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 Post subject: Quitting Suboxone
PostPosted: Fri Dec 30, 2011 2:26 pm 
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Hi, my name is Mark and I am trying to quit suboxone for the 4th time. The last time was in July of this year. After asking my doctor to put me in touch with anyone that had gotten of sub's he stated that there was no one he had in his program that had gotten completely clean. Just imagine my surprise "LOL" I was not surprised in the least.

After my July attempt my doctor sent to me another doctor. Now I went to him with the intention of getting off sub's. I have very good reasons for this. Anyway, this new doctor, as refereed by my old sub doctor, not only managed to convince me to stay on sub's but now got me to take an even higher dose than I had gotten down to. Yeah, I went from 2 mg to 24 mg? How did that happen? I am not LOL now. Oh and he got me to take the film and not the pill as I had been on for the past 2 years. Again, how did that happen?

Okay, well now I am down to taking 0.5 mg a day, starting today after having gotten down to 1 mg a day. I plan on taking the 0.5 mg for 3 days (Monday, Jan 2, 2012) and then drop down to 0.25 mg until Friday. On Friday (Next week) I will stop and just take 0.25 mg after 3 days of no sub's and then I will take 0.25 mg 4 to 5 days after that. Now I will also take a product I found through a person of no concern here, called "Withdrawl-Ease". This product is said to help with "PAWS". After Friday my last day of daily sub's I will have several 0.25 mg cut tabs on hand to take if really needed. I will also have 2 full weeks off work. That 2 weeks is actually 17 days off work. I must return to work on the 23rd of January 2012.

Does anyone out there know of this"Withdrawl-Ease", stuff? Does anyone out there have any helpful suggestions, that have helped others in the past to get off Suboxone? Please no criticism of my determination to quit sub's!

Thank you all for any help you can give.


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 30, 2011 3:11 pm 
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Hi Marc and welcome to the forum. I can hear your frustration and I'm sorry your doctors didn't exactly work hard to earn your trust. But it's extremely doable to taper off suboxone! I think you've come to the right place. Many people here have tapered off suboxone and are doing fine. We have members here who have stopped their sub treatment but are still participating on the forum. I'm sure they'll drop in and welcome you and share their stories with you.

The first thing I want to suggest to you is to slow down your taper. If you just dropped to 0.50 mg and plan to drop again to 0.25 mg in three days, it's my belief that's just simply too quickly. You need to allow your body more time than that to adjust to the new lower dosage. Doing it faster than that is why you end up with increased w/d symptoms.

But I see that you seem to have everything planned out, including your time off work. Is that flexible at all? Suboxone withdrawals are different than your typical short-acting full agonist (regular pain med). Because of the long average half life, the w/d don't start for 1-3 days, depending on your ending dosage. Sub's w/d tend to be more subtle (they say, I'm still on it), yet they seem to drag on a bit longer and sort of go on and off (some good days, some bad). I guess you could say sub w/d are more unpredictable than regular w/d. But it is pretty much agreed upon that they aren't as severe.

If you are flexible and can slow down your taper, that's what I would suggest. The slower your taper is the less severe both your acute and post-acute w/d should be. When I say to go slower, that includes spending more time in between dose drops.

As for that Withdrawal-ease, I don't know anything about it. Here's their page listing the main ingredients: http://www.withdrawal-ease.com/product/ ... gredients/ (Damn, that shit is $90!! For that I hope it helps!)

The best things for helping to ease discomfort while withdrawing are the following: Try to get a rx from your doctor for clonodine - a BP med that's used off-label for opiate withdrawals; try to get some kind of exercise in daily, even just walking around the block (you need to get your natural endorphins going); stay as active and busy as possible (the more idle you are the more discomfort you will feel and the more time will drag); hot baths really help; surround yourself with happy people and funny movies (more natural endorphins); eat well and if you're so inclined, practice meditation. In general, do the very best you can for your own physical and mental/emotional well-being. Your body was inundated with powerful opiates for a very long time and now it's without them. You need to naturally get your body working at peak efficiency on it's own, if that makes sense.

I'm sure I've left out something that others will mention when they swing by. Good luck to you and keep us posted on how you're doing.

