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PostPosted: Sat Aug 10, 2013 8:31 pm 
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I just sat here and read through this whole entire thread feeling all too familiar with the Tapering WD's. I myself have been back and forth with outpatient rehab facilities...in the past 2 years I've been to 4 all unsuccessful, just ending up back on pills. But every doc I went to I was always very honest with and wanted to just pull myself through this horrifying journey of WD's. I have too much to lose here at this point in my life now that I could never end up again depending on another drug to run my life. So I decided each time to drop myself off fairly quickly on Subs.

I started on a HIGH dose of 24mgs which in my first induction was WAAAAYY too much IMO. It made me feel extremely high and stupid for TWO DAYS! I didn't understand Suboxone at this point at all and what it would do to me or how I would feel on it. I was in an overcrowded outpatient hospital looking at all the addicts in there, some with track marks, some tweaking out, some just normal like me, NO ONE could ever tell I was in a bad spot with pills, I have a 3 year old daughter I take amazing care of as well as a great job that is very demanding. Everyone was blind to this nightmare I was in. Anyways, was going off track there a bit, while in this hospital, a nurse came over, told me to open my mouth, popped two little white pills in my mouth under my tongue and said to me, "sit here, keep that under your tongue for the next 8 minutes and Ill be right back, do not eat or drink anything for a half hour." Although it tasted HORRIBLE I was kinda waiting for my WD's to go away instantly, not knowing it takes a half hour or so to kick in, The nurse came back, told me to "open my mouth" she checked to make sure they fully dissolved and then told me to go into the waiting area with the other people who also just had their first (2nd or 3rd) Induction. I socialized with a few people here and there asking questions as to how long the medicine will take to work, some people said "should be instantly..." I looked at them like they were crazy and said that I still feel shaky and sick to my stomach and that my skin was on fire! Someone then started to look concerned and said, "you could be going through precipitated WD's right now" I didn't know what that was at all, so I asked her to explain to me, as she was doing so, I got freaked out! I asked for the nurse to help me, as I was waiting for her to get to my room, I felt this warm flush feeling over my body, I then was warm all over and had a great sense of "well being" at that point. It was amazing, like getting high all over again. All my shakiness went away, my legs were not cramped up anymore...I was then calm, staying still, enjoying that feeling completely after just going through WD's for the last 24-30 hours before getting there.

The nurse then looked at me, asked "how I was feeling?" I just looked up at her and said, "I don't know...good I guess..." in a weird, slow voice. She then took my pulse, then checked my BP and left. I was there for at least 5 hours after being inducted to be monitored by the nurse. Still though, after taking Suboxone and then feeling good, I was then realizing I just traded one drug for another and was now in a battle to get clean, I cried hard for at least what seemed like an hour in the bathroom, looking at myself in the mirror wearing those scrubs they make you wear. I was looking at my tired face, asking, "What am I supposed to do now?" I still don't have an answer better than, "Taper and get off this s*** once and for all, GET CLEAN! You owe it to yourself to enjoy your life and your daughter, don't let another drug run your life for you."

So, I'm currently on less than .25mgs I'm sure of it because all I take is sugar grain size amount everyday, sometimes going days in between by keeping myself constantly busy, exercising, enjoying my daughter and boyfriend, moving on. I'm not going to say this is not difficult, I think about doing pills sometimes but then I look at my daughter and think of where I was 2 years ago, in that hospital and what I said to myself...and how I felt going through WD's and feeling horribly sick. I don't ever want to go through all that again and I don't want to be dependent on Suboxone. I still join forums for my "at home support" when I feel weak and spill my guts out about how I feel and believe it or not, a stranger going through the same thing DOES care! So keep up with the forums, it will definitely make you feel stronger knowing you are not alone in this battle.

You all owe it to yourself to get off the crap and live your life!! I wish all of you the best of luck getting off Suboxone if that's what you choose to do. It IS possible and no its not easy but you just think to yourself, "YOU put yourself where you are now and only YOU can change what the outcome is going to be."

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 11, 2013 12:56 am 
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Yes. I totally agree that it would be great to just get off suboxone and live our lives and move on.... But that never happens to an opiate addict. Sorry.

I just see page after page and patient after patient that tapers, jumps, stays off for a year or so (usually less), relapse, go back to suboxone.... Or die using.

I've had 3 friends die from being gyilted off suboxone or getting off for the wrong reasons.

