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PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2011 10:22 pm 
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I see the posting rules and I really don't want to upset the moderators .... or anyone else but I just gotta pass this message on to anyone on the brink of induction to suboxone. Ask the questions BEFORE you begin and if for any reason you are unsure of yourself, take someone with you and have them ask questions. You can probably see where this is going, I didn't ask. I asked nothing. I was so messed up on oxy's, 20 of them every day, I hadn't eaten a meal in weeks, was nothing but skin and bones and I dragged myself to a sub clinic in an oxycontin haze. The assistant asked a lot of questions and the doc asked a few. They did some medical tests and deemed me sick enough to participate. The criteria for this clinic includes being a working person and preferably having benefits. I guess that's because they know the high cost will make some people eventually fail if they foot the bill themselves. So, back to my point. I didn't ask anything but they did assure me I would feel fantastic the second, if the first day of taking subs. I didn't feel good. It took me weeks to feel good. I am now on subs for 9 months and I feel like crap 5 days out of 7. I realize I am the exception to the rule and there must be some underlying reason for this although they tested me for everything so I can't imagine what it would be. Several weeks into the program I finally started getting the "real" info from the clinic. There IS withdrawal from subs. (yes, I was too high and too sick to do the research). In fact there's a bunch of stuff that comes with subs. I now take two antidepressants plus subs plus hormone therapy every day. I feel ripped off so bad. I know I can't blame them totally, I should have asked. I should have asked!! But shouldn't there be some responsibility on the part of the clinic to explain the process? When someone is sitting in front of them saying, I have no problem not taking the pills, I do it all the time but I can't stand the physical pain of WD. I told them this several times. I can NOT TAKE THE PILLS but I can't stand withdrawal. I really wish they had told me that I was only postponing the inevitable because I am now officially longer on subs than I was on oxy's. I really wish I was one of the many many many people who take subs and have a great experience. I hear it all the time. In the clinic I go to I hear it. I read it on the internet but for me suboxone just really sucks and I don't know why. I started at 24mgs once daily, he dropped me by 2mgs to 16 in June and I've dropped myself further to 12mg. I am starting to have good days more often but overall, man do I wish I could roll back the clock. I would seriously do the 7 days of oxy WD. Okay, so for anyone who might be reading this and already taking subs any info you can share on random periods of serious sweating (hair soaking, t-shirt soaking sweats), pins and needles in lips and fingers / toes, prostate issues, ..... any or all the above, please .... I would really appreciate hearing from you. I am in misery and don't know how to fix it. I am so ready to fire the sub bottle in the garbage but I know that jumping from 16mgs is probably gonna kill me.... or make me feel like doing it myself. LOL. You know what I mean. **If I have broken any posting rules in expressing those thoughts and my situation I apologize.


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2011 11:19 pm 
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Hi fishguy and welcome. I understand your frustration. Suboxone is a serious drug and warrants some serious consideration before going on. But just to play devils advocate, it sounds like you were in pretty rough shape when you got on it. If you were on 20 Oxys a day and hadn't eaten in a week, were bone thin, etc., that's a serious medical condition, and opiate addiction can be fatal. As far as being able to not take the pills, but not being able to handle the WD, that's true for all of us. I get that you don't feel well on Sub (which could be due in part to the rough physical shape you started in) but at least you have options now. You can taper off of Sub, and it's almost impossible to taper off of oxy. Even if you had toughed out the oxy WD's cold turkey, that's no guarantee that you would have been able to STAY off. You said you feel better now than you did at 24 or even 16mg, I'm willing to bet you'll feel even better at 8 mg. Many people find that side effects are more severe on higher doses.
Please keep posting and let us help support you as you taper lower. I can promise you when you are ready to go all the way off your WD will be much milder than from oxy. I can tell you that firsthand. I'm glad you posted, and no, you didnt say anything wrong. Just try to hang in there, it will get better.
Lilly


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 24, 2011 1:07 am 
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Now I hope I am not breaking any forum rules or coming off as argumentative. I always read these horror stories of people abusing pills or heroin then they go onto complain about suboxone. Who knows maybe it's not for everyone and maybe some individuals react different than others. I've heard women tell me they were prostituting for H and then they go on to complain about suboxone. I want to remind everyone that it is not a cure all and there are still dozens of things you should be doing to stay sober and happy. IMO suboxone is a controlled opiate that does not get you high nor do we build a tolerance so we can gradully reduce our dose over time until we are ready to jump off completely with very minimal withdrawal. It does however (like every medication) has it's negetive side effects. I luckely did not have too many bad side effects, but if is really that hard on you and you are unhappy with it, you might consider changing doses or finding another doctor that can use non-reacement recover. Good luck. I hope it all works out for you

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 24, 2011 1:08 am 
Dude it is great to come here and unload. It is good for you, this place is great for this. Now listen to what Lillyval has told you as well as many others here will.....


ANY opiate withdrawal sucks. Everyone here knows ALL opiates, including suboxone have withdrawal symptoms. Suboxone sucks less. Get at a level in which you don't have w/d symptoms for awhile, then consider a slow taper.

