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PostPosted: Wed Feb 02, 2011 8:18 pm 
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This is ironic. I NEVER watch Dr. Phil but I actually flipped through those low channels this afternoon and caught the tail end of an episode that talked about addiction and pregnancy. It was clear they were discussing opioid addiction during pregnancy, which was even more interesting to me. I hoped they would talk about Suboxone/Subutex. As some of you know I had a healthy baby on 3 mg Subutex in 2007. NO w/d whatsoever.

Okay, well I wanted more information so I pulled up the good Dr.'s website. This poor woman! She gets pregnant and is on Suboxone. Her doctor apparently tells her he will only prescribe her more Sub if she'll GET AND ABORTION. She doesn't want to do this!! She is forced to buy Sub on the street!! Then, she is being told that it's too late to discontinue Suboxone because it could cause her baby to DIE, yet she is given a huge 'reality check', which I would be more inclined to call a heartless guilt trip. Here's some of what is posted as a description of the show on the Dr. Phil site:

Taking the Suboxone while I’ve been pregnant has been really hard,” says Felicia, 28. “When I talked to the Dr. Phil staff, I had let them know that I hadn’t done crystal meth in over a year. For some reason, I didn’t tell them that I’ve been taking Suboxone for five years. At that time, my main focus was to get my brother off heroin and to get him help.”

Suboxone is a combination of drugs commonly used to manage addiction to more powerful opiates. Addicts can abuse Suboxone as well.

“My husband and I are worried,” Felicia says. “You don’t know if it’s going to cause birth defects or harm to the baby. When I first found out I was pregnant and went to see the doctor, the only way he would give me any more Suboxone was if I agreed to have an abortion. I can’t go home and tell my husband — it’s his first baby, and he’d be devastated. There is no other doctor that will prescribe Suboxone to me. I have to buy it from different people. The girl I usually buy it from, she charges a lot of money, so I asked my brother if he could call this guy he knows, and see if he has any to sell. We met the guy. Tony gave him the money. I did make sure that I could see Tony grab my Suboxone and get back in the car, so he didn’t have a chance to get anything else.


“It’s been really stressful. I’ve really been struggling and trying to get help with this addiction. It’s been really, really hard,” Felicia says tearfully. “And I don’t know how to get off of it. I don’t know what to do.”

“Are you aware that Child Protective Services can take this baby the minute it’s born?”

Felicia shakes her head no and begins to cry.

Dr. Phil tells her about Alexandra of the Dr. Phil Family, who had her baby taken from her when he was born addicted. “That’s the reality of where we are, so we have to deal with this too,” he says.

Dr. Phil wants Felicia and her family to know what it’s like for a baby born addicted. Pediatrician Dr. Jim Sears, co-host of the Emmy Award-winning show The Doctors, takes viewers inside a nursery with addicted babies."

This POOR WOMAN!! She is sobbing! Dr. Phil shows babies born addicted to Methamphetamine and talks about what all the babies born 'addicted' suffer, but what I find so reprehensible is that he doesn't differentiate whatsoever between using methamphetamine and taking Suboxone while in recovery for opiate addiction. He's making all sorts of assumptions. I didn't hear anywhere that this lady was 'abusing' her Sub. What exactly should this lady have done as she couldn't stop Sub and yet was a horrible woman for taking it? What choice is left? Oh yes, I remember now. She should have aborted her baby. My blood is just boiling. What a great opportunity to discuss this issue in a truthful context. This was a really inaccurate representation of this issue and I'm so irritated that I want to write the show. Maybe I should try watching the full episode first!!!