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 30, 2011 4:49 pm 
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Hey there,

Thanks for replying. No choice. No change of plans. No way I am going to change the tapper and stop schedule. Couldn't do that even if I wanted to. Long story and when I am done I will be happy to put it out there

So that said, how about folks out there giving me some real advice. I understand all the feel good stuff. I really need to hear form folks that have helped others quit, have quit themselves, or know what others did to quit.

I will send all other posts to my situation to the thread "Stopping Suboxone" as the moderator suggested.

Mark


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 30, 2011 4:50 pm 
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Hey there,

Thanks for replying. No choice. No change of plans. No way I am going to change the tapper and stop schedule. Couldn't do that even if I wanted to. Long story and when I am done I will be happy to put it out there

So that said, how about folks out there giving me some real advice. I understand all the feel good stuff. I really need to hear form folks that have helped others quit, have quit themselves, or know what others did to quit.

I will send all other posts to my situation to the thread "Stopping Suboxone" as the moderator suggested.

Mark


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 30, 2011 6:13 pm 
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hi mark'. hope you can come off subs with the littlest w/d". i'm not planing on going off yet.
and i'm on 22mg for the past 26 months. but any drug is going to be hard to come off" and subs are
one of the easy'er one's. except for the possible paws. paws on alcoholism can go as long as 3 years or more.
i believe the docs no if some one is ready to come off this stuff, and be completely safe!! they don't care as much
about our suffering'. but the risk of relapse or death.


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 30, 2011 7:41 pm 
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I have read several post since I have started this forum and I have been a bit shocked at the advice of getting clonodine.(hatmaker I note you said to get doc to give it to him but I have read some post saying I got my hands on or try to get your hands on etc...) I admit you all know more than I do as I am totally new to this. I thought I would just share this short story about the first time I went to a detox facility and further every time since then I still cannot use clonodine. I want to. I try to but the first time I ever used it was years ago maybe two decades or so when I was addicted to xanax. I was admitted and waiting to be seen by the doctor and god I was so sick that a nurse decided to give me the usual cocktail of clonodine and Librium to help me until the doc could see me (which she lost her job over). I felt terrible because I remember when she gave it to me she was telling another nurse who was standing there that the doctor had been running very late in getting to his patients at the detox for admissions and something needed to be done to help the clients that were severely sick such as I until we could be seen by the doc. So she laughed and said “I hope I don't lose my job for this but here honey take these and lay back down until the doc calls for you” and I did.
I woke up eventually on a ventilator (as apparently it bottomed my blood pressure out and I went into respiratory duress and my heart stopped). I was never really told that it was for sure the clonodine but, later I was told by a friend that worked in a medical facility that it probably happened because I have a low blood pressure which runs 100 over 70 on any given day. Of course I being in acute withdrawals like I was my blood pressure did not run that low or she would not have given it to me as freely as she did, I think.
Needless to say I did not go back there on that occasion. I was weaned off the ventilator (a terrible experience) and sent home on my normal dose of xanax under direct orders from the doctor to not quit cold turkey so I sought out another form of treatment which was a long and slow taper of them wherein I still experienced seizures and terrible withdrawals, but I did kick that habit and I have never returned to that drug.
A year or so later, addicted to opiates this time, I went to a detox facility once again real sick at the admission process, not thinking nor really caring if I lived or died so when she went to give me the clonodine and librium, I mentioned I had a bad reaction to something they had given me one time at a detox, but all she did was take out the librium saying that she would wait and give me the other pill when I got a little more stabilized. I woke up/came to with my bed upside down (my head down low and my feet in the air drinking orange juice through a straw choking to death).
Hmmm okay I probably should have told her the whole truth but to be very honest, I thought mentioning it might keep her from giving me anything and I was so sick and I had convinced myself this was different as I no longer took xanax and she the educated one did assume it to be the librium was the culprit, but nonetheless I did not have as bad of a reaction but I mention both occasions to show the point that it was indeed clonodine that caused the reaction. This apparently can be a fatal reaction. Since then, I have been admitted to 7 more detoxes told the truth and on a couple of occasions they still gave me small doses of clonodine but I always end up not being able to take them after one or two administration/doses as it throws my BP into like 70/80 0ver 40 etc…my respirations are faint and I become somewhat listless and unresponsive. In fact this was how I got to try subutex before it was really a very well known drug. The detox did not give subutex, but he had ruled out giving me clonodine but he saw how effin sick I was so somehow he got it called into a local pharmacy in Daytona and my Mother had to pay a little under a thousand dollars (Nine hundred and something it often gets thrown in my face) for twenty one pills. I have no idea what the milligrams were. But wow what a difference that made. All the other clients were mad/jealous that I was under this special medication as I don’t remember too much but I am sure I bragged about it because I felt so much better immediately. The down side was I had to stay in detox a bit longer than expected as I would not have been allowed to leave with them (any leftovers).
I feel like I need to add a statement no angry post please. I know it was stupid to not mention it or make it clear to the next detox etc…that I cannot take clonodine I don’t need anyone from here smearing my nose in anything (sorry this is the only forum I ever get hostile remarks from so I am a bit on the defensive when I post things showing any stupidity) Otherwise I love this forum.

