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PostPosted: Tue Jul 02, 2013 12:13 pm 
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My cravings are for alcohol. I had a brief relapse on it last week, but it really could have been worse. I am somewhat like you with not wanting to go back on suboxone. I feel like I went through all the weaning and withdrawal, and gosh darn it, I am going to be off of this stuff. The money and the hassle of going to the clinic every month is another huge motivator. I was REALLY hoping I was going to be one of the lucky ones who didn't have any cravings. But I think you hit on a difference - you felt drug down on suboxone. And you are happy to be your "normal". Normal for me has never been a comfortable place. I've suffered from depression since my late teens, which is also when the alcohol really started to become an issue.

Anyway, I have a boyfriend who is also very supportive. He met me while on suboxone, so he had never seen me drink alcoholically in the time we have been together. Or use opiates. To say he was upset by my relapse is an understatement. But he pulled me right back into sobriety, and we talked at length about whether I should go back on subs. We both decided that it's worth trying to stick it out longer without the subs. Let my emotions stabilize. I'm going to go on naltrexone, which supposedly helps with alcohol cravings. Part of the problem is that my life is not easy to take a break from at this moment. I have so much going on - but who doesn't, really?

I'm sorry, I feel like I am hijacking your thread! I know what the sweats are like, because I had them so bad when I was on suboxone. I think the sleep is worst for me. The days seem so long sometimes and I don't know what to do with myself. I hope it gets better for both of us soon.


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 Post subject: Freedom
PostPosted: Tue Jul 02, 2013 12:38 pm 
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Hi again, It is great that you have your boyfriend to support you in this. A support system is KEY! Also I think you are right to try something else rather than going back to the subs right away. Hopefully the Naltrexone will help you with those alcohol cravings. I myself have to stop benzos completely at some point. So I kinda know what you are dealing with. I have weaned my dosage for a good while now and am noticing I can go longer and longer amounts of time without any benzos at this point so that is progress. Plus some may think this is backwards thinking but it is working for me so I don't care what anyone else thinks, I switched from Clonazepam which is long acting which equals a build up of benzos which we all know after being on long acting subs causes a longer wd process over to Xanax and I only take it when I absolutely feel I have to at this point. I actually slept 6 hours woke up at 6 am and didn't even think about taking it until 10 am. So progress like I said!

I understand your frustration being busy and all. I have three kids so ya know what that equals!! I am sorry you are having a tough time, but I honestly think it is your mind playing tricks on you. Mine does it to me too, but for some reason I am able to jump my thought process onto a positive and stop the intrusive thoughts. If you believe you are depressed you will feel depressed. Have you been exercising? If not give it a try, it really does help! Also a lot of people say they have depression after stopping opiates so it could be that you are in PAWS and just feeling blue because of that! That will go away on its own in time if that is what it is. You are so tough, think about all you have made it through. Most people never get to the point we are at. You have come a long way already. I believe in you! YOU CAN do this, all of it, you have the power!


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 02, 2013 3:28 pm 
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hi greatestlove,
Are you working with a doctor for your benzo taper? That is one thing I haven't experienced, but I know it can be pretty wicked, and dangerous. I have a script for xanax and I did use it during the first 3 weeks of my sub w/d, but I could always take it or leave it. Just be sure you stay safe while you are backing off of them.

3 kids, wow! And you're hanging in there. I have one, but I'm leaving on Thursday to go help take care of my brother's two kids, who are both under 2. So I am totally stressing that. I think it will actually be REALLY good for me because I'll be way more active there and that will help with the depression.

You are right, there are many people who never get to where we get. I believe in you, too!


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 02, 2013 4:39 pm 
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And I believe in both of you!!! :D

Freedom, I think taking care of the kids will be good for you, too. For me, it's amazing how much better I feel when I'm not knocking around inside my head.

Greatest, congratulations on day 20!!

