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PostPosted: Sun Dec 13, 2009 12:51 am 
I've posted some other threads about dealing with mental illness and co-occurring mental disorders while taking Suboxone and in recovery in general. I had heard of and been warned about depression being caused by Suboxone, but I figured I was exempt. You see, I take 2 antidepressants, and 2 mood stabilizers. I've been mentally stable for some years now with no depression or significant anxiety or anything else to speak of. So now that I've been on the Subs for about 4 months, I'm getting some seriously disturbing thoughts. I mean really baaaad. Just thoughts like "I should be dead," and "I should swallow the whole bottle of 90 Subs I have in my drawer" and stuff like that. But it's only maybe two or three times a day....i made a dr.'s appt. for Monday, so I'll just have to hang on. Has anyone else had anything like this? I know enough to know that I would never listen to thoughts like that, and that I would go to the hospital first. I have had stuff like this before...I'm sure it's a combo of my brain chemistry and the Sub....but I suspect a certain subset of people may have a reaction like this. It would be interesting to find out how many. I def plan to stay on it....I'm going to lower my dose to 4 mg a day and jack up the antidepressants.
J


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 21, 2009 5:40 am 
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Yes I would definitely talk to your doctor ASAP. Myself and a few other people I know have been on Suboxone therapy for 7-8 yrs? now basically since it was FDA approved. One of them has mentioned to me that he is almost positive his Subutex is causing him great depression, now could it be the Subutex causing that? Or could the actual addiction [and all things that come with that] be causing that?

I dont know but I know I have had some pretty heavy bouts of depression relating to my Suboxone maintenence but I think it is mainly stemming from a long term benzo habit I just kicked. Just a note though anybody that has ever mentioned to me that depression can be linked to buprenorphine have been long term buprenorphine users.

Peace,
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 21, 2009 10:05 am 
J, I just read your post…..you’ve been on mine. I didn’t realize you had the some of the same issues. Interesting parallels with the Suboxone use and possible side effects… How are you feeling now? Curious what your doctor said? I’m not sure they’d believe it’s from the Suboxone. There’s too little knowledge out there about it and with a previous history, well, the unfortunate truth is I would think it would be pushed off onto that. I can only tell you my depression, anxiety, crying spells, suicidal thoughts went away since discontinuing but I still wonder if it was only because I was on too high of a dose. Or, if my brain just didn’t ever adjust to it for whatever reason. Did you ever go down to 4 mgs and if so, are you feeling better or adjusted there?


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 21, 2009 11:35 pm 
Well, Payton....
After reading about other people on this forum lowering their doses down to about 4 mg of Sub and being fine, I decided to do it too. In the last 3 weeks I went from 16 mg's to 4 mg's a day. And, actually, all sorts of negative symptoms have resolved!! First of all, the depression, while totally still there, has lost its "edge." Whether that's due to the reduction in dose, I don't know, but in my opinion it is. I just think that Suboxone keeps my meds from working quite as well. And also I was having a lot of joint and muscle pain, and that went away also, so I was able to stop popping tylenol all day long.
Actually, I went to an NA meeting last night, and realized that I may be clean and sober right now, but I'm also very lonely. My recovery is still very self-centered, so I need to branch out. I think some of my depression comes from my own self-imposed isolation. "No man is an island," and all that.
So are you really feeling better mentally, or is the withdrawal still too intense for you to be able to tell? I wish you the best, and also Merry Christmas to you and your family!


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 04, 2016 7:19 pm 
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Hi,

I've been on subs for about a year now and I just recently realized that I haven't smiled, laughed, or truly enjoyed life. I'm grateful to suboxone for saving my life and allowing me to come as far as I have, but I have never been so down in the dumps. It's like I'm incapable of being happy... My personality is just flat and ive become a ghost of my former self. I have no energy, I don't get out and do anything, I have no interest in hobbies or socializing. I was sitting in the waiting room at my sub doctor and the other patients waiting in there were discussing this topic. I never put the two and two together before then and I'm wondering if this drug is what's causing me to have no interest in life? There are many things I used to do and enjoy doing and there are many things I used to want to do in my life, but now it's as though I just exist without passion. I can go days without smiling or laughing. My personality is flat and I want myself back. I cried when I thought about this because this is a lose-lose situation. I could die if I go back out there and use again and I don't want to use, but I'm afraid I will get cravings if I stop the subs, but I don't want to live in a state of sadness and constantly feeling like I have nothing left to give in my life. What should I do? Can anyone relate? Thanks.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 04, 2016 7:42 pm 
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I am sorry that you feel this way, but I cannot relate in any way. I've never been so passionate and ready to take on the world!

