It is currently Thu Mar 30, 2017 6:44 am



All times are UTC - 5 hours [ DST ]


Our Sponsors





Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 8 posts ] 
Author Message
 Post subject: Question for 12-steppers
PostPosted: Mon Apr 04, 2011 7:44 am 
Offline
Long Time Member
Long Time Member
User avatar

Joined: Wed Apr 29, 2009 12:55 pm
Posts: 4933
Location: Leesburg, FL
As some of you may know already, I don't do NA/AA programs, although I tried them several years ago. It just wasn't a good fit for me and my beliefs (or lack thereof).

I seem to remember, however, that part of the program is the notion that people are not supposed to judge another's sobriety/recovery. Is this true? It's something that came up in a discussion with a friend of mine and since I don't know enough about the subject I thought I'd turn to those that know more than I.

Thanks in advance for shedding some light on this for me.

_________________
-As I have grown older, I've learned that pleasing everyone is impossible, but pissing everyone off is a piece of cake.

-I'm only responsible for what I say, not for what you understand.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Judge all you want.....
PostPosted: Mon Apr 04, 2011 7:59 pm 
Offline
Super-Duper Poster
Super-Duper Poster

Joined: Thu Dec 17, 2009 8:58 pm
Posts: 322
Hat, people are people, they talk... I think its ok to look at someone and come to the conclusion that " they have a shitty program " The important thing is not to repeat things heard or said a meetings.. You can judge anything you want. Since you dont go to meetings , I would'nt worry about anying other than getting in trouble for gossiping.. If you really care about someone, I would not be afraid to say something , dont just talk the talk , walk the walk, Mike


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Apr 05, 2011 8:23 am 
Offline
Super-Duper Poster
Super-Duper Poster

Joined: Thu Nov 25, 2010 6:39 pm
Posts: 311
Hatmaker,

In a perfect world, yes...you are right about the 12 step program. Unfortunately, we are human and we make those mistakes....it's funny you mention it right now because yesterday i was driving around, thinking, praying, trying to decide if I should take a job in another city, stay here, or even move to Europe with my son...and when I'm in this contemplative mode I tend to listen to AA tapes. When there is a huge AA convention or whatever people with lots of sobriety tell their story, they record them and sell them for people to listen to....i really like listening to them because most of the time it is people who have been in the program a really long time, who really get it and have worked it and are in a good place in their lives...So I was listening to this guy talk about how a new comer to AA, his sponsee I guess, was bitching about his wife and bitching about someone else in the program. And the sponsor, who was so funny, was telling him that in no way was he to even think about his wife's (or anyone elses) program....to leave that to another woman to help her and the sponsor of the guy he was complaining about...That his only concern need be his own program, how to work it, what to do etc. And none of the rest of it was any of his business.

I really needed to hear that because so many times I think I might know what someone else needs....or if I'm having an issue with someone i'm quick to judge their recovery or wonder about their recovery when in fact its none of my business. I can barely take care of my own life, why do I think I might know what someone else needs. For me, on a personal, not professional level, that is how I believe the AA/NA program should work. I had a sponsor once a long time ago tell me (when I was complaining about my then husband and his behavior) that I need to focus on my own problems only and as I do that everyone else around me will change. My first thought was GREAT! My jackass husband will finally do what I think he should do....but obviously that wasn't the point. The point was all I can do is change me. And to even try to point out to him what I think was wrong with him was futile...it only made our relationship worse and how did I know what he needed? I didn't. and I don't.

So I realized that I've been doing that again with some friends...acting like I know more than they do about their lives...and i don't. And even in a professional setting I do not tell anyone what to do...I will give ideas if they ask but my job is really to listen and help them figure out what they need. Same is true for AA i think.