However. My point here is that there are so many threads about jumping and their ONLY concern is how they are going to prepare and deal with WITHDRAWAL! NOT THEIR RECOVERY PLAN!

I you have to have a full time recovery plan ready... If you want off. It helps if you already have one, but it will be more intensive off suboxone.

This is the sole reason many take suboxone for 8 years, buy a car/house, get their spouse back, get a new great job, care for their kids, and get their lives back on track... Socially....

BUT.

There is no thought of how important it is to stay active in recovery. So you don't get away from it. Because now everything is peachy and you got everything you ever dreamed of... You stop suboxone and push through the pain you didn't seal with foe those 8 years for awhile until you start to use to cover it up all over again or you start to lose everything you built up. You are right back where you started all because NA was full of crazy people and "wasn't for you", or you weren't bad enough for all that, or you just felt good enough on suboxone not to do any extra work....

Trust me. I wouldn't take the time to say this stuff if I didn't watch it happen all the time. All I want is for people to honestly look at this for themselves. Are you going to be a full time member of a twelve step fellowship and work steps? OR put yourself in a recovery atmosphere with service work and therapy on a full time basis? Then don't get off suboxone yet.

Imagine your doctor asks you "Without suboxone, explain to me how you are doing in your recovery. What do you have?"..... How do you answer?

There is much much more to getting off than just making it through the withdrawal (especially since most smoke weed and take Benzos and stuff) period... Suboxone doesn't heal anything. It pauses.

So. Get off. And let's talk 5 years from now. Because Idk about you but I want to stay alive and out of active addiction for the long term.... Not 6 months or a year at a time.

Just some thoughts... Based on my experiences with other addicts personally and suboxone the last 8 years. I'm lucky I made it through making the decision did without thinking about them all the way.... Including getting off suboxone when I did.

/|/|. /|/|.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 11, 2013 4:29 am 
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Maybe that is the case for YOU!

There are 100s of people who only worry about withdrawal because that is all that is stopping them recovering. There are 100s of people who when they get past withdrawals they live happily after. It comes down to the way you go about in life, the way your personality is and your views on life not just yourself.

If you have difficult staying clean after getting off an opiate then that is your issue, it does not have to be the same for everybody else. Some people are strong enough to get through the difficult stages of detox and then stay clean, without cravings, without relapse and without thinking about chasing a buzz.

I know several people who put down doing drugs as soon as they found out they were having a baby. I know others who put down their opiate as soon as their partner gave them a ultimatum, and several others who stopped their opiate habit as soon as they realized they may end up homeless, lose their job, affect their health and so on.

I know coming from ex-addicts that it choice plays a big part as well in recovery. If we focus more on our health, our future, our loved ones and family, our career, have some goals and ambitions in place then you would see relapse as revolting let alone opiates. It is not impossible to change the mentality that got us hooked on opiates in the first place.

For me I do not want to lack behind in life when others are progressing, having wonderful careers, a good family life, having enough bucks to take regular vacations and basically enjoying life. For many the only obstacle is withdrawal and PAWS. I know for some people its hard and they need a lot more recovery and support in place then others, but all this is subjective for and from each individual. The more common-sense you have the more chance of recovery, the more better personality traits you have then again the more chance of recovery. It is not simple as opiate and addict, it also has a lot to do with people's personality, our choices, the way we treat others, our heart, how open minded we are, how selfless we are, self esteem issues are a big part here too. Many turn to drugs because of bullying, because of people not find them attractive, because people cannot lose weight,because people cannot sustain relationships, cannot or do not want to handle being alone and other factors. All this is still not an excuse to turn to opiates. All this can be remedied by only us, we can change our lifestyle, our thinking and our views on life and not just ourselves. Plenty have it rough then opiate addicts and plenty of them do not resort to opiates. Again it comes down to our personality as much as anything.

I would rather be ecnouraged and give encouragement that is based on the principle that you are NOT an addict for life, you are NOT going to relapse, you are not going to suffer without opiates and you CAN make it without living with cravings all your life. I rather be told that then to be told its going to be hard or your a life time addict, this only extends recovery or can even give addicts excuse to indulge in opiates all the time, all their life...

If we keep ourselves busy, keep ur mind occupied, think about how our loved ones and family feel, think about damage it could do to them and not us and think about all those in poverty, going through war zones, living with illnesses such as cancers and those who struggle more then we do- then that gives us enough incentive to hate opiates and not even think about them, again I stress it comes down to our personality, our selfish level and our views on life..

