the suboxone, I found myself comparing the feeling I got from the subs to that of the Norco's, and clearly, I was setting myself up for failure because I was clearly looking at it the wrong way. Once I began realizing that my problem stemmed from an issue that had more to do with myself and less to do with the subs, I found that I was still able and willing and excelled in many things I wasn't able to excel in while I was an opiate addict. Also, it made me feel like I had succeeded and I was proud of that, I really was, still am. I have friends who are opiate addicts and I would recommend suboxone as I feel it would help them, but I would likely suggest that they be put on a legitimate taper program and to ensure that the Doctor isn't just collecting their money without some sort of end resolve. Ultimately, I absolutely agree with you, the subs weren't what killed my motivation, it was the excuses I made that did that. I think the subs are a microcosm of the bigger issue, that I'm seemingly dependent on something. It was prevalent with my ex-gf in Berkeley, I felt after we broke up that I was no longer motivated to write. Again, it was a dependence. Which to be quite honest, I've always been a free spirit and found solace in being my own man, but when it came to my passions, I point in another direction, ignorantly.

Romeo -

I got to tell you, I had considered quitting in the past, but my stubbornness led me in the opposite direction. I told myself, ok, if I quit now, I'm not going to be able to complete project A, thus I wouldn't be able to make money on project B, and in turn, my GF isn't going to want to be around me for the holidays, etc., etc. It was always an excuse, but I've finally come to grips that being stubborn and quitting despite the ill effects is something that I'm going to have to live with and that's a pact I've made with myself, and plan on sticking to it. Thanks for the advice about needing some other skill sets, I'm planning on exercising a lot more, even if I'm completely fatigued, and hope that these vitamins can ease some of the pains.


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 06, 2013 12:27 am 
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Amber,

I just have to say you are totally awesome to post all that stuff. That article by Dr J on withdrawal is one of my favorites. People seem to want a quick fix to get off opiates and Dr. J explains it so well. No matter what opiate you come off you are going to feel withdrawal symptoms for 8 to 12 weeks. And that process MUST occur for your brain to get the signal to start producing endorphins.

Krazygreen, I do wish you the best of luck. I look forward to hearing about your progress. Just know that if it gets too tough you could always take a mg or two and taper from there. Some people get into the microgram range before thy jump. I wouldnt consider that a failure. Keep us updated!


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 06, 2013 3:35 pm 
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Day 1 -


My luck, I woke up today with a severe cold. My throat is really bad, I'm coughing heavily, and my nose is stuffy. I felt somewhat like I was going to get a cold last night as it was raining heavy, but I didn't think it would be this bad. In any case, I took some Nyquil, ate a few of the Vitamins I purchased, including Vitamin B, C, and Multi-Vitamins, and ate an orange. I feel light headed but not dizzy. My stomach is turning and I feel weak. Now the issue is whether or not to contribute this feeling to the cold I have or to the withdrawals. Maybe its both, but I won't truly know until my cold has been quarantined, which I'm working on hopefully managing by tomorrow (I have a meeting I must attend for a potential client). I'll continue looking for symptoms and work arounds. I'm going to take the time today to read through the threads Amber posted, to get a better idea of what I have in store.

Brian


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 06, 2013 8:23 pm 
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Time is seemingly going so slow.

I feel blah, but not to the point of no return. I know it's going to get worse, so I'm preparing for the worse. At the same time, I have caught a cold and only feel fatigued.

I was just working out for a few minutes to get some energy after taking a bunch of vitamins (which thus far have helped with the cold but not the fatigue). While I was working out, I noticed a painting on my wall that honestly I hadn't paid attention to in the past in detail. I hadn't noticed that it has a quote on it that says "Change is...to give up what we are, to become what we could be". I stared at this quote for a minute or so and went at it with the weights, and came to the realization that I must continue fighting this off. I'm worried I'm going to relapse, and not on Subs, but the Norco's. I feel the urge within' me, and I'm weak right now, I'm not thinking clearly, and I have to believe that being weak isn't necessarily a weakness, but a realization that this is going to be much harder than anticipated. And that's fine, it gives me my fireproof will power to push forward despite the fear.


