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 Post subject: Well Strike That
PostPosted: Fri Nov 05, 2010 11:56 am 
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Thanks for the nice thoughts Romeo - but alas and sadly - that was perhaps the lamest false start ever. I couldn't even make it to lunch I felt so lousy. Not even 24 hours. I probably could force myself to - but I think that's the sign that I'm just not ready.

So back to .3mg. I'll stay here for a while until I am feeling physically confident I can reduce dose. And I probably wont jump but rather drop to .2mg. I'll keep posting. Bummer.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 05, 2010 12:17 pm 
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So I guess I could use some advice from the tapering experts. I can see not being ready after 37 days, but I am surprised that I was feeling what felt like material (albeit not major) acute withdrawals within 18 hours of my last dose. Am I just being unrealistic about what it takes to stop? Meaning I have to expect SOME acute withdrawals and that's jut par for the course. Or is it really just a sign that I am jumping off sooner than my particular brain will allow and I should just stay the course at .3mg for a while.

I'm not worried about some short lingering acute withdrawals. I am much more concerned about long lingering PAWS. I feel like if I had confidence that the PAWS would subside after acute withdrawals I would suck it up. But I don't want to go through a week of feeling really lousy and then just keep feeling lousy on a more low-grade level. I'd rather just keep doing what I am doing at .3mg which I can handle fine.

I probably just answered my own question and I should stay the course at .3mg. I've got a call into my doctor and I'll see what he says too.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 05, 2010 1:25 pm 
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I stopped from 0.30 mg - maybe 0.25 (i dont think i really adjusted to the 0.25 though). And yea, there was some w/d`s. But they seemed to be like you described - not major( but still very uncomfortable when you sit in them).
And for me personally, they didnt throttle up alot so to speak from when they first had materialised - and as a note, my mentally cravings for a dose actually seemed to go down after the first 1-2 days. Maybe its because you fear is being replaced with knowledge.
So if you react like me, and stop from 0.30 mg you will feel the kind of w/d wich is uncomfortable, but still allows you to walk around, get some sleep and take time outs with hot showers, for 4-5 days - with symptoms being better not worse from that point.
Tons off good lucks and wishes from here:)


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 05, 2010 4:07 pm 
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Don't sweat it man, you just weren't ready yet.

Tapering off 5 years of meds in 37 days is very aggressive, maybe give yourself a little break. There's another website I used to frequent that suggested (and had a lot of success) that an 8 - 10 week taper seemed to work well. You're already at such a low dose I don't think a few more weeks is unreasonable to continue allowing your brain to adjust to its new enviroment. The more adjusting you allow your brain to do now the less pissed off it will be at you when you quit. I know because I did too rapid a taper and my brain was pissed off to the highest point of pisstivity there for a while. It was not happy with its new environment.

You may have several more false starts, you may hit the nail on the head with the next try? Who cares, so long as you keep after it.

I was hoping not to have to mention this, but I made it only about 20 hours when I quit and then remembered I had some 3 year old Lorcet Plus upstairs. I took 2 of them, it was like 2am in the morning and I just needed a break. There were 22 in the bottle and I took 4 a day over the next 5 days then I switched to codeine (8mg codeine, 15 mg caffeine, 300 mg tylenol) for another 5 days before I was totally off opiates. I felt guilty about this for a long while because I cheated? I maybe made my withdrawal worse? I still feel guilty about it even as I am typing, weird. Anyway, I had a crappy start too so don't sweat it.

P.S.---I have 5 months clean as of yesterday. Yay!


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 05, 2010 4:28 pm 
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Romeo

Thanks - you're very supportive. Yes - the consensus seems to point to 8-12 weeks at least. I think I am getting back on that plan. I don't want to jump off and then just be stuck in PAWS land. That would defeat the purpose of having started this in the first place. I am glad you're five months off. How are you feeling?


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 05, 2010 4:56 pm 
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Shoot, it just dawned on me I forgot to mention something to you and I think it could help you a lot. This other website also STRONGLY recommends skipping days as part of the taper. Get to a low dose, stabilize then skip 1 day. So you would take your meds every other day for a week or so? Then, skip 2 days...do that for a while then skip 3 days.

This would be an excellent way to teach your mind/body to not fear the first 24 hours--then on the skip 2 day part you're teaching your mind/body not to fear the 48 hour mark, etc. Make sense?