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 30, 2011 9:59 pm 
I can't use clonodine either. It drops my blood pressure dangerously low and makes me feel like I'm about to faint.

I don't know why anyone would recommend clonodine over Klonopin for detox, but I see it a lot. It's not like taking benzos for a week will produce withdrawal. Even after 2 weeks only the very slightest symptoms if any would appear. Wikipedias page on benzos links to a great study on the topic of how long one can take benzos before w/d sets in. If I remember correctly, only like 30% of the people in the study showed w/d symptoms after two weeks.

OP, I'm willing to bet your taper is gonna be harder mentally than physically..the mental aspect has always been my problem. You're going a little fast but it sounds like this plan could work.


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 30, 2011 11:19 pm 
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I honestly am starting to believe that we can psych ourselves into making the withdrawal period worse than maybe it might be if we were to keep a positive mindset but I am going to tell a story in maybe the introduction forum of how and why I believe this and to maybe get some others opinions on it as I find this to be very interesting that on this forum I have read a lot about people responding in their posts tellling others not to psych themselves into making it worst.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Dec 31, 2011 1:38 am 
That withdrawal ease crap is basically a $90 vitamin


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 31, 2011 10:29 am 
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My point exactly, Ironic. That's why I posted the ingredients of the Withdrawal-Ease...I wanted to illustrate that it was just a bunch of vitamins for $90. I certainly wasn't endorsing that stuff.

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 31, 2011 12:11 pm 
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Hey Marc, I understand that this is your plan and you want to go for it. You did a faaasssttt taper, but you already know that, so....

Here's what I think you should do: Starting now, take the absolute littlest amount you need to get through the rest of the time you need to go to work and function. This will drop your level of Sub down very low. Maybe you can take your Sub in very small doses (such as .25) when you start to feel shady. Then, as soon as you are off work, jump. You will be through your acute w/d by the time you have to go back to work.

I don't think the Withdrawal Ease is worth it. I did look into it myself and it's really just vitamins. You can go get them from your local vitamin store. Watch what you eat when you jump. The wrong foods, from my experience, can actually cause chills and sweats, along with the diarrhea. Exercise really does help. In fact, that is the one thing that reliably helped me. You don't have to start some crazy routine. Anything you do will get those brain chemicals pumping. Just walk, if you can. It will move it along much faster.

I did use Clonidine during my taper and jump, but my doctor had never heard of anyone taking it for w/d and wouldn't give it to me. Actually, he'd only gotten one person off Sub, so I think he just had very little experience with it....So, I ordered it online. I'm not sure you have time to do that or if you even want to. I started out taking only a half of the low dose tablet and it knocked me on my butt. I had to take a quarter of one and then go to a half, but it did really help me in the end.

I strongly suggest you don't flush your remaining Suboxone pieces once you jump. I absolutely don't want to psyche you out, and I do believe you can do this if you are determined that this is it. It's just always good to have a backup plan. If you got to the end of your 1 days and needed to function for work and were having too hard a time and feeling overwhelmed, you could take a tiny crumb. Even if you needed a .25 every other day, it would not be so bad, would it? Just keep that in mind. The worst case scenario is that you would have to take a tiny dose and stabilize on it and take it from there.