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 06, 2013 9:30 pm 
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The urge, the yearning, the pain, the struggling, the fear within', but I don't act like it isn't here, because when all is said and done, we can't feed them all. We strive to achieve greatness, without knowing our limits, or accepting them without fear. This is where I am, laying in the midst of the ruins, with the crumbling ashes around me falling to my feet, the prey of yesterday becomes the prayer of tomorrow. We must love, at all times, to experience the truth of life in the universes greatest of systems. Trust in oneself, but don't fall victim to the soulless being that linger inside. Throw out doubt, we trust that our terrain will be full of cracks and kick rocks, the ocean shining off the suns gleaming glare, the sand settling into our feet, with our toes shivering from the pain we endure daily, excruciating and real.


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 06, 2013 11:07 pm 
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krazygreen wrote:
I'm worried I'm going to relapse, and not on Subs, but the Norco's. I feel the urge within' me, and I'm weak right now, I'm not thinking clearly, and I have to believe that being weak isn't necessarily a weakness, but a realization that this is going to be much harder than anticipated. And that's fine, it gives me my fireproof will power to push forward despite the fear.



I feel for ya man..... I do NOT envy your position.......

but this is scary that your already thinking of the norco's when it's day one.....
I'm NOT trying to be mean, I'm just saying how I see things.....

I know your tired of maintenance, and everything that comes with it.....

Tapering for awhile would definitely be a GOOD decision, but thats YOUR decision to make.

All too often we get people posting on here, also that JUMP and consider taking a sliver of suboxone as a "relapse"

I just don't see it that way.
your withdrawing,,, after being outta the withdrawl "game" for months or even YEARS in your case. Of course it's gonna
hit like a ton of bricks.

It's YOUR DECISION..... It sounds like you want to move forward and I encourage you to do WHATEVER
it is that makes YOU THINK YOU'LL BE SUCESSFUL

there's been a few people that have tried jumping, and after a couple of days, realize it's way more than they
can handle without a relapse back to their drug of choice, and do a really great job of tapering.
Im TRYING to find one of their threads!!!!

Anyways,,,, it's not the worst thing in the world , ya know?
it doesn't mean your not strong, or not a warrior.... this opiate addiction is a real killer man.....

and they say, the counselors and doctors say,,, the addict that's clean for years, when they relapse, it's like
THEY NEVER QUIT in the first place, and that's why it's so deadly.....

Best of luck dude.
and I'll keep looking for one of those threads.... I know they are around.

_________________
anyone can give up,
its the easiest thing in the world to do, but to
hold it together, when everyone would understand if you fell apart
That's TRUE STRENGTH
http://almostoneyearclean.blogspot.com/