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 03, 2013 2:41 pm 
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Ok lets see, where to start. Yesterday afternoon and most of this day so far I have felt pretty crappy. Not like OMG horrible crappy, just sluggish blah and worn out. Pushing through all these days gets tiring especially with the lack o real sleep I am getting at night. Some nights are better than others though. Just a rough patch I am going through right now. So today is the same as far as wds, yawning tearing sneezing gassy stomach sweating under my arms like a crazy person again. UPs and DOWNs. At times I feel like I am backing up, then other times are better. A good day just means not too shabby a bad day means feeling pretty crappy. No where near 100% yet, but eventually this has to subside. I am still hanging on!


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 03, 2013 4:09 pm 
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hey greatest love,
Thanks for the update. I think you have more physical symptoms than I did, at least at this point. I really didn't have much trouble with yawning, tearing & sneezing, except for the first 10 days. And like I said, no sweating. But I would say that you are almost at the end. This past week, which is week 5 for me, was much much better overall. I seemed to peak with anxiety at around week 3-4, and now I am on a more steady improvement.

Except for the sleep. I never realized how sleepy suboxone made me. It's hard to know how much sleep I actually require at this point. When I get 7 hours, I think, that can't possibly be enough! I slept 10 on suboxone, and sometimes napped on top of that! But maybe I will just need less now?

The sleep I do get is still a struggle. I wake easily, have bad dreams, and wake up with jaw pain from grinding/clenching my teeth. I guess it's just going to be a gradual improvement, because it is better now than in the beginning.

Hope you are feeling a little better!


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 03, 2013 5:07 pm 
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Oh yeah, bad dreams.... I had a darn nightmare last night. I dreamed that I went out with friends on their Yacht at the lake and I was eating yogurt looked at the side of the container and it said it contained Suboxone, and was a new treatment. I flipped out went freaking crazy screaming It was awful then I woke up. ARG! So weird right? Yogurt LOL! Funny now but had me all confused when I first woke. I was like oh thank you God that was a dream. Whew!!!

Yeah I am not a lucky one LOL! I am getting it all... It stinks but Romeo said something that I totally agree with. For some of us we have to feel horrible in order for us to never want to return. God knows our hearts and minds, so He will break us to where we need to be broken so He can put us at right again. I have a hard head so I am viewing it that way because I believe that makes perfect sense. If you don't believe in God then whatever you do believe in. I do believe in God. I don't judge anyone else if they don't though! Wanna be clear about that. I'm no Holy Roller myself. I just have a strong sense of God in my personal life, He is my Higher power!

I am hanging though, it has to get better some time, I sure hope I don't have sweaty arm pits for the rest of my life LOL! Yuck right? Oh well pushing on along here! :)


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 04, 2013 7:45 am 
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I also have faith in God, and know that He guided me thru getting off of suboxone. I did so much praying that first week!

greatestlove, I hope you have a better day today! Keep updating, it helps.

I am in for a long 24 hours of travel. But 3 flights from now, I'll be arriving at family's. Always have to keep the end goal in mind, because the journey is not always fun.


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 Post subject: Freedom! and Day 22
PostPosted: Thu Jul 04, 2013 9:01 am 
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Hi Freedom, I hope you have safe traveling and have a great time seeing your family as well! I do plan to keep posting... Maybe it will help someone else. As well as myself....

Day 22, I can honestly say at this point If I had a labor intensive job or a lot of things I HAD to do I could do them. Maybe slowly, but I could do it. So for anyone reading after day 15 If I HAD to I believe I definitely Could! Even though my wds are hanging on they are not so terrible that I CAN NOT, but rather that I CAN. The progression is slow and takes time. Some people are lucky, some are like me and get it all as far as wds but they are tolerable where full agonist opiate wds were impossible for me. I know a man who stopped using Fentanyl patches after they caused him to OD even though He was using them as directed. He says he got too Hot and too much of the med got into his system at once. Anyway, He said it took him 45 days to even be able to think about working again. He is tough as nails too. Me I am a crybaby. He is not by any means a crybaby. I thought death would surely come trying to stop pain pills. It was just wayyy tooo intense for me. So sub withdrawals are not bad in comparison. I can totally remember how sick I was trying to stop pain pills, Oxycodone! I thought my heart would literally explode, I felt like I couldn't breathe. I was in shock, it was just awful. Going through this in comparison to that is so much easier. At least I CAN function. I may not always feel like it, but I do it anyway. Pushing through is what I have been calling it. I am just glad I am able to push through!

