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PostPosted: Thu Aug 08, 2013 10:02 pm 
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Briefly, I was an opiate addict for upwards of 2 years. I got completely clean without using anything over 3 years ago. I went cold turkey, went to rehab, and followed up with NA. I didn't look back or relapse. I have since married, had a child and bought a home. Yay for me, right? Except that the farther I am into "recovery" I have more and more issues with depression, anxiety, weight gain, and exhaustion. I have been on so many different antidepressants that I can't count them. I am at the end of my rope. In fact, I suffered from depression before I used as well and had been on several drugs. Bottom line, the only thing that worked for me was opiates, but I was addicted and it was not a positive thing. I guess I'm just at the end of my rope. I want to go on suboxone to treat my recalcitrant depression and anxiety. I know that it has side effects and withdrawal symptoms, but so do so many of the antidepressants that I've spent tapering on and off over the last few years with no positive effect. I know that a dr. would be hesitant to treat someone who is not currently using, but I don't know what else to do. I know that suboxone is used at times to treat depression. Is this a viable option for me? What issues should I consider? Can I go thru a regular psychiatrist to get on this Rx or do I have to pay outlandish amounts (which is not feasible for me!) I have good insurance and I just want legitimate help. Any one have any input for me? Thanks.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 08, 2013 11:03 pm 
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If you have come this far without using drugs, just keep doing it.

But.

You WERE an addict?

You just put it all in the past?

Doesn't work that way.

It's not just a bad few years you can walk away from and grow out of or something.

You ARE CURRENTLY an addict.

Good luck to you.


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 09, 2013 12:29 am 
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I choose to believe MovieMaker didn't really read your post and request for help before carrying on about semantics and labeling.

Curious- there have been a few people here who have chosen the route of Suboxone treatment for depression. Sounds like you know there is a lot of pro/con weighing to do, and only you can make that decision in the end. I have no personal experience with how easy it is to get a doctor on board with sub/depression treatment but hopefully others will chime in. You could look at the "buprenorphine and mood" section, or you could also do a forum search of the keyword "depression." I know there's been some interesting threads on this in the past, I just don't remember off hand and I'm on my phone.. I can search tomorrow for you of you'd like.

Good luck!! We're here and listening if you need to talk or pick our brains.

(Hugs)


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 09, 2013 11:17 am 
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Thanks, Tinydancer. I will look over the forum and see what I can find out. The prior poster reminds me of why I don't go in the rooms anymore; opinionated and unhelpful. Oh well! I probably will end up just using exercise and meditation instead, but I want to know my options. Thanks again.


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 09, 2013 2:48 pm 
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I see you found Geo's thread, that was a good one. Maybe PM that member as well so a notification will be sent to their email.. It would be nice to see how Geo is doing..

Some other threads are:

using-suboxone-only-for-depression-darken-blog-t6303.html

viewtopic.php?t=4986

viewtopic.php?t=6752

http://www.suboxonetalkzone.com/bupreno ... epression/


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 19, 2013 1:59 am 
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You might be able to convince a sub doctor that you are very close to relapsing and that is why you need to be on a low dose of suboxone. It could work!

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 19, 2013 7:32 am 
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Please only resort to buprenorphine treatment if you have tried all other alternatives with a professional first. This drug is in many peoples' opinion, only necessary as a maintenance tool for people with life-threatening addictions, or people who are not responding to all other methods of antidepressant treatment. This drug is not a joke, it can make people far worse than they were before they started taking it.


Last edited by Sub Off! on Tue Aug 20, 2013 4:59 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 19, 2013 8:36 am 
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Sub Off,

Please be careful when telling someone that "Buprenorphine could also permantly damage your brain to the point of it never being able to function properly again". I know you mentioned this is NOT common, but I would love to see some proof of your statement. Perhaps you could supply us with a link or two that provides that information.

Suggesting to someone NOT to try bupe is far from being helpful in my opinion. I can promise you right now that if it weren't for bupe, and Suboxone, I would be dead laying in the gutter long ago. It not only saved MY life, but it has provided me with an opportunity to get myself in "working order" and back to a life I am proud to live right now.

It's certainly true that Buprenorphine is NOT for everyone, but for those of us that have had so much success with it, your statement makes it look like I/we made a horrible decision. Maybe there is one person out there in my same place I was considering taking Suboxone/Subutex, reads your post, and goes another direction and fails.

And another thing....I won't say Suboxone cured my depression, but it sure made it 100% better! I now look forward to what each new day brings instead of never wanting to get out of bed in the morning!

You may be unhappy and having difficulties at the moment, and i'm sorry to hear that, but I on the other hand am doing fine and loving life right now while tapering my dose down on Suboxone. All I'm saying is to just PLEASE be careful what you say.