Best of luck! Please update and let us know how you are doing.

laddertipper

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 Post subject: Hi Ladder and All
PostPosted: Sat Dec 31, 2011 1:16 pm 
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Hi Ladder and All,

It seems as if your actually read my original post with the care that I wrote. I say this because your post is exactly the routine I am taking to complete this part of my Life. My original Sub Doc is in total agreement with this procedure. Of course he really has not had a sub user quit yet and I will be his first.

you know the sad part is that the doctor he sent me to just wanted to keep me on sub's? it really does not matter anymore. The time has come to get back to a true normal. don't get me wrong but I did need the suboxone in my Life. It's come time to move forward. I honestly feel that the suboxone help but in the end it also takes something away from me. I guess that would my Dignity. Sorry, but that's just the way I feel.

Okay, your advice is what I need to hear and also my thoughts as well. I know the Withdrawal Ease is just vitamins, $90.00 worth :) :) But I figure that can't hurt right :) Well at day 2 of 0.5mg, from 1.0 mg for a week and I have only slight withdrawals symptoms so far. That is due to the fast taper as you pointed out. I actually have colinidin but will not take it unless I need it to sleep, at night only. I don't think I will need to lower my blood pressure any more than will happen naturally from the suboxone departing my system. The 0.25 mg pieces I have are for emergency use only :) And I have plenty of those. I have also heard that I could cut those in half and I am prepared to do that, again for emergency use only :) :)

Okay, thank you all so much and please keep the good advice flowing.

Mark


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 03, 2012 4:37 pm 
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Hello All,

It is day 5 of alternation between 0.5 and 0.25 mg of suboxone. I am also taking the supplement "Withdrawal Ease" at night before laying down to sleep and again in the morning upon waking. I have only slight withdrawal symptoms as yet and that has been mostly due to the fast tapper.

As of this morning I decided that I would take off work the rest of the week due to shear boredom and my not having anything to do. I had cleared my calendar in anticipation of quitting sub's. Also I had 2 weeks of vacation approved already, a few more days didn't hurt and may very well help.

So, Friday was to be my last day taking sub's, but that has now moved into tomorrow (Wednesday) for my last 0.25 mg. If my understanding is correct then I should be in full withdrawals by Saturday morning, if not Friday night. I think this because I am on such a low does and have already some withdrawal symptoms. The half life won't mean shit. It may even start Thursday night in ernest.

Understand, this is my fourth try and I know that I am much better off this time. I have a much better understanding of the symptoms of suboxone withdrawal as opposed to straight up narcotic withdrawals. And it is the latter that I wish I would have manned up to over two years ago. I won't go there. This stuff did server it's purpose but now is the time to end it.

Folks please read all the posts relating to this and anyones other withdrawals and let me know anything that you think might help. I plan to keep a detailed log of my experiences over the next 3 to 4 weeks and will haply share those to anyone. And if you know anyone that managed to quit sub's please ask them to post their experiences.

Thank you all,

Marc

PS I have food, drinks (coffee, tea, water), Atavain, Imodum and lots of other stuff all on hand.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 03, 2012 5:17 pm 
hatmaker510 wrote:
My point exactly, Ironic. That's why I posted the ingredients of the Withdrawal-Ease...I wanted to illustrate that it was just a bunch of vitamins for $90. I certainly wasn't endorsing that stuff.


Oh no no didn't think you were! Sorry, didn't mean to insult your intelligence!


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 06, 2012 1:10 pm 
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Hello all,

Okay thanks for all your thoughts on the Withdrawal Ease but that was not why I started this post.

I stopped the sub's after a quick tapper down to 0.25 mg. Wednesday was my last dose. I had already started mild withdrawal symptoms (w/s). As of today I am experiencing that brick wall of concentration, chills in my legs mostly while sweating in the upper part of my body, a lack of energy and some diarrhea along with sleepiness and a feeling of restlessness.

From my past 3 or 4 attempts I know that I am doing better than I did before. Okay I am only out to 48 hours but remember I did a quick tapper and had all these symptoms but much milder. Below is a list of things I am taking to help get me through the first full week:

Clonidine, at night to fall asleep,
Ativan, once a day for restlessness,
Imodium AD, for only one reason (you guess it),
Ibuprofen, as need for pain (I feel 50 ft in 1986 and have had a lot of surgeries, right to last year),
Withdrawal Ease, (night formula) one at bed time, (day formula) one with breakfast (my coffee and Pop Tart).

I also have several 0.25 mg pieces and several 0.165 mg pieces, It is my thought that after 5 days if I am required to have some human contact and the withdrawals are too much, than I'll take one 0.165 mg piece. Hopefully that will be enough. If not I have the 0.25 pieces.