laddertipper

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 Post subject: omg I know!!!!
PostPosted: Thu Feb 03, 2011 12:40 pm 
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:roll: Nope your not the only one! For some reason I watched Dr Phil yesterday too! I usually don't watch daytime tv but when i saw it was a story of addiction I watched it from start to finish.You did not miss anything! I was so mad too!! I felt so bad for her! It seemed like Dr Phil had no idea what suboxone even was! Did u notice that?! When he came back from break after his lecture on her he finally said what suboxone was! "Suboxone is a combination of drugs commonly used to manage addiction to more powerful opiates. Addicts can abuse Suboxone as well " shut up dr phil!! you had no idea what it even was I bet! This girl felt bad enough my gawd! Ugh I was Livid! Then to show those poor babies :cry: If anything he should have told her to switch to subutex while pregnant and worry about coming off later! This girl was just trying to do what was right for her baby! He should have found her a good sub doc! Dr Phil needs to do his homework! :evil: !!!! I feel like writting the show myself! There are so many people who now prob think suboxone is some evil drug when it can actually save lives! Ugh, I really hope Dr Phil catches some greif for this BS!


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 03, 2011 12:54 pm 
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First off, I have to say how happy I am that your baby was born with no complications!! That is GREAT for people to know!!

Second, suboxone is such a misunderstood medicine. People are naturally going to be afraid of it due to the people who are being treated with it......ADDICTS. We addicts scare the hell out of the general population, they think we are all evil and that we are going to come and 'get' them. It's not right for the general population to think of us this way, but it is WAY wrong for a Dr. to portray us and suboxone in this light, just to try to get a bump in his ratings!

Third, I think Dr. Phil is a Dork! Yes, Dork with a capital D!!

I feel so sorry for that poor lady and what Dr. Dork put her through.


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 Post subject: Dr. Phil is an Ass
PostPosted: Thu Feb 03, 2011 2:29 pm 
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Yes, that's Ass with a capital A. As romeo said, it's just about sensationalizing whatever situation in order to get the highest ratings. Although from what little I've seen of him (don't think I've ever been able to watch one of his shows all the way through, ever) he seems like he's on an ugly power trip too--thinks he's so much better than other people. Sure, he's "smart" enough to capitalize on the fact that there are a lot of desperate under-educated people out there and also on how easy it is to draw in viewers by appealing to their lower sensibilities. From what I've seen of Dr. Phil he's mostly a selfish bully and I don't think I've ever seen him show what looked like real compassion or empathy. Of course, I cannot stand to watch his show for more than a couple of minutes, maximum, before I'll switch the channel or just turn off the tv in disgust. He seems to think he can reduce complicated issues down to a matter of black and white. Well, he's an extremely judgmental person as far as I can tell and he doesn't seem to go into any of the issues brought up on his show in any real depth NOR have I ever seen him show anything close to an attitude of scientific objectivity. but then, I can't stand to watch his show for more than a couple of minutes at a time, so...I admit I am not any kind of expert on Dr. Phil.

But regarding suboxone...it's a shame that he can't tell the truth about suboxone if he's going to talk about it on his show. For me, frankly, the issue of pregnancy just isn't of much interest to me on a personal level, but it's pretty ugly to hear about that pregnant woman getting false (or incomplete) info regarding sub and her pregnancy. You know, I had never heard of suboxone before my doctor suggested it. I wish I had heard of it and knew something about it, maybe that would have helped me to get stable on it sooner. It's really too bad that sub is so misunderstood. I believe that is a complicated medication, but among other things, it's great that there is finally an alternative medication to methadone for opiate addicts.

Well, I imagine (and hope) that Dr. Phil gets some letters in response to that show, that tell him he ought to do a show about how suboxone really works and how many people it helps. But...personally I don't think he's really most interested in telling the truth and providing people with the real information that they need to help themselves--as far as I can tell he's only interested in sensationalizing whatever and whoever he can in order to draw in viewers and to make himself feel powerful.

Btw, this is what I read on wikipedia about Dr. Phil:
"He maintained his license current and in good standing until he elected to retire it 15 years later in 2006.[18] Appearing on the Today Show in January 2008, McGraw said that he has made it "very clear" that his current work does not involve the practice of psychology. He also said that he had "retired from psychology".[19] According to the Today Show, the California Board of Psychology determined in 2002 that he did not require a license because his show involves "entertainment" rather than psychology."