There are people out there achieving a lot, accomplishing wonders, surely we want to be like them too? surely we do not want to be seen as rejects and low lifes?....Sure I agree for many a strong support system and recovery has to be in place but that can only work so much, the rest is up to us. Nobody or nothing can help you unless you help yourself..Many ex-addicts told me including my doc that it ultimately comes down to you and us, it comes down to the fact we really have to want it. If we keep looking for excuses then nobody will be there for us and we will be alone.

All I am saying is that it is not just about recovery being iin place but also comes down to us inviduals..It is very possible to to lead a happy sober life after stopping any opiate, it's a test of character, it can expose our determination level...Like an ex-addict told me only the ones who choose to be strong survive. Nothing in our mind and body is different to others mind and body that some have it hard then others-it only comes down to will power and the level we choose to be at in the sense of determination, willingness and life style, which we make or can change.

I agree the older you get the harder it gets but whos fault is that? nobody forced us to be on that path, except those with chronic pain and surgery-who can be forgiven for getting dependent on opiates. But I just dislike those whos believe that other people's life and mentality mimics their own, that is living in-denial and bitterness. How do they know how others feel? how do they know others will find it difficult as them? how do they know others will take a long time to recover?

One of an ex-addict told me his method of staying clean was great sex, he use to be a clothes model but mixed with the wrong company, but he quit one day doing some soul-searching and realizing he is too good to be on this path, he managed to get clean, get a lovely gorgeous girlfriend and belives sex is is his way to feel good because it raised the endorphins, it makes you feel happy and good for several days after a 1 good sex session, it makes you feel your powerful, your wanted, your blessed and your special. He has never touched opiates for 3 years. He put some effort in reaching where he is. He was on heroin and then methadone for 4 1.2 years. Sure he said feeling good looking helped him a ton, ones less issue to worry about, because if you feel good about yourself you can feel good about life and positive i.e high self-esteem, high confident level, more open minded..


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 11, 2013 4:32 am 
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Another lady said she got hooked on opiates because she was being rejected from jobs because she was not good looking enough, here were giving positions to more model material look-alike women, that is the way society is these days, a lot depends on the way you look, the younger more attractive t thinner you are the more chance of being offered jobs, it even talked about this in a recent documentary. And how them women as well as men have better greater sex, which leads to feel good factors..So that woman turned to drugs to take pain away, but having said that there are many in that situation who do not turn to opiates...So again my point is that it comes down to our personality as much as anything, and not everybody has to have the same recovery in place just as not everybody has the same personality..


An ex-oxy and heroin user said when you need food to survive, a roof over your head and need to survive then your addict personality will go straight out of the window..She said we can live without opiates cannot live without oxygen, food and water..And remember she use to be an addict too. Now she is happily married with gorgeous children and a job working as a pharmacist-of all jobs she become a pharmacist considering medicines, pain killers and opiates are front of her face daily..This just goes to show anything is possible and how addiction/opiated do not have to be part of your life even if they have been in the past, you can even work with opiates without even feeling the need to crave them..Sure it is different for each individual, but it really is different because we make it different, because we choose to have the personality we do. If we want something bad enough we'll get it..If we want to gain some self-respect, principles, integrity and a life then we will achieve it..It all comes down to our selfish level as much as anything else. I really believe that..


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 11, 2013 10:48 am 
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I totally understand where you are coming from. I really do.

But for every ONE guy that stays off longer than one year there are thousands that relapse, die, or go back. All because of there being NO thought of recovery in their lives.

I agree that some can stop and stay stopped. Spontaneous remission is real. But. It's not normal by far.

I'd rather people think realistically rather than think they are the lottery winner here is all.

