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PostPosted: Tue Aug 20, 2013 4:23 pm 
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Well, trying Wellbutrin for the 3rd time. I'm sure it will work like a charm. I definitely don't need to be strung out on opiates again, but my situation at present is less than bearable. Thanks for all the input.


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 20, 2013 6:19 pm 
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Sub Off,

IMO, Opiate Replacement Therapy (ORT) is a completely legitimate way to deal with opiate addiction, whether the opiate is Codeine, Heroin, Oxycodone, Hydrocodone, Oxymorphone, Morphine, etc.

It's not the opiate that determines whether Suboxone is needed, it's whether the person is an addict or not.

Now, as far as I'm concerned, the dose of Suboxone one receives should be on par with their addiction. A codeine addict who's taking 50mg of codeine a day probably doesn't need to be started out on 24mg of Suboxone.

It's quite apparent that we disagree here, but that's to be expected. This is a complex subject with many facets and no two people are ever going to agree on everything. We're both entitled to our opinions.....even if yours happen to be wrong. (J/K!!)

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 20, 2013 11:05 pm 
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Ok here's my thoughts...

Someone addicted to codeine could start suboxone treatment maybe they will up their tolerance, but they would end up doing that on their own anyway. They could start suboxone and get their life back in order or....

They could wait a few years till their tolerance goes up and their shooting heroin into their veins and they've lost their house, family, kids and everything else they own and love. Then they could start suboxone treatment and try to get their life back in order.

I agree with Romeo addiction is rarely about what substance is being used or how much of the substance is being used. It's about the obsession for the substance, and the inability to stop.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 21, 2013 12:10 am 
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So. I will say that I was wrong to say what I did... WHEN I said it. I was correctly read by tiny... Only read the previous post.

However.

You can't possibly say who needs or doesn't need suboxone. No matter if it's tramadol, codeine, or oxys. Doesn't matter. What matters is that they couldn't stop taking them, it was greatly effecting their life, and this medicine is available to opiate addicts so they can live normally without worrying about using/going back into active addiction way of life.

You all are more than welcome to taper and jump off, but will you use other drugs? Will you relapse? Probably. I mean. I'm just being honest with myself these days... Opiate addicts can take sub and work on their lives daily or stop suboxone and be all about recovery life every hour of every day via 12 step work... And even then it's a 5% chance of not relapsing. I don't know when this wave of "WE can just get off this stuff and live our lives because I'm not like those other addicts that need this stuff to live fully." but our chances of staying clean are slim from the get go... Unless we do everything we can recovery world wise or take suboxone... So I don't know who started this all you have to do is exercise enough and keep yourself busy and life will be better than ever. It's just crazy.

These other drugs still cause problems for opiate addicts, whether you want to admit it or not. Too many times their are complaints about suboxone causing side effects, but they currently take 9 antidepressants, Benzos, smoke weed, and several other behavioral meds. But it couldn't be any of those things.

Anyways. I don't say anything meaning to be mean or offensive to anyone. Really. I don't. I just have experienced it, watched many others experience it, read about many that have experienced it, and it just all doesn't add up to what is preached here. How many that jump stay clean for a year out of 20? Shoot... Out of 10? Even those we learn from the most on this forum have been off and relapsed several times and back on. I guess I don't have the fearlessness to test those waters again and possibly die. That's what awaits us in relapse. Death.

Now. If you have used opiates for a few years and have stayed clean and happy for years... Keep going and doing what your doing. But. Being clean and absolutely depressed is no way to live... Unless you have 6 years to wait to feel kind of normal. The receptors in our brain have to regrow after many years of use, thus the wd and paws. They don't get "permanently damaged". They just die and regrow... So the higher your tolerance, the more receptors you have to regrow, thus the idea behind tapering. So yes. On paper it all looks good physically. But mentally... Nothing has changed unless we have worked our asses off to change them every day of our lives.

I don't know why this is such a taboo way of thinking when we watch plenty people go off and come back because they had no idea what they were in for. Sure. Still on suboxone is easy to say you'll be fine off of it. It's just not the case 9 times out of 10. Or why it seems completely reasonable to have a plan of just exercising alot, crafting, and staying too busy to use at work. Do you honestly think that will work? If so. Then why not just do that instead of suboxone? Ya know? Cheering that person on isn't just dangerous for them but irresponsible of us. Seriously.

So. Sorry to OP for typing before reading everything. I didn't mean to upset anyone, I just want people to get better... And stay better. Not just better in 4 month spurts.


Good luck to all in this madness.