Still a chill, stomach cramp and sweaty arm pits will come here and there. UPs aren't as intense DOWNs aren't as intense. Things are trying to level off and improvement is happening gradually. Then I may feel at a moment like I backed up, but then that fades away too. It gets easier. I think a lot of it is just adjusting to feeling everything in life to it's fullest extent again and remembering how you felt before opiates helps you keep perspective at least in the emotional sense. I try to think back and remember HOW did I feel before opiates? Then I will remember certain things and it really helps me.

So day 22 and still going!!!


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 04, 2013 6:54 pm 
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How can God guide some people in withdrawals but not others? I certainly do not believe God exists, or else he would answer prayers of other people who are not just struggling in withdrawals, but in poverty, illnesses, war and diseases. It's all an illusion and all in the mind. One can claim movies guided them through withdrawal, or ciggerates guided them through withdrawals, the point am implying is that if you have something in your mind you can use it to get past certain obstacles, some just happen to think it's God in their mind..

A piety a so-called God does not guide those who struggle in life with no fault of their own, and there is no shred of evidence or proof that people can back up their claims of God guiding them through this or that..

Am glad though more and more people are not relying on believing in a God, that's the only way forward in life. The most intelligent and educated people are infact Athiests, the most successful people in their lives are infact Athiests or non-christians I can never ever believe in a God who claims those who do not believe me in are damned to eternal hell, not many people in the first world believe that notion anymore, infact do not believe in a God anymore. It's also been said Atheists or non-christians have a far more luxurious happy life then christians, one of the reasons is because christians tend to believe certain things which go against human nature and stops from them progressing...Like so many Professors and Scientists have said the more open minded and intelligent you are the more chance of having a good life, and majority of these people do not believe in a christian God..

Anyway on topic, yeah dreams can be very weird when coming off suboxone.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 04, 2013 7:45 pm 
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Hey Greatest and Freedom,

Thanks for sharing about your belief in God and how He helped you through. I wouldn't have made it to where I'm at without His help.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 04, 2013 9:21 pm 
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Sharing one's personal belief system can be risky. It can make you vulnerable to scorn from those that arrogantly think they know everything there is to know about God, including that there isn't one. I appreciate your willingness, Freedom, Greatest Love, and Romeo to be vulnerable and share your belief with us.

I, too, believe in a God who loves us and who gave us free will. I believe that much of the religion that sprung up from a belief in God is man-made and misguided. I believe that the Bible offers us a way to become closer to God through study and thought. However, I don't believe it is the direct word of God. Mostly what I believe is that Jesus Christ was here to show us how to live our lives. He took on the religious establishment of the day and championed those who were despised because of their poverty, sickness, and their status of being an outsider.

Believing in God does not make me anti-science in the least. It does not make me close-minded. What is close minded is assuming you know what others should think and believe.

Amy

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 04, 2013 9:46 pm 
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Thanks Amy........


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 04, 2013 10:18 pm 
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Icaras, I will not debate My God with you son! Get off my thread if you can't respect my beliefs. I have no problem respecting yours or anyone elses. What is wrong with you? I thought I made myself perfectly CLEAR in my post and this is my thread after-all. Show some respect. Maturity/?? maybe a good dose of that is the medicine that would suit you best!

Lean not on your own understanding, but with Praise and Thanksgiving Let your requests be made known to God, Our Lord and Savior and a Peace that surpasses all Understanding will be given to you! Can I get an AMEN! Amen

I have felt the power of God, I have seen the Power of God! Not in my head, through my eyes and in my soul!!!
Can't really argue with that! Peace!


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 04, 2013 11:16 pm 
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I was not personally attacking you, but just the God you believe in...And sharing my views, just like you are.

I was merely stating how there are less and less christians today in the world then they were in the middle-ages. If any religion is increasing it's that Muzzie religion or Islam, that actually makes more sense to me then the bible.. I mean common if one does not believe jesus as a savior he or she will go to hell? no intelligent sane individual believes this.