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 06, 2013 11:57 pm 
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Okay, I know it isn't much but here's the posts/replies I found that might be helpful
I put a few things in RED

~~~Qoute ~~~~
The whole taper thing was hell, was constantly having cravings, and so I would just end up taking more of my Suboxone,running out at the end of the month, having to lie to my Sub doc and the pharmacy, paying for pills because my insurance wouldn't cover it so soon, blah, blah, blah.
One day, about 3 weeks ago, I just decided out of no where, that I was freaking done. Im starting up school again in a couple months, my marriage was falling apart, have 3 small kids (5yrs, 3 yrs, and 1 yr) and 26 years old. I completely stopped taking it one day, threw out the medication, and was done. At the time I was on anywhere from 1-2 8mg subs a day. ~~~~~~


If you were taking more than you needed to deal with cravings, lying to your doctor and pharmacist, paying cash early- these are all red flag behaviors. Things that signal trouble on the horizon and then out of nowhere you just decide to stop the medication all together? It is safe to say you jumped off a very high dose of Suboxone and while you may be dealing with it, I don't think you realize just how long it is going to take to truly recover from what you have done. Before you get upset, understand I know what I am talking about because I jumped off a high dose of Suboxone too. At nearly two months off Sub, I realized I made a huge mistake and went back on it so that I could properly taper off the drug when I felt the time was right. Sixty days off of Sub and I had thought the worst was behind me, I was working so hard at convincing my friends and myself everything was great, I never stopped to realize how much PAWS (post acute withdrawal syndrome) was affecting me. The PAWS did not even kick in til I was about six weeks out.

Post Acute Withdrawal Syndrome (PAWS) has three major areas of impact upon the individual:

Cognitive: PAWS creates many difficulties with cognitive processes. Racing or recycling thoughts are often noted and found to be highly distracting by the individual. Thoughts may be scattered and even a lack of coherence at times may be present. Others may notice a certain rigidity of thinking and lack of required flexibility Concentration and attention span may be impaired. Confusion may be present. Prioritization by the individual will likely be a difficulty for six to twelve months.

Emotional: PAWS tends to create in individuals either a lack of or excess of emotion. The individual may be hyper reactive emotionally. Even small events of little consequence may loom large in his/her mind and create strong reactions. This may lead others to suspect a relapse or create social withdrawal. Shame emotions may be noted. Conversely, The individual may notice a numbing of emotions. The inability to feel impairs proper emotional bonding with friends and family during the early recovery process.

Memory: Memory is frequently the most noted PAWS problem. Recently learned information may be quickly forgotten. Information may be retained for a short time (days/weeks) and then lost, requiring the individual to learn it anew. As recovery requires inspection of the past, the individual may discover that developmental and childhood memories are totally absent or only remembered in a spotty fashion.

No I don't think anyone who stops sub is doomed to fail, but I felt if anyone could jump off a high dose and deal with it well- it was me. I always felt I was strong enough to deal with whatever that would bring, and I was wrong. The symptoms listed above are REAL and I did experience them much to my surprise. I thought I was losing my mind- it scared the hell out of me. You just can't fight the truth, please be aware of what I mentioned and realize there is no shame in taking time to get well.
I am in school also and I knew there was NO WAY I could have gotten through classes in the frame of mind I was in when I jumped off Sub. I tapered off Cymbalta back in November last year and spent the entire month of December getting back to normal from that. I am glad I did, but Subxone is going to require more time and patience.
Again, I wish you well, but hope you reconsider your decision. I firmly believe you are nowhere near done dealing with what jumping off that dose of Suboxone is going to do to you. If you want to talk more, feel free to PM me.



Second one ~~~~


Sarahsweet

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Thank you, tearj3rker, for your support and adivce.

I wanted to get on and update as well. It's been 7 1/2 weeks off Suboxone, (and narcotic free as well!). I am doing great. From week 4-6 were hard. Physically I felt ok, but emotionally I felt numb, couldn't get happy, couldn't get sad. All I could get was IRRITATED! This past week I am starting to feel more now, and feeling better emotionally too. Either way, I have tons of support and have found that these things work well for me:
--3 main meals a day. Eating healthy too. Drinking lots of water.
--Jogging 3-5 times a week.
--Writing in my journal EXACTLY how I feel. The good, bad, and the ugly.
--Still seeing my doctor whom originally prescribed me the Suboxone. He wants me to keep seeing him for probably the next year, just for the support, advice, etc. It is so funny to go see him and not get any prescriptions!
--Still seeing my therapist (whom works in the same office as my Sub doc. whom actually is his wife) and this is HUGE.
--Being real with my friends and family about how things REALLY are going.
--Keep thinking of the good things to come ahead. My kids are getting bigger (5yrs, 3yrs, 1yr) and will be getting easier (less exsausting, anyway). And starting school up again in a month.

So, yea. I haven't had ANY cravings, however. Thank god. And to be honest, I know, for a forsure fact, that no matter how terrible I feel, I will never take another narcotic again.

Thank you, everyone for your support, hope everyone is doing well. --Sarah

THIRD~~~~~

junkie781

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Sarahsweet wrote:


And to be honest, I know, for a forsure fact, that no matter how terrible I feel, I will never take another narcotic again.
(end quote)


I don't want this to come out the wrong way, and I don't want you to misunderstand me, so I'm going to qualify what I am about to tell you a bit first:

1. I am extremely happy for you.
2. I think it's great that you've been able to get off suboxone and stay clean for this long
3. I wish you nothing but continued success

Now, with that out of the way, I want to tell you, as a guy who is pushing 50 years old and who has been a drug addict for well over 30 years, that the statement I quoted above is an extremely dangerous way of thinking that could eventually lead to the type of complacency that results in relapse.

If I had a dime for every time I knew as a "forsure fact" that I would never take another narcotic again, I could retire right now and never work another day in my life.

PLEASE do not believe that you can just make such a proclamation and it's going to be true just because you say so.

Look, again, I WANT you to succeed. But don't be cocky about your recovery. Take it from someone who has been down this road several DOZEN times before. It's not a good way to think at all.

I would urge you to confine your confidence about your ability to stay off drugs to ONE DAY. You have a much, much greater chance of relapsing when you convince yourself that you'll "never take narcotics again"

Don't box yourself in like that. For example, are you going to refuse narcotics if you break your leg? Trust me, you won't. I don't know anyone with a higher threshold for pain than me, and my broken leg had me BEGGING for drugs. And that's just one example of many.....

It's a really really slippery psychological slope you're putting yourself on with that kind of statement and I don't want you to have to make the same mistakes I made, that's the ONLY reason I am even mentioning this.

Congratulations on all you've achieved so far and I hope you will stay strong TODAY and thanks for letting us know how you're doing.




link to thread, even though the useful stuff, (or my opinion) is above....
http://suboxforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=2187

_________________
anyone can give up,
its the easiest thing in the world to do, but to
hold it together, when everyone would understand if you fell apart
That's TRUE STRENGTH
http://almostoneyearclean.blogspot.com/


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2013 12:08 am 
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FOUND ONE

here's one piece.
It's Over


Hi all,

My decision of returning to Suboxone therapy was a difficult one. Certainly not one that I would have chosen at 16 days off sub.
This was my sencond unsuccesful jump getting down to .1 this last time. I was induced this afternoon.

In short, it was psychiatric withdrawal features that got me. And I'd say for sure potential for relapse on legal mail-order herbal opiates, none of which my doc had heard of.

Today was a brutul day, going through the whole process of testing, filling the RX, and finally being induced. Having spent the last 4 days in near-inpatient condition, this was a great relief. Initially the doc refused to Rx me anything.

While I hoped to walk away from opiates the way I have with alcohol and many other drugs, it's not the same. Not by a long shot.
Many sites poo-poo Dr. J's sentiments on maintenance therapy, but the fact of the matter is that it IS a powerful tool for keeping the illness at bay.

I am a pain patient, but for maintenance purposes I'd like to be at about 2mg. With time and trust I hope that I might be switched to generic subutex. Doc may not offer due to trust issues, but maybe after some time and more clean drug screens.

I looked at the links page but was unable to find the Assistance program, couldn't find it on the suboxone site either...
could someone please tell me where to find it (whereby the doc can have 3 pts on assistance)

Thx,
Runner

LINK
http://suboxforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=2666&highlight=


My favorite part.........
junkie781

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Long Time Member

Don't beat yourself up about getting back on the sub. And may I also suggest that you steer clear of those sites that "poo poo on Dr. J's maintenance theories?"

Look, everyone's entitled to their opinions.

My sister in law is dead. She overdosed on Oxycontin. Her 17 year old daughter found her on the kitchen floor, with her eyes rolled up into her head and a little bit of white foam coming out her mouth. She was ice cold and had been dead for many hours.....long enough that her bladder had also emptied itself onto the floor and rigor mortis had set in.

I provided that level of detail to illustrate a point: You can't change dead. Dead is dead. And if you keep abusing drugs, you know what's pretty likely to happen, right? If you're like most addicts, you'll end up in jails, institutions or.....dead.

So, while some people will castigate you for taking suboxone to keep your disease at bay, and some will even say you are trading one addiction for another, why should we care what OTHER PEOPLE think about how WE, as individuals, decide to treat our *potentially fatal* illness?

Personally, I don't really give a crap what anyone thinks about how I have chosen to treat my problem.


I have my life back, I'm stable, and healthy. If I have to take a pill each day for that to happen, so be it.

_________________
anyone can give up,
its the easiest thing in the world to do, but to
hold it together, when everyone would understand if you fell apart
That's TRUE STRENGTH
http://almostoneyearclean.blogspot.com/


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2013 1:41 pm 
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Hey buddy just wanted to check in on how things were going. You will be successful in this. You will not fail. Keep strong buddy you've got this.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2013 6:31 pm 
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Hey everyone,

Day 3 -

Amber - Thanks for those posts, the really hit home with me and I'll explain below.