I believe that it's estimated that 65% of drug addicts have co-occurring mental disorders, most of which have not been properly diagnosed. There is a strong genetic component to depression. Do you have relatives that have been diagnosed with depression or other mental illness?

I also have to ask if you've made an effort to replace getting high with any other pleasurable activity. That is an essential component of recovery. I remember feeling like I'd never look forward to anything again once I went on sub. I had to fill that hole with something if I wanted to look forward to living.

I don't think that doctors typically have enough insight into addiction to tell their patients that they will have to do more than just take suboxone to have a successful recovery.

So, I don't believe that suboxone induces depression. I believe that addiction induces depression and that suboxone is not enough to reverse that effect for some people. Suboxone is not meant to be a cure-all. All it does is put your opiate addiction into remission and give you time to work on yourself and improve your life. That requires effort on our part.

Amy

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 04, 2016 9:34 pm 
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Hey lguanababe. I hear you. I have bipolar disorder as well as opioid addiction, and have experienced depression that was related to low testosterone after being on Suboxone for 3 years.

I personally do have suspicions that in some people, buprenorphine treatment can contribute to depressive symptoms. I've spoken to many people over the years who have been on long term Suboxone or Subutex, and it's an ongoing theme. Especially I've heard from men who complain after being on Suboxone a couple of years, they experience a loss in drive/mojo/libido, extreme apathy, lack of motivation, lack of desire to socialise etc. Some of these men have gone on to get their testosterone levels checked, and found them to be clinically low (myself being one of them). Now whether this same problem affects women is difficult to say. There are women on this forum who have experienced those exact same symptoms, who have then stopped taking Suboxone and found the problems dissipate. One of those women still frequents this forum.

I think the only real way to ascertain whether Suboxone is contributing to your depression would be to reduce your dose a bit, and see if the problems diminish at all. Don't reduce it so much that you put yourself at risk though. What dose are you on?

Also, all opioids have a numbing effect to a certain degree. Buprenorphine isn't immune to this. Have you noticed you might not be enjoying music as much since taking Suboxone? In my experience all opioids have this effect. Methadone, morphine, heroin, oxycodone, buprenorphine. But if you ask me this is a small price to pay for the security in recovery that Suboxone affords.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 05, 2016 12:37 am 
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Like Amy, I have no depression since starting suboxone. I did however have it while using and that was from the opiates imo. Like Amy, I also believe that some ppl have depression issues that's not exactly recognized until u enter recovery and sub can get blamed for. I'm not trying to say that is fact...just my opinion and my experience with suboxone.

I've been so grateful to sub for helping put my addiction in remission and I've not had any major issues mentally. I also go to sub based meetings and see an addiction counselor, and that helps tremendously. Sub is a wonderful tool but u gotta do more to work on urself.

I hope u start feeling better and figure out what's going on. Feeling sad and emotionless has got to take a toll.

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 13, 2016 3:44 am 
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To Iguanababe, and ANYONE else suffering with this: I have been on buprenorphine in its generic form for six years. I have pain issues, but as you know, with opiates that leads to dependence. I agree with TeeJay 100%: work hard at reducing the amount you *actually* need. (*edited by jennjenn*) Suboxone has saved many lives, but you MUST use it appropriately. Which means only the amounts that keep you functional and not sick, more than that you will get a tolerance which will reveal itself as a chronic low-level depression. It SUCKS. You will think life itself has lost meaning, and that something's wrong with you. Trust me, you are normal and experiencing the effects of long term opiates. People with chronic pain on narcotics have the same problem, life kind of loses its meaning. Not because of pain, but the opiates are sucking the life out of them. Reducing dosage is absolutely key, I would say try a tapering program. If it fails the first time, try it again, and then again. With perseverance you will find success. Good luck and God Bless.


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 13, 2016 11:32 am 
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Jay I edited ur post. U cannot come onto this forum and talk negatively about the moderators here. I edited ur post and left the rest.