There is no evidence or proof of jesus being divine or anything... Early christians did not believe jesus as son of God, or the crucifixion.. The bible was edited and gospels were put all over the place during the Council of Nicaea. The book of Barnebas clears talks about jesus not being god or son of god or the ideology of being our savior... Plus Science has more or less disapproved most things in the bible. There is just too much evidence not to believe in your kind of God. It's a reason why non-christians and Atheists lead a better life, so why doesn't God help those who struggle? and free will is just a notion for those who cannot explain why God does not help people and animals and world.. Do animals have free will? some animals have to eat eachother to survive, that mostly means long pailful death, why would God make such creatures or way of life? just does not make sense and no logic to it.. Doesn't the bible say God will answer prayers? so where does free will come into it? what about people getting tortured, killed, raped and struggling in life even when they pray? why doesn't God answer their praryers?

Of course folks need comfort in death, in withdrawals and life struggles, and if that means believing in a God then so be it, but it does not make it true. UN said majority of the Caucasian/White population are too open minded and civilized to believe in a bible God. Those who have a good happy life tend to be non-believers. Thats all am going to say.

Good luck in your recovery and beliefs. Your going to need it.


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 Post subject: Icaras REALLY?
PostPosted: Thu Jul 04, 2013 11:44 pm 
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I did not even read your last post. I have no idea what all it says. I saw your trend in the first sentence and said UH NO!

I do not go to other peoples threads and shove my Beliefs in their face. How is that helpful?

If you are not here to be helpful then please just leave me alone. This site is not about debating religion. This site is not about debate at all! This is my journey! I genuinely wish you well on yours, without any sarcasm.


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 05, 2013 1:56 am 
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Icarus: the foolish boy who flew too close to the sun, then drowned because he did not listen to the wisdom of his father. Talk about irony.

You cannot extoll the virtues of scientific proof in one thread and deny the need for scientific proof in others without exposing yourself as a hypocrite. This is what you wrote in "Little To No Withdrawal??":

"Sorry but I will never rely on scientific studies or wait for them to come out when comes to pharmaceutical meds. I rather trust and believe the people who have first hand experience. Just because there is no scientific data to back people's experience does not mean it's not true or not prevalent."

(By the way, the word you were reaching for is relevant.) If GreatestLove were to say this, but replace the words pharmaceutical meds with God she would be using your same reasoning!

You throw out statements that are supposed to sound intelligent, but you have no evidence to back them up:

"It's also been said Atheists or non-christians have a far more luxurious happy life then christians"

or

"Those who have a good happy life tend to be non-believers."

Meanwhile, there is a relatively new study that shows that people who attend religious services live happier lives and live longer than those who don't: http://news.discovery.com/history/relig ... -bonds.htm

There are other studies showing that people in the United States who are religious are happier than those who aren't.

BUT HERE IS THE MAIN PROBLEM with your post, because we already know that you present your opinion as fact. The problem is that, for some reason about which we can only speculate, you seem unable to express your opinion without disrespecting other people.

It's not enough for you to say, "I'm an atheist and I don't believe in God for numerous reasons, but it sounds like your belief in God has helped you on your journey." No, you have to imply that people who believe in God lead less happy lives and that being an atheist "is the only way forward in life." You imply that people who believe in a Christian God are less intelligent and educated, and less successful than those who don't. Can you not understand why saying things like that is rude and demeaning and why that may be seen as a personal attack?

It would be so nice if you would just scoop up your pseudo-intellectual disdain and go play on another thread, or even better, another forum, but that's not going to happen, is it? Instead you will continue to dirty this thread with another round of implied or outright insults, without addressing the hypocrisy in your posts that is evident to every other person here.

Good luck in your attempt to prove that you're anything but a rude boy. You're going to need it.

Amy

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 05, 2013 8:11 am 
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Things do get better. Sleep progressing, emotions trying to stabilize. The ups aren't as overwhelming, the downs aren't as over-whelming. I'm not sure if it is just called adjustment or if it is the nature of the beast. Most times throughout the day at this point I feel OK, not 100% but ok! I will get there, I feel like a turtle though because the progression is slow. My main gripe is the sweaty arm pits all throughout the day off and on. If that is my main complaint, well I guess I don't have a LOT to complain about Right? Anyhoo, another day going through this feeling that I am making progress albeit slowly. I hope everyone is doing GREAT!