/|/|. /|/|. Uno


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 21, 2013 9:22 am 
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I'd like to chime in here. I respect all of the opinions expressed. However, ultimately this was raised by Curious1 expressing that he's experiencing severe depression. This can be just as life-threatening as addiction alone and needs to be taken very seriously.

As a psychologist, I admit to my bias and am going to suggest you try psychotherapy. Psychotherapy is a very general term and there is wide variability among individual therapists. However, if you have the opportunity to find a therapist you connect with, many people make tremendous gains in improving symptoms of depression. If you don't have access or finances get in the way, you might want to try some of the better books out there. A few really good ones are:

"The Happiness Trap" by Russ Harris
"When Panic Attacks" by David Burns (don't let the title fool you, it is an excellent book for depression, not just anxiety difficulties)

I'd like to say that financial issues can be overcome, but for many it is just too challenging to get into good therapy without adequate financial resources. So, although I strongly recommend being persistent, trying to negotiate therapy fees, etc. and getting into therapy, the above books are excellent resources and tools to add to your overall recovery plan.

And keep asking questions and getting support wherever you can! Staying connected is invaluable.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 21, 2013 12:47 pm 
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Thanks for chiming in, I appreciate your input as a psychologist. I do have good insurance and I have sought therapy for the last year with a really great therapist who I respect. However, since I used to work as an RN and I have tried everything from psychotherapy to books to upwards of 6 medications over the last 3 years. I guess I'm just immune to the whole "cognitive behavioral therapy" thing, since I know all the tricks. It's like being told you are on a placebo. Even before I used I had worked with several therapists and was taking zoloft. Since I haven't been able to stop crying for the last 4 days I think I will go to bed for now and see how I feel later.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 21, 2013 4:02 pm 
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To the op, life is hard people struggle, how much are you exersizeing every morning? What is your social life like? Do you have meaningful work or something else to fulfill you? What do you eat for breakfast everyday? what time do you get up in the morning? Do you have anything that fills that spiritual void that we all long to fill one way or another? Fix all of these problems before you decide to jump back Into opiat addiction just because life sucks. That would be the worst thing you could possibly do. It will have its perks at first just like any dr prescribed dope, but its gunna have a corrosive effect on your health and your relationships years down the road. Years down the rode its gunna take you lower, and if later on down the road after your dependent on subs what if you decide you want off ?what makes you think you will be able to do that later on when your drug addicted and weak if u can't take life now?


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 24, 2013 4:01 pm 
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I think it's fair to say that none of us have a crystal ball. To assume that the OP's life will fall apart later is conjecture and nothing more. Even if this has been your personal experience, it doesn't mean that the OP will follow the same path.

Curious1, while I think you need to think about all the pros and cons, you know better than anyone what you need right now. If a maintenance drug like suboxone is what can help you, proceed with caution, but proceed. Take the lowest dose you can to drag you up from your dark hole, so that if you need to get back of the sub it will be less of a struggle.

If this is a life or death situation, do what you can to live and don't worry about the naysayers.

Amy

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 24, 2013 7:58 pm 
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I wish I could agree with that statement Amy, but in this particular field of medicine... There is almost a crystal ball.

It'd be nice to think that you could walk away unscathed and just work out and stay busy and never pick up drugs again. I agree.

But it's just not plausible for an opiate addict. You have to consider the fact that opiate addiction and other addictions aren't the same. So when looking at the facts and the data, we must null all information not about strictly opiate addicts.

I can agree that we can't tell someone what will happen to them in the future with no doubts at all. We can however tell them many things that are next to promised.

We are all in the same boat here. Denying experience of others time and time again is crazy. It's like the kids getting off and getting back in for the 3rd time thinking this time will be different, but until they become honest with themselves about this stuff it never will. It's insanity.

Finally. The addicts not on suboxone have that pain if not using drugs, it motivates them to go after solid recovery and really cling to life with it. Suboxone... There is no pain or desperation like that from the first week on... So we fool ourselves into thinking that life is all sewn up and we have living down pat. I guess it's easy to say how easy it will be to not take this stuff, move past it, and live a great life... When you're still on suboxone.

Maybe you think this is stupid, but I just refuse to lie myself into that train of thought again. It's dangerous.

A leading PhD in Neuroscience who is also an opiate addict believes in has studied/researched and watched thousands of addicts do this same thing (being a sub doc as well) and I'll gladly point anyone that would like to get some more info in his direction... Usually to a book on this very subject.

But. Nah. Not for me. I got this. I'm okay. I feel great and I'm going to beat opiate addiction... The deadly relapsing disease that is uncurable... And you have to convince people that they have it. ;-)


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