U joined this forum today with this being ur first post, I don't think u know anything about the moderators that u mentioned...myself and Amy. If ur a previous member with some agenda then message us directly instead of trying to bring it to the forum.

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 13, 2016 2:22 pm 
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Hi Jay, welcome! So sorry to hear about your having to deal with depression. I can actually say that suboxone has helped me in that area. I got hooked on tramadol as a result of osteoarthritis. I was also dealing with menopause induced depression. The trams gave me a lift in energy and spirit. I was taking about fifty 50mg pills a day and was prescribed 4 a day. I was buying them online and it was easy to do until the class of drug changed and it became impossible to get them unless you wanted to get them from overseas.I have been off of them for nineteen months and still get calls offering deals to ship them. I do agree with you about being on the least amount of sub that works for you. I started at twenty four milligrams and am now down to 4. I too am a moderator here and have answered you based on my feeling and experience. I believe that Jen and Amy were doing the exact same thing. I hope that you are able to find a solution to the depression that you are experiencing.


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 13, 2016 4:28 pm 
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jayy6346,

Let me first welcome you to the forum. That is something I do with everyone regardless of what they post.

You opened up a can of worms with your statements. Using language like "you will" or stating something that happened to you as a fact is going to ruffle some feathers here.

We've said it over and over again on this forum. Every person has a different experience with not only drugs, but food, environment, and just about anything they come into contact with. Each person reacts differently to life. One person may be happy as can be while taking Suboxone and another who is on the exact same dose may say that the Suboxone caused depression, or got rid of depression, or gave them hemorrhoids, etc, etc,..Do you get what I'm saying? What works for one doesn't mean it'll work for all. So please just stick with "as for me", or "my experience is". We even have another subject thread on here about how Suboxone works as an anti-depressant. Explain that one. See? You can't.

One more thing. Have you noticed a lot of moderators have posted to you in this thread? That is because when you say anything negative about the people who volunteer their time here to help other people they will join together and decide whether or not to show you the door out. Your post got edited instead. If you have something to say to the mods, use the PM system which is private. Do NOT bash any moderator/s or you will be banned. Plain and simple.

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 13, 2016 8:50 pm 
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I guess it's my turn. :wink:

Jay I am totally with you when you suggest tapering down to the lowest effective dose, but only when the addict feels comfortable with that. It's a very good idea. Any side effects that bupe causes in a person will recede as the dose gets lower.

I'm really big into science, and since I'm in school to become an addiction therapist, I read many studies. I'm always looking for new scientific research on buprenorphine good or bad. I haven't seen any research that even indicate that depression is caused buprenorphine. I will continue looking, however.

I empathize with your situation. Depression sucks. My 8 year old son (at the time) was diagnosed with depression and went to counseling for it. He was feeling so much better after just one session with the therapist and he went about 3 months. It was the second hardest thing I've ever been, with the worst being the sudden death of my mother. I hope that you and anyone else who is suffering from depression find the exact combination of things that can help.

Saying falsely that Jenn and I are not here to help is simply bullshit.

If you want to argue and debate things, please take the debate to Freestyle, Otherwise, unless you have scientific proof to back up your claim, don't present your opinions as fact. That's all we ask.

Amy

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 13, 2016 11:46 pm 
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This multi-pronged attack by the moderators (who have the power, there is no threat to them) has confirmed my suspicions that they do not care about people who have been negatively affected by suboxone, they simply want to advertise its benefits without much focus on the concerns. The two I was referenceing (and now to the subsequent ones) demonstrated no understanding WHATSOEVER of the concerns being raised, and I felt an obligation to respond. I usually have nothing to do with these forums and now you understand why.

One of them I know has done their due diligence naturally and discovered my identity and made problematic phone calls to my medical provider and employer. I think you are just making fun of me because you know that I am a middle aged overweight man with pain issues. This is the first and last time I will post on this website. At the very least I hope it has helped someone. Thank you.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 14, 2016 12:26 am 
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And to rule62:

Of course man, everyone who's had any length of time on bupe knows it works initially as an antidepressant.