Ok, a long winded answer. Big surprise. But another part of your question is really about accountability. That's why having a really good, trusted sponsor is important, to me anyway...because she is the one person who I allow to come to me with concerns she might have about what's going on with me...that she might see me isolating for example, or depressed, or doing some form of insanity that I am prone to do (the same thing over and over expecting different results...) and help me process through it. But even in that circumstance i think we need to give someone permission to point things out...find one person we trust and who has what we want in recovery and be accountable to them. That's why when i say we can't do this alone I am not talking about the fact that we aren't smart enough...but usually we are too smart...and can wiggle our way out of anything...talk ourselves into any rationalization. So there ARE times when someone should point out things that are happening..in a caring, non judgmental way. I've epsecially learned this by making mistakes doing it the wrong way...

Hope that helps


Top
 Profile  
 
Our Sponsors
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Apr 05, 2011 8:46 am 
Offline
Long Time Member
Long Time Member
User avatar

Joined: Wed Apr 29, 2009 12:55 pm
Posts: 4933
Location: Leesburg, FL
Thanks so much, Chinagirl, for taking the time to give me such a comprehensive explanation. It really did help me to understand that part of the program. It makes a lot more sense to me now. I understand the idea of it, but I also see how of course we are all human beings, too, and how the role of sponsors work into the mix.

I guess the timing of my question was just right because a friend of mine who's on suboxone was talking to someone in NA/AA and the usual thing came up - that person judging her level/dedication to her recovery/remission because of her suboxone treatment. It just seemed to me that it was hypocritical or counter to the ideals of the 12-step programs for them to judge her level of recovery, which led to my question. Gotta love coincidences!

Plus it always seemed wiser to me to take care of ourselves long before we (as people, not even as addicts) to try to judge the way other people live their lives. We often don't know near enough about other people to try to say what is right for them.

Again, that's for taking the time to explain it to me. I really appreciate it.

_________________
-As I have grown older, I've learned that pleasing everyone is impossible, but pissing everyone off is a piece of cake.

-I'm only responsible for what I say, not for what you understand.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: aa sayings....
PostPosted: Tue Apr 05, 2011 9:20 am 
Offline
Super-Duper Poster
Super-Duper Poster

Joined: Thu Nov 25, 2010 6:39 pm
Posts: 311
Your welcome, Hatmaker. AA has a lot of sayings as many know...some are trite sounding but for the most part they really are true. One of those sayings came to mind when reading your response....and that is Live and Let Live. I think that is the best way to do things....unfortunately I usually forget about that saying! But its true, like you said...no matter if in recovery or not....we are not here to judge. we are here to help each other (my belief) in whatever way we can. Some higher power or part of the universe, or God or whatever will do the ultimate judging.

I know so many who have had that struggle in meetings when they disclose being on Sub or methadone or Klonopin or other benzos....my sponsor is on benzos...legally...and so that was probably why she hasn't judge me for being on Sub. She knows I am on it and knows I had been on methadone prior to changing to Sub and it has not been a problem. But I know that is not the majority of the thinking in AA. I just don't talk about my Sub use to anyone else..unless they are on Sub, too. I've heard even my dr who is a psychiatrist, understands 12 step meetings and really gets addiction say NOT to disclose my Sub use in meetings if I don't want to. That is not a secret. it's my personal and confidential medical history that is no one elses business. If I was taking sub illegally, or even getting it off the streets in order to remain clean that is a different story....I think there is a slippery slope in that case.

So I feel for your friend who is being judged...it is NO one's business. That is between her and her doctor. I have a friend who had a similar experience. Once his sponsor found out he was on Sub he dropped him. However when he was having surgery and needed pain meds that same sponsor apparently said "hey that is between you and your doctor, its none of my business" Interesting, huh? Why Sub WAS his business?