I know I was scared out of my mind of withdrawal for 13 years, that's why it took me so damn long to finally quit. The reason I kept on the opiates wasn't that I enjoyed the high so much, it was my overwhelming fear of a hard wd lasting for ever. If we could teach you to minimize your fear that should help?

Honestly, getting fairly 'strong' withdrawal after 18 hours sounds like it is mostly in your head, I'm not judging, hell it happened to me. I'm just saying lets try to minimize that fear to increase the odds of your success. Does any of this make any sense?

As far as how I am feeling. I am very, very, very thankful to be off of opiates. I am thinking much more clearly. I have improved my relationship with my little girl and wife. I finally am getting more and more energy back...I don't live on the couch so much anymore. All in all I feel good, but I am not quite 100% normal...then again I've been on drugs for so long I don't think I would recognize normal if it walked up and slapped me in the face. I would not trade where I am today for anything though. Thanks for asking.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 05, 2010 6:17 pm 
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Romeo - Just spoke to my doctor who basically told me to man up. He sounded a bit like your post actually. Lol. In all seriousness he wanted me to try to go the weekend without dosing and then see where I am at on Monday. He told me I can always go back to the .3mg but that stopping now "is very do-able" and I should try doing it.

Sigh. i'm gonna talk it over with my wife tonight because I am definitely going to be toast all weekend and unhelpful I am sure. Gotta make sure she's onboard.

I'll let everyone know how it goes. Maybe do some posting over the weekend as it makes me feel better.

Enjoy the weekend all.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 05, 2010 11:00 pm 
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Hi Matt -

It's been so long now since I tapered that I went back to the thread I started after I jumed (different from the liquid taper thread). Here is what I posted for my first week off of Sub completely. I jumped from about 0.2mgs, it took me from 5/14 to 8/3 to taper from 1mg to 0.2mgs - slow and tedious, but it worked. I did not experience any PAWS at all. At 30 days off I felt pretty darn good, at 60 days off I felt amazingly well.

Diary of a Quitter wrote:
Hey crew! I know I haven't been posting much the last week or so, but I have a good reason.

[font=Comic Sans MS][marq=right]I finished my taper y'all! [/marq][/font]


One year, nine months, and eight days after I started Suboxone, I took my last dose of .2mgs on Monday, Aug 3rd.

Here are the highlights from the first few days:

Monday was fine, as I dosed that morning. Slept fine that night after taking 1mg clonazepam.

Tuesday I was a little tired. Got by with lots of rest, ibuprofin, reading...I also think I was beat from a long and busy week last week so I just needed some downtime.

Wednesday I was still waiting for the horrible withdrawals to kick in. Mostly I was feeling lazy, but restless. So I fought the laziness and cleaned my daughter's room. Physically I felt fine. Seriously.

Thursday (today) Woke up at 4:15am. Oh shit! I've been taking clonazepam before bed and it's been working fine. But I went to bed at about 11:30 Wed night and woke up at 4:15. I read for about an hour, then was having very mild discomfort in my lower legs. This could be w/d or could be my fibro, who knows. Took a hot bath. Figured I was awake, so I might as well do something. So I did housework (laundry & light cleaning) until it was time to get ready for work.

Went to work @ 10am and had an amazingly productive day. No physical discomfort and I wasn't tired. My mind felt really clear and I was in a good mood. I did sneeze about ten times, but that was it. Got off work at 3:30, by which time I was feeling tired but still in a good mood. Went home, ate a sandwich, and took a nap - fell asleep with no sleep aids.

Got up, played with my kid, did some more housework (did I mention that my house is a complete freaking mess?), had some dinner, played online - and I'm still fine.

Friday Went to work, sneezed like 5 or 8 times, felt pretty good. Had a mellow evening at home.

Saturday Worked all day - 9 hours - on my feet, was in a great mood, got a lot done. Sneezed a few times.

Sunday Still doing well. Sleep is a little iffy. Lots of dreams and somewhat restless. Took a walk, did some errands, listened to music, went out to dinner. Still in a good mood if a little more tired than usual. Having some mild aches, could be related to working all day Saturday, but I've been achy for about 5 years now anyway so Im used to it. Not having the ill bone-aches usually associated with withdrawal though.