Ok, that does make perfect sense. He admits that his work is simply part of the entertainment industry, so it is very likely that the main, if not sole, purpose, is drawing in audience (in order to attract the advertisers who pay for his show, of course). I just wish he wouldn't insist on using the title "Dr." which is sure to mislead a lot of people. It certainly implies that he is practicing psychology, or has the legal right to practice psychology, which he does NOT because his license has been lapsed for many years now. In my opinion Dear Abby gave out more open minded, more honest, more compassionate, and more credible advice to people than Dr. Phil does. And Dr. Phil never even was a doctor, just a psychologist. Although, all I really know about his is that he seems like a jerk who doesnt' care about anyone but himself. But then, i admit, i don't watch his show and never have, because I get disgusted after a very short time. I wish Oprah had never met him and I don't understand why she promoted him so much, other than, well, I have the impression that Oprah is a compassionate person, but of course she's a successful entertainer too, so I guess she recognized how Phil McGraw's ugly style of sensationalizing while posing as a knowledgeable expert in psychology would appeal to a lot of people, draw in viewers, and support another ugly low-class tv show. In my opinion his show is no better than the worst of it's kind.

I have no respect for him, I dont' think he helps anyone or wants to help anyone, he's just out to make money. And doesnt' he have enough of that yet?

I also hope he gets some letters about that misinforming show on suboxone.


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 Post subject: Okay, thanks guys
PostPosted: Thu Feb 03, 2011 3:49 pm 
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Thank you for letting me know I'm not crazy for being so PISSED OFF!! I think anyone on this forum who saw what he did to this woman, who is sitting there with her big pregnant belly, in tears of shame and fear, would be furious too. She was getting her meds from a doctor and he ditched her!!! Everyone turned their backs on her and then Dr. friggin' Phil decides to give her a public reaming!! And as she sits there and sobs, he shows pics of babies suffering from withdrawal from Methamphetamine and just keeps pounding this woman. "Your baby will be addicted. Your baby will be sick. Your baby will suffer. Your baby could be taken away from you because of this." Really? Is that true, Dr. Phil? I know babies can be taken for people using Heroin and other street drugs, but can a baby be snatched from its mother because the mom is taking Suboxone to stay OFF the street drugs? And he brought up the other woman whose baby was taken, but her baby wasn't taken because she was on Sub. He just sees no difference between Sub and street drugs.

The worst part is that so many people watch his show, and think of all the women who are on Sub as a part of their recovery. What if some of them (perhaps accidentally) get pregnant (that happened to me!) and imagine if their families saw this show and imagine what these women will have to put up with!!! Can you imagine that you are cruising along and have gotten off Oxy or whatever and are living a responsible life and are very proud of yourself and then your birth control fails, you get pregnant and then you are faced with how to handle it without causing a miscarriage and people around you are making you feel like a BAD PERSON because all they know about Sub and pregnancy is what they saw on Dr. Phil? This man owes that lady an apology. Yes, he sent her to 'rehab' at the end of the show, but I wasn't clear on that either. Was she going to rehab for SUBOXONE? That's how he made it sound. She was clean off her other drugs. He did not differentiate between Suboxone and Methamphetamine as far as one being a recovery drug and the other being an illegal street drug. And he did all this to this lady in front of the whole country. He was merciless. He was totally out of line. I was shocked. In fact, I thought the emotional beating he was inflicting on this woman was possibly very dangerous for her pregnancy. I wanted to punch the man in his mustache. He needs to be taken down a few notches. What was she supposed to leave the show with? "I am a shithead for taking Suboxone?" Boy, I wonder how feeling guilt about Suboxone on top of her using history will help her succeed in her recovery?