Good thoughts though. Honestly.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 11, 2013 12:39 pm 
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Dear GoldieLox,
Dont worry too much. If you are on 0.25 then it is basically out if you system. I noticed a strange thing when i got to 0.5. My pupils were suddenly not pinned in concrete for the first time in 2 years. I kept looking in the mirror. The jump from 0.5 in my case was ok.What got me down was the stories of 3 week wd etc. through the first 4 days i thought no way did i want to feel like this for more than 2 weeks. But after 6 days things definitely got better. I think people talk about a longer recovery but after the first week it is so much better due to passing through the door so to speak. Even with the very mild lingering feelings you just feel 100 times better. Knowing each day is getting better than the last.
This doesnt mean the previous day wasnt ok, just the next is even better.
I dont even care when i get a little wave of heat flushing over me. Last week it would make me very worried thinking it just gets worse from here. Now i know it is just a little wave till feeling good. 10 mins etc.
If jumping, just prepare for the week. Take time off.
It isnt that bad.
I think jumping at high doses (above 1 mg) will take longer. At this it may take 4 days for the Bup to start to detach. Then the recovery can start properly. Maybe thus the 2-3 week wd??.
At doses under 0.5 i think it has detached by 24 hrs. I know i was feeling it before each morning dose
I work early so get up at 4am. Used to have my dpse make a coffee, go back to bed and look forward to it working in an hr.
My advice is to taper, taper, taper!
Then a week... done!
Sure, understand the euphoria may wear off after a few months. But whether people want to do na or whatever thats up to them.
This post is more about the here and now with getting off the sub. Ie, the immediate wd we are experiencing .
Post recovery and not using can be covered in other threads. All very fair comments about it though.


Last edited by c1234 on Sun Aug 11, 2013 2:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 11, 2013 1:21 pm 
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Only real issue.... Other than the majority of this logic... Is that you are basically saying opiate addicts aren't really addicts, just weak people.

This is badly off base. False.

This is almost the same as telling a little kid that santa claus is real and continuing to keep that lie going their entire life... Alot may like to think that he is real but when they get honest with themselves... They know the truth.

And to say that wd is the only thing keeping many from "recovering".... Why not just not take suboxone then? Just di the 4 or 5 days and move on with your life? Because it's a disease and not that simple.

This isn't common sense problem.

If it was... Many would just do opiates for awhile and wise up and stop.

These changes that are made to an addicts personality are done emotionally, mentally, and spiritually. Usually via therapy or 12 step meetings.

Say all you want about how these people just make excuses to use or whatever, but you can't relate someone that's just depressed and doesn't use opiates to a depressed opiate addict. Huge difference.

This just hurts so many people....You essentially could be sending someone in the polar opposite direction into active addiction and not recovery.

Recovery is ongoing... Always... It's not a rehab and you're done. No past tense. Like recovering... Not happening.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 11, 2013 2:20 pm 
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Ive noticed my pupils returning to normal size.. i think. I am very happy about this.
After i finished at the gym yesterday i was in the change room washing my hands. I was checking out my pupils in the mirror but dont completely trust them yet. I needed to check them against a normal persons eyeballs. As i was leaving i tried to see another guys pupils as i walked pass. I had to do it immediately so i could remember how mine are for comparison.
It was difficult as i dont think he wanted to let me look into his eyes for any length of time but i was committed by then so persevered.
Upon leaving it dawned on me i probably shouldnt of been doing this in the gym change room. I think he has just put his pants on as well.
Thought about going back to explain... honestly...i just wanted to checkout your eyeballs. i was on a drug call suboxone and just want to see a normal persons eyes etc.. thought better to not bother. Will try and avoid him.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 11, 2013 2:46 pm 
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C1234,

Now THAT was a post worthwhile of reading! Who knows what that guy thought? Is he gay? Do I have a booger hanging out? LOL! Great story.

My 2¢ is that this discussion has been said over and over again. There is no right or wrong poster, it's all good stuff from everybody. For me, it does a lot of good to hear anything that might make me uncomfortable. Meaning, I identify with what a poster said.

The two main questions are, 1) after you're through with withdrawal and PAWS, what is going to keep you on the right track? I am a believer that some sort of recovery program needs to be in place before a person tapers and quits. 2) What are the long term effects of Suboxone? No one knows the answer to that one because it hasn't been around long enough. We have one member here who has been on it longer than anyone I know so I hope he posts on this thread.

Good stuff,

rule

P.S. This thread was resurrected almost 4 years to the day of the last post.

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 11, 2013 7:25 pm 
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Hi.
Re not using. Not sure really. But haven't used in 10 years. Even while in wd had absolutely no compulsion to use. Tried to imagine it but really couldn't. I feel.very far removed from all of that. I own a very successful medical al business, own a beautiful place and have a great girlfriend. I understand that i cannot use even just once. It may not repeat for a few weeks but as sure as night follows day there would be another excuse or time to do again. Then the intervals would just get shorter and shorter.
And everything will be lost. Or at least miserable.


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