Monday Sneezed about ten times when I woke up today. Feeling a little stiff and achy, but seems like my normal fibromyalgia crap. Hot bath, advil, Kombucha tea and I'm ready to go. Got a bunch of running around done, went out to dinner at Benihana for my partner's birthday, t'was AWESOME. However, I ate too much and had a hard time sleeping.

Tuesday (today) Felt pretty crap this morning from lack of sleep. Made very strongly caffienated tea, did what I could around the house, did some writing, went to yoga class. Feeling pretty relaxed and well at this point.

To sum up: the most pronounced withdrawal symptom I've had is difficulty falling and staying asleep; but even that has been mild enough that I haven't missed work or even really cut back much on my normal activities. Second most pronounced symptom is restlessness. As in, I feel tired but also restless. Kinda like when you've been sick, and you're getting better, but you're not all the way better, and you feel like you should be doing something but you don't really want to do anything. Like that. So I just ignore that feeling and stay busy at a comfortable level. Third thing is a mild headache that comes and goes, which may or may not be withdrawal-related. And the sneezing. What's up with the sneezing I truly don't know, but whatever. It lasts for like 10 seconds so I'm not gonna sweat it.

I'm still taking clonazepam to help me sleep if I need it. I figure I'll taper off of that in the next week or so. Advil is my friend as well. I'm going to try to get into pain management for my fibro soon. Other things that really seem to help are:

Hot baths. Exercise. Water. Rest. Kombucha. Distraction. Positive Attitude. Support of family/friends. Being grateful that I have this opportunity to do it right. Meditation.

So there you have it. So far, I would say that this taper method works. I could imagine that one could taper down even lower than I did and stop with basically no withdrawal - but I needed to get this done because I'm going back to school in September. Oh, did I mention that? Since I finished Sub, I managed to get myself down to school and register for the chemical dependency counselor program. Woot!

Thanks to everyone for your support through this. I hope I can return the favor for some of you!

Here's my original taper thread for those who are interested:

http://suboxforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=296


At some point during this time, I went to my Sub doctor and got Ambien which worked way better for sleep than the clonazepam did. He gave me a scrip for 30 pills, and as of right now (over a year later) I still have 6 of them left.

I hope this info makes you feel a little better. I understand the "man up" and get it over with attitude, but my perspective on the situation was that I'd worked my ass off for almost 2 years to get well and I wasn't going to fuck it up because I was impatient. I picked an optimal time for me to quit as it was 6 weeks before I started back to school, it was summer, and I had a lot of support. I'd been taking really good care of myself, working out, eating well, etc., and I KNEW I was ready.

I kept waiting for things to get horrible, but they really never did.

You have done amazingly well with your taper so far. You should be proud of yourself! It's not an easy task and you set a brisk pace for yourself. My advice to you would be get yourself down to 0.2mgs and stabilize. Once you've been on that dose with little-to-no withdrawal effects for about 2 weeks, take the plunge.

If it gets too tough, you can always take a .2mg dose and then stop again or do the skipping days thing. Personally, I hated every-other-day dosing, which is why I did my taper the way I did it.

You can do it, I believe in you :lol:

PS - here's the link to the thread that the above quote came from:

http://suboxforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=717

If you read through the thread, you can see that I have a couple of rough days where I'm tired and having a hard time sleeping, but that's it. I also posted about getting acupuncture treatments which really helped with my energy...I'd forgotten all about that. Ah, how quickly the memories fade!

_________________
You can't stop the waves, but you can learn to surf.

-Jack Kornfield


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 06, 2010 10:13 am 
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DOAQ - Truly, thank you for this. This is incredibly thoughtful and inspirational. And I am so happy things worked out so well for you. You give me so much hope.

I am going to follow my doctor's advice just because I am paying him so darn much I want my money's worth. So I am going to take the rough ride this weekend and see how things go. If they don't go well, I think you just gave me my plan B. Thanks so much.

Matt


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 06, 2010 3:45 pm 
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Hey Matt,

Wow, you have come so far, you give me soooo much hope!!!! I am thinking and praying for you this weekend :!: Please continue to let us know how your doing. Know there is no shame in going back to your .3 mgs of sub if you need to only you can make that decision. I truely believe that your mind and body knows when your ready, maybe you need the little push from your Dr.? or maybe you know whats best?