My real question on doing this (Above) is will this disrupt the withdrawal stage I am in at that time causing the withdrawals to be extended?

Also if anyone could give me any idea on what would be a good diet over the next few weeks? I have always just eaten what I wanted but that does not seem to be the case right now? what I am trying to say is that even with the Imodium my poor anus is starting to hurt really bad? (Sorry)

Thank you


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 06, 2012 9:17 pm 
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hi mark". i'm here for ya'. be easy with the ativan". about the low extra dose of subs. if you need it ? it is o'k by me' but it will make a delay on your duration of the tapper . remember it is very strong medication by micro/grams. sounds like you can do it this time. but weather you complete this or not? your not failing ". it is addiction.


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 Post subject: Still Going
PostPosted: Sun Jan 08, 2012 6:00 pm 
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Hello All,

Okay I am on day 5 or 6. Last night the withdrawals got to be pretty much. By the time I decided to lay down and sleep I had a bad time of it. I tool one of the clonidine and one of the 1 mg ativan but they did little to stop the huge amount of restlessness I was going through. Somewhere at about 0200 I took two 1 mg Xanax pills I had and they pretty much knocked me out. The bad thing was that I wound up sleeping until about 1100 and really could not wake up till after 3 cups of coffee, a supper hot shower and a long walk in the chilly air.

But now I am fully awake. The worst symptoms I am having today are some chills, a rough time concentrating, some GI issues, the yawns and bouts of sneezing.. I still don't have a big desire to eat but have forced myself to rely on Ramen and sandwiches plus tea and warm ginger ale.

If anyone has any ideas or suggestions for a better diet, pleas let me know?

Tonight I will skip the clonidine and ativan and just take the xanx.

I have taken long walks each day and have been forcing myself to keep my brain working by doing a model, reading and watching TV.

Any other suggestions will be taken with much thanks.

Marc


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 Post subject: withdrawals
PostPosted: Sun Jan 08, 2012 8:51 pm 
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Well Marc, I am not to sure how long someones deals with withdrawals on sub cause I take done but I do know that soemtimes withdrawals can be quitened by xanax as you say at night. Ibupropen atleast 800 mgs for the restless legs lomotil or immodium for the gastric problems and keep the diet with small snacks of easily digestable things. Water, Water and more Water to flush the toxins out. I would say you are feeling or have felt the worse part of it now but like I said I am not sure. Be careful with the HOT SHOWERS and CLONODINE as the clonodine can lower the blood pressure too low to face the hot shower.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 13, 2012 4:13 pm 
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Hello all,

I just didn't want to put the dreaded Friday the (you know) okay. It's been over a week now. I stopped taking that Withdrawal Ease. Still have my Ativan, and Xanax and started taking B 12. Drinking lots of water and tea. I have maintained a small diet. No big meals. On Wednesday, the 11th I had to take 0.25 mg. The whole leg issue was just too much. But I have not repeated this and hope not to.

Okay here are my symptoms; not sleeping all that well, chills and restlessness in my legs that gets worse as the day progresses. I have short bouts of sneezing, watering of the eyes while yawning (heavy at times). I have not had any true narcotic withdrawals. The last time I tired this I had heavy narcotic withdrawals for about 3 days and then the worst case of non-concentration. For about 7 or more days I could barely get a shower. I am happy to report that this time seems to be much better.

I have been keeping my mind working by reading, watching a lot of TV, building models and taking long walks (even in the cold). If anyone has advice on the whole leg issue please let me know. Thank God I still another week off, just in case. I think that this weekend will be the worst of it. If need be I will just keep myself sedated LOL. Oh I stopped the Clonidine as it was knocking the crap out of me, even at night.

Any advice folks?

Marc


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 13, 2012 4:59 pm 
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Quote:
If anyone has advice on the whole leg issue please let me know.


Are you talking about leg pain or restlesness?

When I stopped Sub, exercise and hot baths did the most to help my legs. Sometimes I would have to get out of bed and just do a bunch of deep knee bends and then stretch in order to get my legs relaxed. Soaking in a hot bath with a LOT of epsom salt (like several cups per bath) helped as well. If you have access to muscle relaxers they might help, and I think that there were some members here who used neurontin or gabapentin for their RLS during withdrawals.

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