It is currently Fri Aug 18, 2017 10:07 pm



All times are UTC - 5 hours [ DST ]


Our Sponsors





Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 13 posts ] 
Author Message
PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2012 1:43 am 
Offline
New Poster
New Poster

Joined: Mon Jun 18, 2012 1:30 am
Posts: 2
Hey Guys,

Everyone has their story as do I. Very briefly, I started with oxy and percs about 3 years ago and have probably quit cold turkey over 5 times, I moved and had to switch to the dirty H and quit cold turkey from doing about 3/4 a gram a day. Got back in heavy and started doing 1g a day, got suboxone, and it worked great for about 3 months then relapsed and for the past 2 months Ive been doing 1.25-1.5 grams a day. OH and I smoke, I dont mainline.

Anyways the purpose of this topic, I have tried to start suboxone 3 times the last month and each time has failed miserably. I waited about 12 hours after my last dose and was feeling horrible, I took the subs and it made me sicker than I have ever been in my life. I was back at my dealers house within 6 hours of my first dose and it seemed to take off the edge contrary to many saying it would do anything. I was reading around the forms and stupidly tried to do what i read in a topic, which was to take like 4mg of suboxone a couple hours after your last hit and going into precipitated withdraw, toughing it out for 6-8 hours then feel fine, BOY WAS I WRONG. I have never felt so sick in my life, I almost went to the hospital I felt so bad. I tried to tough it out but again ended up at my dealers house. I had roughly 32mg of subxone in me and felt so shitty. after a half a gram I dont feel great but Its ok.

My question is with 32mg of sub in my right now, would I go back into precp withdraw if I took more subs after I finish the H i had. ANyways I NEEED to get going on the subs, I have 3 months worth.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2012 4:37 am 
Offline
Long Time Member
Long Time Member
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jul 15, 2010 5:08 am
Posts: 1503
Hey HeroinPhil.

Give yourself about 2 days after your last burn of heroin before you dose your sub. You need to be in moderate withdrawals before you switch.

You will need to let your body purge itself of ALL its heroin before you switch. If that means waiting until you are in moderate withdrawals, that's what it'll mean. You may have to endure some of the residual symptoms of your precipitated withdrawal. It will get worse before it gets better.

I used to do a lot of switching between buprenorphine and heroin. If I was in your situation, this is a rough prediction of what would happen to ME (mind you I have a fast metabolism of drugs). If I had Sub 2 hours after my last hit, went into PW and used heroin for relief... I'd wait for the heroin to wear off. Some lingering precipitated withdrawal may be experienced but that would slowly improve. Then I would WAIT another 12-24 hours until I felt regular old opioid withdrawal to kick in as the dose of Sub wears off. Only after that withdrawal grows to an uncomfortable level would I have another Sub dose.

You MAY be able to get away with dosing sooner, but it's important to err on the side of caution. You've been giving yourself ridiculously little time since you used to do your switch to Sub. I don't know what forums you're hanging out on, but to dose 2 hours after a hit is asking for punishment.

If you think you will struggle with cravings, or find it hard to endure without seeing the dealer, I'd suggest seeing your doctor (do you have one?) and seeing if he can give you some non-opioid medication to help you through the transition.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2012 5:22 am 
Offline
New Poster
New Poster

Joined: Mon Jun 18, 2012 1:30 am
Posts: 2
tearj3rker wrote:
Hey HeroinPhil.

Give yourself about 2 days after your last burn of heroin before you dose your sub. You need to be in moderate withdrawals before you switch.

You will need to let your body purge itself of ALL its heroin before you switch. If that means waiting until you are in moderate withdrawals, that's what it'll mean. You may have to endure some of the residual symptoms of your precipitated withdrawal. It will get worse before it gets better.

I used to do a lot of switching between buprenorphine and heroin. If I was in your situation, this is a rough prediction of what would happen to ME (mind you I have a fast metabolism of drugs). If I had Sub 2 hours after my last hit, went into PW and used heroin for relief... I'd wait for the heroin to wear off. Some lingering precipitated withdrawal may be experienced but that would slowly improve. Then I would WAIT another 12-24 hours until I felt regular old opioid withdrawal to kick in as the dose of Sub wears off. Only after that withdrawal grows to an uncomfortable level would I have another Sub dose.