Thanks,
Karen xoxo


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 19, 2013 12:03 pm 
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Yes, I truly believe that Bup will help you tremendously with Depression. I was depressed so much after I got clean and I got on an antidepresant (Lexapro). It helped for about 6 months and then the depression hit again, so I doubled up on my MG on Lexapro and that helped for about a couple of weeks. I knew deep down inside that the depression was stemming from a lack of opiates on my receptors. Lexapro could not fill that void. So I got on Suboxone and it was like a switch that went off. Depression was gone.
I still take suboxone along with 20mg of Lexapro and I can't tell you how much better I feel about life, my job, well you know ...everything. I really think that Addiction is a disease with which you must treat like any other disease that requires medication. Suboxone treats addiction whether you need small milligrams or a 16mg dose every day. Each person's tolerance and metabolism is different.

I think Suboxone is a great move to help with your depression and addiction problems. I do feel that Suboxone also works together with some recovery plan in place whether its going to a therapist or meetings.
All the best to you!


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 19, 2013 5:18 pm 
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Thanks so much to everyone who posted. I will update if and when I do go on Suboxone. I'm sure that's the underlying cause of my depression since I simply have not been myself in so long. I know that being clean and free of all drugs is ideal, but I certainly don't feel free of anything at the time being, even tho I haven't used in over 3 years. And struggling with depression and anxiety is not really living. I will update this thread if anything changes, and please feel free to leave any comments, since I don't want to start any medication that causes more harm than good.
Thanks to all,

Curious1


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 20, 2013 4:57 am 
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Sorry to have caused upset Karen, I've edited my post as I felt appropriate. Sure, there was sensationalism and unquantified claims made in the initial post - but I was going through hell caused by, lest we forget, the drug which this non-dependent (ex)addict is talking about getting dependent on.

No. Don't do it. Buprenorphine is a life saver for some, true - but those are people who are at risk of dying everyday from street drug overdoses, and even then, detox would be a more appropriate route than indefinite maintenance. People are told lies by their doctors who really have no clue what it is like to be an addict - they're just educated professionals who know their drug containdications, interactions, side-effects etc. to a T, but don't know what LIFE is like on them. From what the internet seems to show, many people feel like they are misprescribed buprenorphine, and many on maintenance seem to think they have spent too long on it because of the addictiveness of bupe. Opioids are six of one and half a dozen of the other at the end of the day, and I would implore this gentleman to avoid using opioids to treat depression and anxiety unless he has exhausted all other natural and traditional clinical routes to no avail and is feeling suicidal. Just feeling depressed and lonely is not enough - at the end of the day we all get depressed and feel loneley, but the ones who learn the best coping mechanisms are the ones who manage the best.

I'm not ignorant to clinical depression, but this man doesn't say that he has clinical depression. Even if he did have clinical depression, buprenorphine should still be a last resort, after traditional SSRIs, MAOIs, etc.

I would suggest pulling your socks up mate, exercise, eat properly (cut out fast-food as that stuff is full of additives which can be addicting in their own ways) and try and find new hobbies - cut out alcohol if that is making you depressed - just try harder and don't resort to something you know will make you feel better initially (because that's all bupe will do - you will eventually become sick of it, but maybe you will be too far into the frying pan then to ever return).

P.S. While this is not a particularly clear study of whether or not buprenorphine permenantly stretches the endorphine sites in human brains, it does show that some alterations of endogenous morphine (natural endorphin) receptor sites in rats occured after high dose bupe dosing: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1805810/

Cruel study, though...

Be careful!


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 20, 2013 6:42 am 
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Hi Andrew,

Thank you for taking my post in the positive manner in which it was intended. And I truly appreciate the gesture of editing your post.

I just wanted you to know that I would be the very FIRST person to suggest that Suboxone/Subutex and maybe Methadone be used as a LAST RESORT when all other methods have failed. I myself was proof of my standing in that manner....

I was a heavy user of narcotics. I tried tapering many times and failed miserably. I tried jumping CT also. Same result. I knew that subs were my very last chance if I was to ever end my abuse, and the vicious cycle I was in. And so far it has made the difference in my life that's for sure.

For those that use very low quantities of narcotics, or other opiates, and have used for fairly short periods of time, I would ALWAYS suggest and recommend they try CT or tapering several times BEFORE giving subs a shot like I did.

I was worried your post may have deterred those that REALLY needed to give bupe a chance to maybe re-think their decision that's all. Scare em away I guess?

Anyway, no arguments here Andrew and you certainly have my respect. Your a good guy and I hope you get things working in your favor quickly.

Karen xoxo


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 20, 2013 2:16 pm 
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Karen, no issues with me love - I'm as hippie in flavour as they come. Peace and love.

I totally get where you are with sub, and why it has worked for you and will work for some.

My issue with subutex is that it is over prescribed, too easily available for people, and actually sold off as something of a miracle for people who are vulnerable to positivity (namely, depressed people and addicts). It is not a miracle drug - it is a synthetic, highly potent, opioid analgesic - presenting the same physical problems (arguably worse in this specific regard) that all other full agonists pose. Sure, heroin/fentanyl withdrawal is nothing anyone would wish on their worst enemy, but I would rather my worst enemy have to endure 5 days of fentanyl withdrawal than 3 weeks of subutex withdrawal. I could only make this assessment after having experienced both subutex and heroin in terms of withdrawal.