Just know that we are here for you know matter what! Keep up the great work, you are doing fantastic :D :D


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 06, 2010 5:03 pm 
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Thanks HanCal106 - I appreciate the well wishes.

So trying the jump again on day 38 from my first Sub.

I went ahead and made the jump. Sticking with it thus far. It is 26 hours since my last dose and I feel not great but not terrible either. But I am also pretty loaded up with comfort meds though (Clonodine, Klonopin, Muscle Relaxer, and Motrin). I also have some Ambien for nights (thanks for that tip DOAQ). Of course Monday is a big milestone. I hear the real symptoms don't start till day 3. I am hoping that my taper modified that rule a bit. We'll see.

Main symptoms now - small chills (but not quite goosebumps), headache, tired/sluggish (but some of that is probably the comfort meds), difficulty concentrating, drained (not quite depression) feeling.

One definite bit of obvious advice for everyone. Don't try jumping off on a busy work day. That was stupid. Feeling bad while having your co-workers bomb you with stressful issues is not the way to jump off. I am prepared to take Mon and Tues off if need be and then I don't have to get back to work till Wed (5 days later). Much wiser plan I think.

I'll post more on symptoms tomorrow.


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 Post subject: Day 2 - Post Sub
PostPosted: Sun Nov 07, 2010 12:40 pm 
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So just posting. Day two with no Sub. Last night was awful. I took a lot of meds which knocked me out. But my body was going through some serious twitches. That's actually the worst of all worlds. Getting arm and leg twitches while being effectively knocked out from meds. I would wake up in discomfort but only half awake. I got maybe 3 hours of sleep (if lucky). I think I am going to go easy on comfort and sleep meds at night until the the twitches are behind me. Hopefully tonight will be the last night of that. We'll see.

All in all today, I feel about 2-3X as worse as I did when I was making my drops between doses. I am not bed ridden or anything. I am going to go on a long walk, do some yard work, and have a nice dinner (oh yeah - I can eat fine - not starving or anything but not forcing it either).

Then again day 3 is when it is supposed to start I am told. So let' see what happens...with some luck I'll only have a few more days of this.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 07, 2010 3:26 pm 
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Hey Matt,

I'm glad to here your doing alright :D Hopefully the worst is behind you now :idea: I am thinking that at the very low dose you were on that the most of it has cleared your system 8) I am keeping you in my prayers and have sooooo much respect for you. Your doing a great job :!: :D

Thank you for keeping us all posted, you are helping so many people out here :D

KEEP UP THE GREAT WORK :!: :!: :!: :!: :!:


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 Post subject: Day 3 - No Sub
PostPosted: Mon Nov 08, 2010 9:43 am 
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So it's Day 3. Last night was definitely better than the night before which was very encouraging. I went to bed around 9 PM. I had the same twitches and fitful sleep from 9-1 but then interestingly the twitches subsided significantly around 1 and I slept OK (my pain still wakes me up regardless) from 1-6. So I got at least a solid 5-6 hours. I'll take that.

Today I by no means feel good. Drained. Exhausted. Slight chills. Headache. Concentration sucks. But I am at work here on Day 3 so that's got to be a good sign. I'll be interested to see if I feel better today than I did yesterday. If last night is any indicator - hopefully yes.

I'll check in tomorrow.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 08, 2010 11:37 am 
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Way to go Matt!

You even managed to go to work, awesome! Hang in there buddy!!!


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 Post subject: Day 4 - No Sub
PostPosted: Tue Nov 09, 2010 9:51 am 
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Just doing my daily check in. I plan to check in daily for the first 30 days off sub then less frequently (but I'll still be around).

Last night was exactly like the night before. So weird. Took sleep meds, tossed and turned with arm twitches from 9-1. Then at 1 fell asleep and woke up at 6. Again, I'll take it. Could be worse. I would try staying up until midnight or 1 but then I am afraid I would still have the same 4 hours of twitches. It's almost like my brain is getting used to sleeping without opiates, but in increments. It does some re-balancing of chemicals and then says "that's enough for tonight." yes very clinical observation I know.

Yesterday wasn't great. I felt pretty crappy until I took a Clondine which eased things up a decent amount. I am definitely on the Clonidine band wagon. And then I went for a 4 mile run which I thought was a good sign and made me feel a little better.