You MAY be able to get away with dosing sooner, but it's important to err on the side of caution. You've been giving yourself ridiculously little time since you used to do your switch to Sub. I don't know what forums you're hanging out on, but to dose 2 hours after a hit is asking for punishment.

If you think you will struggle with cravings, or find it hard to endure without seeing the dealer, I'd suggest seeing your doctor (do you have one?) and seeing if he can give you some non-opioid medication to help you through the transition.


Thanks for the response. I am currently seeing a doc thats prescribing subs to me. I could never in a million years last 2 days before dosing suboxone. Ive timed it and about 10 hours after I begin experiencing moderate witdraw and by 12-14 im in full blown withdraw.

SO just to clarify what u said. I took my last dose of heroin at 0.00, at +4 hours after I took 4mg, +6 hours after last dose I am in full blown precip withdraw unable to leave my bed unless its to throw up or use the bathroom,. I toughed it out for another 4 hours to about +10 after my last dose and took 12mg more of subs. It made me feel a little better but basically just witched from severe stomach pains and nausea to extremely achey joints and restlessness. +14 hours after last dose I end up taking a 16mg more with no relief to withdraw. I last to about +18.5 hours after last dose the agony gets to me and I go grab a gram for relief. Now here I am about +22 hours after last dose and I still dont feel great but I can sit still in bed and time actually is going by at normal speed rather than withdraw clock.

So you are saying after I finish the gram to wait as long as possible and then try dosing suboxone again? IF i were to dose more suboxone now would I go back into precip withdraw or since I have so much sub in my system be good?

Thanks for your help bro, appreciate it.


Top
 Profile  
 
Our Sponsors
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2012 6:07 am 
Offline
Long Time Member
Long Time Member
User avatar

Joined: Wed Apr 29, 2009 12:55 pm
Posts: 4933
Location: Leesburg, FL
Quote:
So you are saying after I finish the gram to wait as long as possible and then try dosing suboxone again?


Yes, not to speak for him, but that's what I would say.

Quote:
IF i were to dose more suboxone now would I go back into precip withdraw or since I have so much sub in my system be good?


Yes, again, I would say that if you don't wait longer after taking more H, then you'll just go into P/W again. You have to wait after the heroin to be in moderate withdrawals (like TJ said), before inducing onto suboxone. Now that said, the P/W you felt is NOT how you'll feel while being in moderate w/d. P/W are extreme and hellish compared to "regular" withdrawals.

You CAN make it to wait to induce onto suboxone. Everyone has been there and felt the same way you do right now. But we all made it through that approximate 12-24 hours in moderate w/d.

Think of all you have to gain by making it through one day or less and what you have to lose by going back/staying on the roller coaster ride of active opioid addiction.

Check out this COWS (Clinical Opiate Withdrawal Scale) that can help you ascertain when you are in the right amount of withdrawals in order to avoid P/W.

http://www.naabt.org/documents/cows_ind ... _sheet.pdf

Lastly, definitely listen closely to TJ's post. I've never experienced P/W; I only have knowledge of how suboxone works. But TJ has personal experience on inducing onto sub and suffering P/W, so he really is a good person to give you the best advice.

Good luck to you and you CAN do this. Remember why you're doing it and keep the end goal in sight.

_________________
-As I have grown older, I've learned that pleasing everyone is impossible, but pissing everyone off is a piece of cake.

-I'm only responsible for what I say, not for what you understand.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 1:18 am 
Offline
Long Time Member
Long Time Member
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jul 15, 2010 5:08 am
Posts: 1503
Methadone may be an option in your situation. It may be that Suboxone's ceiling effect doesn't saturate your receptors enough to hold your cravings, hence your need to keep running back to heroin. The transition to methadone is a lot smoother than for Sub - one of its few benefits over Sub - and it won't be as rough on your body if you are not ready to stop using and keep swapping and changing... Like Sub it will act as a safeguard against overdose by keeping your tolerance high.

That being said the methadone option is not ideal. I've been on methadone and Sub and prefer Sub by miles, because methadone is just too strong an agonist to have saturating my body 24/7. However it may offer you a period of stability and allow you to be more "prepared" to take on life on a partial agonist like Sub.