I may have views you disagree with in terms of the use of subutex as an addiction treatment - this is just life - people disagree. But in so far as someone without any physical dependence - the answer in my mind is non-negotiable - it must be made as difficult as possible for someone to get on subutex in such a circumstance. And since there is such a clear economic reason for people to be prescribed subutex, I feel it is my duty to be as nasty about subutex as possible, in the hope that this man can save himself what we're all battling to get through.

Love Xx


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 20, 2013 2:37 pm 
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Hey there sub-off,

I just wanted to say that I appreciate your opinion on subutex/suboxone being used as a last resort in people who aren't currently addicted to opiates. I will go no further on my personal views in such matters because how I feel has no bearing on what I wanted to say here.

I appreciate the fact that you and Karen have different opinions on this matter, and yet you both have been able to get your point across without becoming bitter and argumentative. We have had these kinds of discussions in the past, in fact all to frequently. And they usually wind up with someone getting mad and calling the other stupid, or something of the sort.

In a forum of this size there will always be different opinions, and people who don't completely agree. But it should always be handled in a mature and kind way, just as it has been here. Thank you both for showing others how to respectfully disagree!

Q

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 20, 2013 3:00 pm 
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Karen said "I just wanted you to know that I would be the very FIRST person to suggest that Suboxone/Subutex and maybe Methadone be used as a LAST RESORT when all other methods have failed. I myself was proof of my standing in that manner...."

I don't understand the thinking that suboxone should be used as a last resort for people addicted to opiates. Opiate addicts are going to have to detox whether it be with suboxone or with their drug of choice. Only with their drug of choice people are going to be detox many many times after each relapse. Saying try cold turkey first is kind of ridiculous. I have never met one person addicted to opiates who hasn't tried to just stop taking pills. How many times should someone have to detox before suboxone becomes appropriate? I for one wish I would have started suboxone a long time ago before my addiction got as out of hand as it did. Why should we tell people to wait until they have lost everything? I think it would be great if people utilized suboxone before things turned into a "last resort" situation.

With the relapse rates being around 90% for someone stopping cold turkey why would you want to detox over and over again when you could be on suboxone live a normal life and detox one last time when you are ready?

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Last edited by SqueakyCleanKS on Tue Aug 20, 2013 3:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 20, 2013 3:03 pm 
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I really appreciate you saying that Q. Means a lot to me! :D


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 20, 2013 3:38 pm 
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Squeaky, I really like the point you brought up. I, too, question why Suboxone would be used as an absolute last resort. As a last resort med, should I have gone to a 30, 60 or 90 day detox first? Should I have tried NA and SMART and AA and sticking cigarette butts up my ass first?

Suboxone is a tool to treat opiate addiction. The only prerequisite to getting Suboxone should be that I'm addicted to opiates.

Suboxone shouldn't be any harder to get into than a rehab facility or NA or SMART because like those, it's a tool.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 20, 2013 3:57 pm 
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Romeo wrote:
Suboxone is a tool to treat opiate addiction. The only prerequisite to getting Suboxone should be that I'm addicted to opiates..
I couldn't disagree more. Do you agree with codeine addicts being put on bupe Maintenance? codeine is simply an opiate. Must better define what you mean; just being an opiate addict is not reason enough for buprenorphine to be presented into the equation.


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 20, 2013 4:04 pm 
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SqueakyCleanKS wrote:
I don't understand the thinking that suboxone should be used as a last resort for people addicted to opiates. Opiate addicts are going to have to detox whether it be with suboxone or with their drug of choice. Only with their drug of choice people are going to be detox many many times after each relapse. Saying try cold turkey first is kind of ridiculous. I have never met one person addicted to opiates who hasn't tried to just stop taking pills. How many times should someone have to detox before suboxone becomes appropriate? I for one wish I would have started suboxone a long time ago before my addiction got as out of hand as it did. Why should we tell people to wait until they have lost everything? I think it would be great if people utilized suboxone before things turned into a "last resort" situation.
I understand your initial sentiments, but you don't make the distinction between detox and maintenance with regard to the argument - I'm saying maintenance is usually the outcome for patients, and that isn't necessarily at all helpful - it more often than not exacerbates the problem. Sure, hard line addicts have their demons to face, and that is what it is, but "opiate addiction" is a gradient and buprenorphine (at least on a physical level) is at the extreme end of that.


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 20, 2013 4:14 pm 
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I'll say this for those that need an explanation concerning my statements. I want to be completely, positively, 100% CLEAN.....and in - MY OPINION ONLY - being on Suboxone is NOT being 100% clean. I want to live my life with NO mind-altering drugs present in my system whatsoever! Period!

As a result of my beliefs, I would try EVERY METHOD POSSIBLE first and foremost before going on subs. And I did just that. I did not want to go on another opiate to end an opiate addiction. Like trading one addiction for another, and I personally did not want to do it that way. My opinion.

I attempted CT several times, I tried to taper several times too, and nothing worked for me so of course I went to Suboxone and now I am attempting to get off yet another opiate. So that's why I make the statements that I did, and I stand by them.

Everyone has there own plan. Everyone has there own way to hopefully end their addiction and drug abuse. Everyone is different. Mine is mine alone.

Karen


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