WantToBeFree -

Thanks for your kind words, they've been helpful in my battle to kick this habit. This day has by far been the worse in terms of feeling completely empty.

In any case, I decided to give In and head to my doctor to be placed on a cold turkey plan. I cannot live like this, I had an important meeting today that I missed due to the fact that I just cannot properly function. I ended up taking 2 Klonopin last night for sleep and it helped tremendously! Slept like a baby, but in turn, woke up like a zombie. I now have severe sniffles and my body aches like no other. Thus, I went to my doctor and explained the circumstances, that I've been off for 3 days and cannot take this excruciating pain as well as I originally thought. She was understanding and gave me a regimen for tapering to follow, which I will, but at the same time, she prescribed me the same amount I've always been prescribed, which was a bit discouraging. The fiend in me head straight over to the Pharmacy and got 5 pills prescribed and I'm waiting for them to be ready, which is in about an hour. During that time, I haven't been able to focus, my vision has been blurry, my mind is all over the place, and my body is aching endlessly.

I didn't think cold turkey would be this hard, but after the first day of non sleep (tossing and turning all night, didn't know if I had slept at all, took 2 Benadryl, melatonin, and zzzquill to no avail) I took the Klonopin my buddy gave me the next day, which helped me sleep fine. But I can't be dependent on other pills, it is a vicious cycle and personally, I'd rather be taking subs and slowly tapering off than endure this type of mental and physical pain. It isn't even about the stubbornness anymore as much as it the reality of the situation. If I keep pretending like I can fight this problem, I'm going to dig myself into a deeper hole. I am in fact afraid, and my macho warrior bravado has been damaged, but with that fear comes the realization that there is no other way to do this than to manage the problem within' the confines of my own thought process and method. The doctor's frankly have been of no help except for the scripts they prescribe. I've had a good friend of mine who went through this ordeal and has suggested a 7-10 day detox that tapers you off methadone, but I didn't think I needed methadone and told him that subs are pretty much almost the same as methadone except my problem stems from a Norco addiction. He kicked reality into me by informing me that they're almost always the same problem, the feeling is the same, despite them being more harsh and extreme than others. So I'm going to try to taper off the subs for the time being and in the mean time, see if I can head over to this clinic if worst case scenario I can't do this on my own.

Thanks everyone for listening and helping, I'm really trying, I really am, but I have too many day to day responsibilities right now to endure this pain and agony and be productive in what I need to do. I'm trying, but trying hasn't been enough. I need to open my mind to the issue at hand and accept that I'm a beaten man, weak, and vulnerable. Once I do that, I can battle those feelings away by being fierce and willful, and continue the path to being clean and sober once and for all.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2013 10:39 pm 
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hey there...

i think your making the right decision.... you can taper with the least amount of withdrawls, where it's almost
comfortable, as OTHER people have put it.... like this thread, with the "hole punch method"
where you use a whole punch in 2mg strips, to get to a SUPER LOW DOSE......
http://suboxforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=7449


what's wrong with that???
NOTHING!!! if you ask ME!!!

It's most certainly better than relapsing back on norcos or WORSE..... and don't do the methadone thing, unless your going
to go to a clinic..... I did the methadone thing thru a pain management clinic, and I was gonna you know, take them as
perscribed.... well within a few months, I was doing heroin....
Now < Im not saying that's what would happen to everyone,
it's just alot better at the clinic, where you have a much less chance of abusing them!!!
anyways
back to the point.....
there's NOTHING wrong with tapering, especially after being on suboxone, as long as you or I have.....

hang in there,
and you could start a new thread anytime ya feel like it.

GOOD LUCK friend

_________________
anyone can give up,
its the easiest thing in the world to do, but to
hold it together, when everyone would understand if you fell apart
That's TRUE STRENGTH
http://almostoneyearclean.blogspot.com/


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2013 12:03 am 
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Thank you Amber, truly, from the bottom of my heart. The immense support here has been great. I've never been more active searching for sub addiction until now and all my answers have been met with a warm response. The threads you posted truly openened my eyes to the fact that fear isn't bad, and that tapering is a method that after 3 years of use should be my first line of defense. I'll be honest. The moment I took that 2mg sub today, I instantly felt better, at ease, and most importantly, level headed. I feel a glimmer of hope now and now truly feel I can beat this addiction with the many various examples you and others have offered at my assistace. Human decency is underrated, because when people need, require, and despair for help, it will be there when we come asking. You Amber are truly a great person and your ability to show how much you care shines through like a ray of light. I cannot thank you enough and all willing, I will continue to taper and reap the benefits of one day being free of this bondage without remorse or regret. Suboxone has helped me tremendously for the time I've been taking it and I will never deny that. Without I, I may have easily graduated to H or higher dose opiates. I am immensely grateful, and will continue keeping the masses posted on my on going process.


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