I wonder what Dr. Phil's general stance on Suboxone is, but he is responsible for what he put on his show. Just because some people CAN abuse Sub, doesn't mean this woman WAS. Biiiiiigggggg assumption. He really painted Suboxone in a very bad light, and you are right about the 'Dr.' part in front of his name being misleading. It makes people more likely to accept what he says as truth. I AM writing a letter to the show. They need to correct this. I would also like to write to that woman. I wonder if it's possible!? My heart breaks for her.

laddertipper

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 03, 2011 4:06 pm 
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Dr. Phil is a shameless hack, who has no business calling himself "Dr". He capitalizes on others misfortune. Instead of using his fame to shed light in a lifesaving drug, he lumps Sub in with street drugs thereby adding to the stigma. Im not. Surprised since in his addicted twins episode, dupe was waved in front of withdrawing addicts, and then withheld. it's sick. And I feel horrible for that poor expectant mom.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 03, 2011 4:14 pm 
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Dr. Phil is a shameless hack, who has no business calling himself "Dr". He capitalizes on others misfortune. Instead of using his fame to shed light in a lifesaving drug, he lumps Sub in with street drugs thereby adding to the stigma. Im not. Surprised since in his addicted twins episode, dupe was waved in front of withdrawing addicts, and then withheld. it's sick. And I feel horrible for that poor expectant mom.


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 Post subject: Dr. Phil
PostPosted: Thu Feb 03, 2011 7:54 pm 
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I had no clue he had this extreme attitude towards Sub. Lilyval, did you say that he waved 'bupe' in front on people in w/d? Seriously?! I'm really shocked. What a prick! If I had been treated that way when I was pregnant, I am not kidding when I say that I may have hated myself so much that I would have just done myself in. He was really brutal on that woman. When he offered to send her to rehab, my first thought was "good, at least she won't be able to kill herself because she'll be in rehab." When you're pregnant your emotions are crazy enough and not having the option of stopping (too hard on the baby) basically puts you in a box with no options other than switching to Subutex and slowly tapering the dose as best you can. None of that was even discussed. I hope no pregnant women out there see that episode and jump off their Suboxone, thereby risking a miscarriage. It scares me to think that if I had seen that when I was pregnant with my littlest one, I may have done just that. Yikes.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 03, 2011 9:44 pm 
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Dr.phil has always been out of touch with reality. What a sad way act and do a talk show. Dr phil phsssshh :roll:

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 Post subject: Yeah, I do not get it
PostPosted: Thu Feb 03, 2011 10:19 pm 
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I think the guy comes across as super arrogant. That's unfortunate because I don't think he's necessarily stupid. He's just let it go to his head and now he seems to have a God complex. Didn't Oprah 'create' him? I guess we can all thank her.

laddertipper

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 05, 2011 10:38 pm 
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Pregnant woman in recovery have so much to deal with already!!! There are so many judgmental people out there to begin with! Then to have Dr. Full on national day-time t.v. spouting his brand of garbage on top of it! It's almost enough to make you SCREAM!!!

All I can say is I feel so bad for this lady on the show. She has absolutley no clue and she turns to Dr. Phil for help and gets a massive guilt trip, not to mention, threats of losing her baby to CPS!!!

It's bad enough, at nine months pregnant, the dirty looks I get at the pharmacy when I go to fill my Subutex once a month...so far that has been the worst of it for me. I cannot imagine being told to abort my baby, or threatened by CPS. It would put any woman over the edge.

Im going to write the show, for the simple fact that this kind of mis-information is extremely irresponsible and damaging to every woman on Suboxone and in recovery!

I can only imagine the conversation I am going to have once my mother-in-law hears about this episode of Dr.Phil!!! I will never hear the end of it! Try telling her the baby's on the show were actually meth addicted--she won't be hearing any of it.
Thanks Dr. Phil!


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 07, 2011 1:36 pm 
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Not one person has addressed that fact that there is an unborn child being brought into this world. Maybe Dr. Phil should have pointed that out a little better. It is a selfish-act to get pregnant when you are ingesting drugs of any type. What you do to your body will effect the fetus in someway, even bad nutrition. And some people need to be hit over the head before they get it. Did Dr Phil sensationalize it, yes, but if it prevents one child from having to endure withdrawal it was worth it.