Don't give up on Sub just yet. The important thing is that you're in moderate withdrawals before you switch to Sub. Another thing that's important is you don't take huge doses to try and relieve your withdrawal symptoms. This will just leave you none when you need them in the coming weeks, in which case you will likely resort to using heroin again and the whole process will repeat. Understand that there is very little point, if any, in taking a dose over the ceiling level. ie doses over around 8-12mg have no extra effect, thus don't relieve withdrawal any better. All these higher doses do is extend how long Sub will remain in your body.

I'll be honest - it's not the best sign for your treatment if you're unwilling to experience a bit of pain to get the rewards of recovery. If you really want to get clean, then maybe find somewhere safe you can hang out, or have a relative hold onto your phone and money... get a couple of benzos even... but it's important your body is purged of all its heroin before you induce. And the longer you wait, the more relief the Sub will offer, and the smoother your transition. You gotta man-up and take a bit of pain if you want to feel the freedom of recovery. Sub is NO cure. It doesn't do the hard work for you. All it does is helps us on the way, like crutches help someone with an injury.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2012 1:18 pm 
Offline
Long Time Member
Long Time Member
User avatar

Joined: Sun Feb 19, 2012 10:52 pm
Posts: 519
Location: CA
Hey HeroinPhil...just wanted to stay welcome to the forum. Did you end up taking more sub? If so, how long did you wait, and how do you feel?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2012 6:28 pm 
Offline
Average Poster
Average Poster

Joined: Mon Aug 20, 2012 6:03 pm
Posts: 4
I once, stupidly, injected 5mg of methadone then 5 hours later injected 2mg of a sub strip and boy was that terrible. Talk about instant pain.

But I have found that with methadone, a long acting opiate, you can take subs at the LEAST 12 hours after a methadone dose. But that all depends on the full agonist dose and how much sub you take.

15mg 'done then 12 hours later, around 3mg
Of a sub tablet and I felt fine.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Apr 16, 2015 3:37 pm 
Offline
New Poster
New Poster

Joined: Thu Apr 16, 2015 3:29 pm
Posts: 1
Hello

I just wanted to say thanks for this info. I am right now in the throes of some serious PW, but just understanding why it happened and how long it will last makes it hurt a little less.

I have started subs w/o doctors supervision: if anyone knew about my opiate addiction I'd lose my job, my house, and worst of all, my daughter. So this is for her...just wish I'd waited longer before taking g the first strip.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Apr 16, 2015 4:52 pm 
Offline
Moderator
Moderator
User avatar

Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2012 4:42 am
Posts: 4127
Welcome to our forum! I'm sorry you're in PWs! I was on oxy, not heroin, and my sub doctor wanted me to wait 48 hours before inducting on sub in his office. He was my only source of information at the time, and he gave me xanax, clonidine, and some anti nausea med for the withdrawal. After I was induced I felt on top of the world! Not high, just normal and not craving. I think his method is a little excessive, with an unnecessarily long withdrawal, but it was a great result.

I think the best thing to do (if you can) is get a friend or family member to stay with you and keep you from inducting too soon. The company helps keep you distracted too. I stayed with my cousin's wife and she took care of me. It sounds like you can't really share your addiction with anyone though. Is that true? I hope you will consider sticking around here for support. Suboxone is a great tool for opiate addiction, but working on recovery involves more than that. Lots of people who aren't addicts go to therapists. Hopefully you could find a therapist who also deals with addiction.

I'm serious about you sticking around here though. There is a lot of collective wisdom on this forum, which is run by a recovered addict who is a psychiatrist who prescribes suboxone. You can find support and friendship here. It can be very relieving to interact with people who know how you feel.

I hope the PWs go away very soon! Hang in there! You're doing a very good thing for yourself by choosing the stability of suboxone.

Amy

_________________
Done is better than perfect!


Top
 Profile  
 
   
PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2015 11:34 am 
Offline
Super Poster
Super Poster

Joined: Wed Mar 18, 2015 6:46 pm
Posts: 167
Location: Alabama
Hi! I just wanted to check to see how you're feeling today. I hope the PW has passed and that you're feeling much better now. Like Amy, my doctor made me wait a minimum of 48 hours before my first dose of Suboxone. He actually wanted me to go 72 hours, but the 48 (actually 50 by the time all the paperwork, etc., was done) was plenty.