You said yourself you are doing better on 12 mg as far as side effects. Shoot for 8mg and then maybe 4mg and stabilize. Yeah, you were really sick back then and looking for an easy way. It didn't work like you wanted it to. You want to suffer for 2weeks, to cold turkey from oxy? Yikes, from my experience, that truly is hell...... You can't go back now or at least today. Many people taper successfully off of suboxone. You could always go off the subs and back on the oxy and cold turkey off of that too. It is up to you. Relapse and opiate addiction are fatal. Opiate withdrawals generally are not.

Good luck to you. Many here will advise and support you.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 24, 2011 1:57 am 
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Hi, I agree with what the others said and hope you feel better. The only negative side effect I have from Sub is the sweating. It drives me crazy, I got advice from another poster on this forum to take cinnamon pills to help with the sweat. I really didn't expect it to help but I was desperate so I got some and tried. To my surprise it helped quite significantly. I still have the sweats but I would say it at least cut it in half. Now all that being said I think it is easy to forget how bad it was when we were in active addiction and how hard it really is to stop oxy. 20 Oxys a day isn't something to laugh at. I know you say you can stop the pills but are scared of the withdrawls so was I which is why I couldnt quit Oxy or at least that's what I used to think. Since coming here and learning I realized there was no way I ever could have tapered of Oxy. If you could have stopped then why did you go on Sub in the first place and not just taper off the Oxy? I am going to guess that the answer is that you really couldn't stop. I mean no disrespect by this just trying to put things into perspective. I really hope you feel better and am sorry that Sub isn't working for you. Please keep us posted and get the cinnamon it will help.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 24, 2011 2:23 am 
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I'm with lillyval on this one. It sounds like, at least at the moment, you're definitely dwelling on the empty half of the glass. You're eating, no? You're having ..some.. good days, yes? Isn't this a massive improvement than when you were using, when every day was a struggle, and you were basically on the road to killing yourself?

You may be thinking that it would have been easier if you just withdrew off the Oxy's. But you gotta understand a couple of things. Firstly, the huge majority of people who withdraw off opiates the first time, and make it through the detox, go on to underestimate the amount of effort and conviction that's required to stay clean. This inevitably ends in relapse. Talk to any seasoned opiate user - one of the most widely heard comments is 'the physical withdrawals are the easy part!'

Secondly, suboxone is, in my opinion, the easiest opiate to successfully taper-off. Methadone is a bitch to taper off. Oxycontin / heroin / morphine etc is incredibly hard to stay disciplined with over a long taper. While tapering off suboxone isn't easy, it is imo the lesser of many other evils. With people who successfully do a long taper, it isn't unheard for them to have next to no withdrawal symptoms!

I'm no psychiatrist, but as I'm someone with an emotional disorder, it seems to me like your anti-deps aren't holding you?


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 24, 2011 8:04 am 
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I wholeheartedly agree with Lilly and the others. Really look at where you were then as compared to now. And I'll stress it again, we addicts find it damn near impossible to taper off our DOC, but what we can do is taper off suboxone. And let's be honest with ourselves here, suboxone isn't a cure all, and we were already addicted to opiates, right? And we did have withdrawals coming our way, didn't we? But now we are able to taper off sub and if done correctly, we can have little to no withdrawals to speak of.

There was one other thing I wanted to comment on. You said a couple of times in your first post that you were "messed up" on oxys or "high" or something to that effect when you first went to see your sub doc. So when you started suboxone, you were in withdrawals, weren't you? Or did you go into the office still high? I'm asking because it would make a huge difference in how you would respond when you took your first dose of sub.

And like the others said, you might want to taper down to a lower dose. That very often helps with side effects (although pins and needles in the face and prostate issues aren't normal side effects - I'd see a doctor about those).

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 28, 2011 10:04 am 
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Nothing wrong with venting a little bit, I guess. Addiction is a gut-wrenching condition to deal with and there is no easy way out of opiate dependence, it's really that simple.

It sounds to me, fishguy, that you're more angry with yourself than anyone else. Am I right?

Look, you were strung out on Oxy, a substance that could easily end your life at any moment had you continued down the path you described. To me, it sounds like you got on Suboxone just in time.

Now, look, it sucks to not feel good, no doubt about that, but I don't know that you can just lay the blame for that at the feet of these little orange pills just yet. Sometimes it takes a while to get stabilized on Suboxone, and given the fact that you are taking several other medications in addition to the suboxone, it's also possible that you are having some interactions between some of those and your sub that exacerbating the situation.

I would suggest taking to your doctor about it, working on finding a way to make this work for you. It could be a combination of factors including dosing.

As far as the fact that suboxone is an addictive opioid medication.....well.......it's not like that's a big deep dark evil secret. A 1 minute search of Google would have yielded this information to you. I'm not trying to be a jerk, I'm just sayin' It's common knowledge that suboxone and methadone for that matter are both highly addictive.

The advantage you have with suboxone, however, is you can manage a slow and steady decline in your dose and then jump off from a tiny dose, making the withdrawal much less acute than it would have been if you had just quit taking those oxys cold-turkey.

So, yeah, the glass is, indeed, half full.


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