I am the Grandmother of a child born to a Suboxone user. The mother abused methamphetamine prior to getting on Suboxone, so I was happy that she was getting her life together. Then she got pregnant. She did not tell her doctor she was using the drug, nor did she tell the pediatrician. After the baby was born it's whole body would shake and quiver uncontrollably. She also nursed the baby, I asked repeatedly if it was safe, which according to information I have read, could be if the dosage is minimal. The child, now nearly two, displays some behavior problems. I don't know if this is from the Suboxone or environmental.

I think that all precautions should be taken to prevent pregnancy if you are on any type of drug. We do not know the long term effects of these drugs on the children born to users. Kids need the best chance in life that we can possibly give them. Take care of them by taking good care of yourself and your body.


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 Post subject: Yikes...
PostPosted: Mon Feb 07, 2011 5:01 pm 
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Grandma wrote:
Not one person has addressed that fact that there is an unborn child being brought into this world. Maybe Dr. Phil should have pointed that out a little better. It is a selfish-act to get pregnant when you are ingesting drugs of any type. What you do to your body will effect the fetus in someway, even bad nutrition. And some people need to be hit over the head before they get it. Did Dr Phil sensationalize it, yes, but if it prevents one child from having to endure withdrawal it was worth it.

I am the Grandmother of a child born to a Suboxone user. The mother abused methamphetamine prior to getting on Suboxone, so I was happy that she was getting her life together. Then she got pregnant. She did not tell her doctor she was using the drug, nor did she tell the pediatrician. After the baby was born it's whole body would shake and quiver uncontrollably. She also nursed the baby, I asked repeatedly if it was safe, which according to information I have read, could be if the dosage is minimal. The child, now nearly two, displays some behavior problems. I don't know if this is from the Suboxone or environmental.

I think that all precautions should be taken to prevent pregnancy if you are on any type of drug. We do not know the long term effects of these drugs on the children born to users. Kids need the best chance in life that we can possibly give them. Take care of them by taking good care of yourself and your body.


I respect that you have a lot of emotion behind you post, so I'm going to take that personally. However, I have to respond, as that was a pretty insensitive post and loaded with insinuations, as well as errors. First of all, many doctors, mine included, do not warn their female patients about the dangers of getting pregnant while on Suboxone. I asked my first doctor about what would happen if I DID get pregnant, and I was reassured that it was not a big problem because it was so easy to discontinue Suboxone that I would just wean to 2 mg and then stop and there would be no harm to my theoretical baby; he had many patients, supposedly who got pregnant and he did just this with them and their babies were fine. I WAS using birth control. It had always worked for me. It FAILED. I'm not the first one that has happened to and I was pretty shocked at being pregnant. We weren't going to have anymore kids. My entire soul, the soul in every cell of my body in fact, was TERRIFIED about one thing and one thing only: my baby's welfare. I learned from my doctor at that time, a doctor I'd only been seeing a brief period, that Suboxone was not in fact safe while pregnant and that I could cause my baby withdrawal. Do you think my heart did not break to hear that? At the same time, I was told NOT to discontinue my Suboxone until he did more research and figured out what to do. I was so scared that I did discontinue it anyway, which freaked my body out, and I was ordered to resume it and to taper slowly. Discontinuing abruptly can KILL YOUR BABY. Do you see the problem here? I loved my baby too much to risk killing her.

Your daughter or daughter-in-law should have told her doctor, bottom line. She was probably scared of the backlash and judgment that may come at her by doing so, and obviously she had good reason to fear that, but she still absolutely should have told the doctor. The truth is that if we condemn people in the way you are doing, they will not come forward. And then they will not get the direction and support they need to maximize the chances of their babies being healthy. It is, in fact, ALL about the babies. However, if you beat up on the mother, you are not helping the baby, because the baby's health is directly dependent on the mother's. And I'd like to ask you if you place the same amount of blame on the father of your grandchild, as it takes two to make a baby, and obviously you all knew she was taking Suboxone. He is responsible as well. Was HE using protection? I'm sure it's easy for you to lay all the blame at the mother's feet, but just because it's easy does not mean it's intelligent or accurate. In saying 'some people, need to be hit over the head to understand this, I hope you are including the co-creator of your grandchild.