As I said, I just don't talk about it to anyone. Except my sponsor. And just like here....we do need to remain open to others' recovery programs, right? Mine works well for me and I'm happy to talk about it to anyone who asks...but that doesn't mean its the only way. I've def had a love/hate r/s with AA. When i stopped going, stopped doing what I was doing that was helping me I did relapse. There were many reasons for the relapse...a lot of stressors all at once, huge stressors...but I didn't think I needed AA any more and when i saw a vicodin I remember thinking 'one won't kill me....it will just take the edge off of this emotional pain'....and so in a split second I took it...then took another one realizing one just wouldn't take enough of the edge off after all....and that led me to a 2 year relapse....after having five years clean and sober that thought that it wouldn't do any harm was powerful. That was five years ago....and it still took me another 3 years to get back into AA even though I had been stable on methadone. But for me now the quality of my life is better...so I'm back in a love r/s with AA! rambling on here....I just know how easy it is to think our way is the best way..when in fact its only the best way for us...not necessarily anyone else.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Apr 05, 2011 12:34 pm 
Offline
Power Poster
Power Poster

Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2011 11:34 am
Posts: 81
people are people... folks will gossip. Its not for one to take anothers inventory but also the program is about rigorous honesty.

The program spells it out very clearly what is considered clean. MMT and BMT is not considered clean. I see no problems with anyones choices to be on mmt or bmt but I surely never considered myself clean. I did go thru the "honeymoon" phase and felt that sub was the answer to my problems but soon found out for me, it wasnt. Actually added more problems.

I would not collect cakes or key chains while on sub. But for me, I understood that I was on maintanence. I dont understand why anyone on mmt/bmt dont see the same. Being clean is pretty black and white for me. Either I am using a opiate to survive or I am not. I cant wait till I can walk up and get my 24hr/30 day/90 day key chains. Its right around the corner for me though. I dont agree or bite everything the program states, but have gotten good tools from the program on how to live a drug free life.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Apr 06, 2011 7:03 am 
Offline
Long Time Member
Long Time Member
User avatar

Joined: Wed Apr 29, 2009 12:55 pm
Posts: 4933
Location: Leesburg, FL
Thanks for the responses. I personally don't believe it's human nature for people to gossip or judge other people. I also try my damnedest to not see things in black and white. The world is full of gray areas and if we fail to see the gray areas we are missing out on a lot. My point, as I think Chinagirl explained pretty well, is that our place is to attend to our own recovery/remission and leave others to attend to their own. I don't think that's just an AA/NA idea, but I "like" ideal, too.

_________________
-As I have grown older, I've learned that pleasing everyone is impossible, but pissing everyone off is a piece of cake.

-I'm only responsible for what I say, not for what you understand.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Apr 06, 2011 11:05 am 
Offline
Power Poster
Power Poster

Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2011 11:34 am
Posts: 81
yeah.. i sorta agree with what your saying Hat. But also I think it nessa for those that was able to walk away from opiates to share how they did it. we are all different, different backrounds and different experiences. What works for one may not work for another.

I do see the world way too gray right now... hehe. I know that is not what you meant. For me... it pretty simple. I am on dope or not. Beleive me, I wish I could stay on dope the rest of my life, but I need a productive life for my family. I wish I was one of those that can dabble with opiates and walk away.. just was never my make up. So for me I have to look at being clean as very black/white. Dabble didnt work. Meth did get me off the streets but also held me back in my career. Sub did work for me for a short time. I was pretty happy at first. But then things started to change. I seem to fall in the same boat as I have read at other sites.... I began not answering my phone, having a hard time socializing. began having panic attacks. Its strange that so many that went on sub had the same affect. We all know how hard it is to get off and maybe some can stay on it for life. I am not one of the lucky ones.

Well... if its not human nature for peeps to gossip then we have a hell of a lot of screwed up folks out there.

I love the program. Have met some great folks that are willing to listen to my crap. willing to come get me when I cant seem to muster up the energy to get out. This great guy Capt (who use to post here) is willing to set aside his life to hlep me. Thats saying something for sure. He says that is the way he stays clean... but passing it on. I dont really get that but I am soonn to find out.

two days of this life and hopefully it will be over for me. One way or anther it will be.

birdie


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 8 posts ] 

All times are UTC - 5 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 0 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Our Sponsors
Suboxone Forum latest topics RSS feed Subscribe to the entire forum
 

 

 
Fond Du Lac Psychiatry
Dr. Jeffrey Junig, M.D., Ph.D.

  • Board Certified Psychiatrist
  • Asst Clinical Professor, Medical College of Wisconsin

Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group