I'm talking about the long term effects. Please re-read my post.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 14, 2016 12:31 am 
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jayy6346 wrote:
This multi-pronged attack by the moderators (who have the power, there is no threat to them) has confirmed my suspicions that they do not care about people who have been negatively affected by suboxone, they simply want to advertise its benefits without much focus on the concerns. The two I was referenceing (and now to the subsequent ones) demonstrated no understanding WHATSOEVER of the concerns being raised, and I felt an obligation to respond. I usually have nothing to do with these forums and now you understand why.

One of them I know has done their due diligence naturally and discovered my identity and made problematic phone calls to my medical provider and employer. I think you are just making fun of me because you know that I am a middle aged overweight man with pain issues. This is the first and last time I will post on this website. At the very least I hope it has helped someone. Thank you.


I wish I knew what you are talking about, because I don't have a clue. In fact, I'm sitting here with my mouth hanging open in shock and wondering what you are talking about.

None of us have any idea who you are! Only Dr. Junig can access peoples' email addresses and the like. We mods can't even look up IP addresses anymore because of whatever security Dr. J uses for this site. We have no way of tracking you and certainly no way of finding out who your medical provider and employer are.

There are several members on this thread and most people were questioning whether or not depression can be induced by taking a steady dose of suboxone.

I didn't attack you, and neither did anyone else. We disagreed with you and edited one line out of your post that said that Jenn and I don't care about the members here. That's all that happened.

I would never pick on anyone for their size or chronic pain. As I've already said, I have no way of accessing that information! My mother was morbidly obese and depressed when a pulmonary embolism killed at the age of 59. Both me and my sister share the tendency to be overweight too. And I am 44, which is pretty middle-aged if you ask me. My mother was the most kind, wonderful person, and yet I grew up hearing my father criticize my mom and threaten divorce because she was overweight. I reject that kind of talk and certainly wouldn't be taking part in anything like that! One of the reasons I let myself become an opiate addict is that I was trying to numb the resentment and anger I felt toward my dad and not properly grieving my mom's death.

The other factor that made me want to numb out is that my usually rational, logical, 8 year old son was diagnosed with depression. During that time until he got better, every negative thing coming out of his mouth landed on me. I was his safe person, so I bore the brunt of his emotional upset.

Can you please point out the ways in which you are being attacked by the moderators?

And again, I ask you for some basis of your claim that suboxone causes depression. That's not an attack. It's a question. All I am saying is that there is no proven link from suboxone to depression. I had also never heard of chronic pain patients that become depressed because of their opiate use.

Now you are welcome to leave and go elsewhere. However, anyone who reads this thread will know that you left because your opinion was challenged and you couldn't back up the subjective information you claimed as fact. You are also welcome to stay. Just because we may disagree on this issue doesn't mean that we can't find common ground. It's up to you.

Amy

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 14, 2016 12:34 am 
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Hey Jay,

I am so grateful for the MODs, their wisdom, instructive teachings on this forum and that they have some rules, which I like and need. They, like me, are addicts and are here to help us all, freely giving their time and efforts, asking very little in return - some respect, which we each are due. They've seen over time, lots of nonsense stated as well as tons of vulnerable folks that come here, needing real help. And over and over, freely offer real assistance with the hope that it might. Truly, for me, it has. Sometimes it comes w lovingkindness, sometimes its straight up talk. Imo, its always appropriate for the given situation. To me, I do not believe they would ever violate any confidence and seek out revenge in or outside of this site. I just don't. Best, P

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 14, 2016 12:40 am 
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Then just include the original quote instead of your description of it before its censoring: "Beware the two moderators - they aren't trying to help you." That;s all. No biggie.

And someone did call my after hours clinic because I got a call from them saying I said I wanted off my suboxone program. Right after I posted. Strange coincidence, don't you think?


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 14, 2016 1:06 am 
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Hey Jay,

And you? A provocateur? Your accusation that someone here called and lied about you to your MD -- is absurd. Good night, P

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Stopping went well -- its the staying stopped -- where the real work begins.
Coming here 'keeps recovery green'.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 14, 2016 8:37 am 
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Jay, All I am now getting from your posts is that you are in a bad place. I am very sorry about that! I hope you can find someone to talk to who you feel is a good listener and trustworthy. Your anger at Jen, Amy, Rule, and myself is misdirected. We have no way of knowing who you are and I am now even more concerned for you! You put yourself down and appear to be having feelings of paranoia. Please, if you are not getting the support you are looking for here, try other avenues. I wish you much luck.


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