Again, like Amy, I felt wonderful after about 30-45 minutes. It was just a "normal", comfortable feeling...and relief. No more worrying about whether I would be able to get my prescription for morphine...would it last, etc.

Please give us an update when you have a chance.

Thanks,
Morphing


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Jul 09, 2015 7:46 pm 
Offline
New Poster
New Poster

Joined: Thu Jul 09, 2015 7:28 pm
Posts: 1
It sounds like OP went in precipitated withdrawal, but stuck it out and put 32mg total of sub into his sytem. At that point, he went and got a g.

I'm going to say "Heroin" because that relates to the OP, but this is the same for any short acting opiate.

The reason you go into Precipitated Withdrawal is because Suboxone has a much higher binding affinity that Heroin (Your receptors prioritize Suboxone) while having a very low level of receptor activation. (It occupies your receptors, but does not stimulate them.) If you have a large amount of heroins alkaloids on your receptors, and you take suboxone, the suboxone instantly knocks the heroin off, but does not sufficiently stimulate your receptors to make up for the loss of heroin, causing a huge deficiency. It's like going through several days of withdrawal in 10 minutes.

When you have suboxone in your system, and you take Heroin, the heroin is not strong enough to remove the suboxone from your receptors,and therefore remains largely inactive, except maybe filling in the few receptors that aren't being occupied by subs.

If OP had that large of an amount of suboxone in him, the heroin would have had little to no binding affinity to his opioid receptors, and therefore, he could have probably dosed Suboxone any time after say, 4-6 hours without any issues. The reason he had not gone into withdrawal yet was because suboxone has a long half life, not because the heroin was still working.

IMPORANT! DO NOT take suboxone after only 4-6 hours UNLESS you have a large amount of suboxone in your system, to the point where it blocked a majority of the full agonist's effects(heroin, oxy, methadone, etc) Without any suboxone in your system, you need to wait a minimum of 12 hours for heroin and insufflated/smoked oxy. For Oral Oxy you should wait at least 16, and for Methadone, some say you should wait as much as 36. In all honest though, just follow the COWS worksheet that someone posted above. It only requires you to get to like a 5 or a 6 on the withdrawal scale if you're switching from heroin, meaning mild, pretty minimal withdrawal symptoms. Even then you should start small. I've taken 8 mg of sub and felt fine, took another 8 mg and went into PWD. Sub is a hell of a drug.

I never wait longer than 12 hours before dosing suboxone. IF I have taken suboxone that day, and i decide to get high anyway, I sometimes will only wait 6 hours and be just fine. Like I said, the suboxone in your system prohibits the heroin from binding to your receptors, so when you take more suboxone, there is no heroin on your receptors to be


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Feb 29, 2016 9:21 pm 
Offline
Average Poster
Average Poster

Joined: Sun Feb 28, 2016 8:24 pm
Posts: 9
I know this thread is old but I just went to the same thing and I sent myself into precipitated withdrawals and I was able to get out of them with Imodium AD and that just came to me from past experiences because I was about to take myself to the emergency room but anyways the next day I took my suboxone again and I did not feel the precipitated withdrawals but I also didn't feel good and here it is almost three days later and I'm still not feeling like I normally do on mysuboxone and I'm wondering why. Also I've been on suboxone for a year now and I only went back on heroin for 4 days before this happened so any help would be great and also I was just snorting around $60 worth of a for 4 days


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Mar 01, 2016 10:23 am 
Offline
6 Months or More
6 Months or More
User avatar

Joined: Fri Nov 25, 2011 6:14 pm
Posts: 269
Location: Petoskey, MI
Please excuse me if someone else said this, I didn't have time to read all answers gotta get to work. You mentioned that your h usage went up, of course as well as tolerance. I'm thinking the sub isn't strong enough to cover this.

_________________
PUGS NOT DRUGS


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 13 posts ] 

All times are UTC - 5 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 0 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Our Sponsors
Suboxone Forum latest topics RSS feed Subscribe to the entire forum
 

 

 
Fond Du Lac Psychiatry
Dr. Jeffrey Junig, M.D., Ph.D.

  • Board Certified Psychiatrist
  • Asst Clinical Professor, Medical College of Wisconsin

Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group