This morning I want to believe I feel better than I did yesterday, but it's too early to tell.

I'll check back in tomorrow.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 09, 2010 10:43 am 
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My sleep was awful for a while too. I was not able to get to sleep until 5am at the beginning, then woke up at 8am. Gradually, it improved to where you are now (1am - 6am). I ended up staying up later to stave off the damn RLS and flipping and flopping. I would take my Clonidine 30 minutes before laying down at 12:30am. I was usually able to get to sleep fairly quickly, then every week or so I would start working my bedtime back by 15 minutes to a more normal time. It took a while, but I can usually get to bed around 10 pm and get a good nights sleep now.

It worked for me, but I have learned that recovery treats everyone different and it might not work for you.

I think the fact that you were able to run 4 miles is just astounding. I could barely wipe my ass at 4 days!

Keep moving forward Matt and remember this about these icky feelings you are feeling, THIS TOO SHALL PASS.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 09, 2010 7:58 pm 
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Just wanted to post my support and congrats to you Matt for making the jump!

I am doing the liquid taper myself but extremely slow as I already wrecked my cns from a CT klonopin WD back in '07. Please keep us posted, your attitude and recovery is inspiring.

Samantha


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 Post subject: Day 5 - No Sub
PostPosted: Wed Nov 10, 2010 10:17 am 
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hey all,

So it's day 5 - no sub.

Yesterday was exactly the same as the day before. No improvement. But I made it through my work day and actually got some stuff done. Went to the gym and ran 3 miles. I gotta say I am definitely getting the whole exercise thing. I always knew hot baths were like a vacation from w/ds and PAWS but who knew cardio was as well? It's not immediately obvious like a bath. For me, the first 15 minutes are a little uncomfortable. But then once your heart gets pumping and on a level plane, the icky feelings just melt away....and stay away for a good hour or two afterward. If my spine wasn't so jacked up I would run every day. But today I think I will just do a long walk and very light weights.

Regarding last night - let's just say weird. Took my sleep meds and I think I was half asleep all night. I can recall most hours of the evening, but it still went by relatively fast. If that makes any sense. It's like I slept in fits and starts the whole night. But I also have to remember my pain. My pain is worst at night and wakes me up anyway. So that is definitely an aggravating factor. Tonight I plan to stop the sleep meds (its only been 4 nights), but keep the .5mg klonopin going. Don't want to change too much too fast.

On the positive side, I woke up this morning feeling like I may have turned a slight corner. Again it's too early to tell as I write this. It's funny, when I was taking pain meds my "routine" was dose in the morning and then dose again mid-afternoon. I would always feel a little icky waiting for that mid-afternoon dose. I think that's a psychological factor for me right now that I am mimicking. It's like muscle memory in karate. when you stop practicing, it will fade over time, but not right away and probably not for a little while. So I am trying to keep that perspective. I am hoping to get through today without a Clonidine. We'll see.

Now for the BIG news. I tossed out my pain meds. Both the meds I had left in the bottles and the scripts I had (that were written in triplicate). I forgot about them altogether but thought about them today. It was easy to do and it has made me feel really optimistic. I haven't tossed the remainder of my Subutex script. Not ready to do that yet. But I don't see going back at this point.

Sorry for the long post - just a lot on my mind today. Until tomorrow.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 10, 2010 10:42 am 
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I like the long post, it gives us a better window into what you're feeling and I bet for everyone considering quitting suboxone that your posts couldn't be long enough. You are a wealth of information to them and an inspiration, so keep on posting.

You mentioned your pain is worse at night, I think that's true for everyone. At bedtime, you're lying there in bed while your brain tries to calm down, you become aware of things in these moments of stillness that you weren't able to perceive during the hustle and bustle of the day...you're brain was preoccupied with social interactions, what's next at work, what's for lunch, etc. during the day, but now it has all the time in the world to focus on your pain...sucks eh! I started to take a couple of advil in the evening maybe a month after I quit subs and I was amazed that they actually worked! Really, they work beautifully! They just don't get you high, boo. :)

Your analogy of muscle memory to your 'psycological' desire is right on the money. I read an article about addicition and the brain a few weeks ago and that is EXACTLY what they purported to be happening. Your positive attitude still impresses me greatly, keep it up Matt.

Good job tossing those pain meds! That took some stones.


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