Amy, Thank you for saying everything I was thinking. Even your view on God and religion is the exact same as mine. I find that Rare, especially here where I live. You are a very intelligent person. WOW! :D Thanks again!


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 05, 2013 5:30 pm 
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If you used your brain you would realize here are many forms of sciences..You see Atheists will always figure out the difference and be more open minded..

For example Natural sciences is a more broad term than includes biology, chemistry, physics, geology, etc. It is the science of things found in the natural world.

Life sciences and medicine includes life sciences such as biology, microbiology, biochemistry, botany, zoology, ecology, etc. and the medical sciences such as anatomy, physiology, etc.

In this case I was referring to Science which concentrates on life, diassproving God and so on...And yes one can believe in this kind of science rather then medical science where there aren't any studies in regards to buprenorphine, so hence why I said I cannot rely on them..


I was not referring to medical science in this instance, but different kind science which infact has proof and evidence about history, fossil evidence, DNA etc and disapproved many things in the bible. There are many forms of Science, and I clearly mentioned pharmaceutical science studies are not factual as there aren't many when it comes to buprenorphine....

There is a difference between medical science and science which concentrates on non-medical matters, please learn the difference.

And no I do not believe that link you showed, I believe UN statistics, documentaries, surveys and first hand experience... Which all clearly state Atheists or non-christians have a much better life...

The church goers you refer to are mostly from the third world who do not know any better, but most white/Caucasian and Germanic peoples tend to be Atheists and more intelligent...

Why is Atheism spreading in the USA if church goers are happier then those who do not go to church? exactly.

It is a fact that some of the most intelligent educated people are Atheists...My evidence is people, like I said in my other posts on other threads that people's experiences in regards to matters of meds is enough for me to believe..

Science has proved many things that the bible cannot...Can you prove God exists? no..Can Science prove God does not exist? maybe not but I never said that is a fact, but Science can prove many things that the bible for instance states as fact.

I will rather trust intelligent educated Scientists then christians, because christians state they are right and factual, with nothing to back up thieir beliefs, at least Science can admit it can be wrong, but christians cannot, even with no evidence.

If most people for example say they find sub hard to get off then I will believe them and lean towards the fact sub is hard and does give people long PAWS..

If most people say they are happy being Atheists then I'll believe them and lean towards there being no God...But there is not a shred of evidence of a God or proof, yet there is proof and evidence of human origin, which bible has never explained, instead they claim Adam and Eve lol, again no proof of them ever existing.

Only the naive and narrow minded will believe something cannot bad if there are no studies, only the narrow minded will assume all Science is the same, when it's not.. Only the gullible will claim something is good without backing it up, or basically in the case of sub relying on studies in order to state something as fact.....

Try to be open minded and accept Atheism is spreading and many cleaver people do not believe in a God, or christian God, that is a fact, and there is tons of evidence and proof to back this up,. Some church goers might be happy but are they experiencing life to the full? they claim they might be happy when not, whereas Atheists tend to have a far more luxurious successful life progressing in all fields.. Take happiness aside and think of who makes the most progress, who has the better career, better relationships, better marriages, better state of mind, living life to the full, progressing, earning lots of money, even having better cars, all seem to point hat Atheists are people way above christians many aspects of life.

I hope you can see the light and accept what you believe has no basis or proof, you cannot believe in something which has no proof of evidence, at least natural Sciences do not claim everything to be factual yet when it does progress and makes discovery they back it up, can the same be said for the bible? no...

I said what I had to, and I believe I clearly won this debate. Please no bitterness or throwing tantrums like babies....Good luck in your recovery folks, and please read statistics carefully and trust reliable sources and stats, and not the fabricated ones.. Don't worry I won't be in this thread, so relax!

Ciao!


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 05, 2013 7:14 pm 
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Ummm, nice try, Icaras. But Amy bitch slapped you back to the stone ages....apparently you're the only one who is not aware of that. :lol:

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