My baby was born with no NAS. Thank God. I'm just glad my family was supportive enough of me that I felt loved and never felt like I was in it alone. There's no easy choice when you get pregnant on Suboxone, so you just have to do what is BEST and the most responsible thing. You mentioned breastfeeding and not knowing if that was safe and then you mentioned that there were some behavioral problems. I don't know if you are linking these things or not. There was a study done recently that showed it IS safe to breastfeed while on Suboxone. I did not breastfeed because this study wasn't out yet, and I was being as diligent as I possibly could. Has your grandchild been evaluated for any sort of problems or are you just drawing conclusions from your own observations. And if there has been some evaluation done, did the doctor say it was likely a result of the Suboxone? I do think your grandchild's mother made some big mistakes by not getting the proper guidance, but I am worried that for the rest of this child's life, any difficulties he/she has will automatically lead you to conclude that it's because of her taking Suboxone, and if you have no reasons to believe that, then it's totally unfair. That's what I would call 'hocus pocus'.

I don't even know what your point was, anyway. Are you saying that women on Suboxone don't eat properly while pregnant? That's just simply ridiculous. The only part I agree with you on is that every precaution should be taken to avoid pregnancy while on Sub. Unfortunately, like I said, many of us are not educated on the dangers or are altogether mislead.

My "Suboxone" baby is now three and is the picture of good health. In fact, my Suboxone pregnancy was the easiest and healthiest of my pregnancies and the only one that made it to term. Does that mean Suboxone did that? No. That's also hocus posus. My youngest one, my Sub baby, has also been my healthiest child thus far (no asthma or ear infections, etc.). Is that because of Suboxone? No. Hocus Pocus, again! My kids are all way ahead of where they should be for their ages, and that's mainly because I'm am an absolutely fantastic mother. AND I am also on Suboxone and had a baby on Subutex. Please try to be a little more sensitive. It's easy to point fingers when you are not in the situation yourself.

laddertipper

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 07, 2011 5:31 pm 
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Grandma,

I don't think you understand addiction very well, if at all. There is a thread on this website called "What is Addiction", it's under the section "Why the Anger". This thread I'm referring to is by no means all encompassing, but there are some excellent links within the thread that would help you understand addiction better.

Maybe, if you understood addiction better you would understand it is not a 'simple' choice that people make to "abuse" drugs while pregnant. There is MUCH, MUCH more to the story. Addiction affects the brain in such a way as to lower rational thinking causing us addicts to bad things.

Now, as far as the Suboxone part of this goes.....Suboxone is a medicine we opiate adicts use to clean up our act. It is an opiate, yes. But it is NOT a normal opiate. It's called a partial agonist. Can a partial agonist harm the fetus, possibly, but I know a full agonist is going to do a lot more harm than a partial agonist such as Suboxone. An addict with a full agonist opiate is going to abuse that drug a LOT more than an addict using a partial agonist. Guaranteed!

Why don't they just quit using all drugs all together then is probably your next question. ADDICTION, that's why! If quitting all drugs all together were that easy, do you think there would be any addicts in the world? Addiction is a disease, whether you believe it or not. Addiction is a disease, whether you understand it or not. Ignorance of addiction helps no one.


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 Post subject: Yeah and one more thing
PostPosted: Mon Feb 07, 2011 6:53 pm 
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I wanted to add one thing. I don't think anyone here would disagree on the importance of the baby's welfare. That's part of what infuriated me about Dr. Phil's show. He made sure to ask the woman if she knew her baby could be immediately taken by Child Protective Services for being born addicted to Sub. (He also concluded that the baby WOULD be born with NAS, and unless he has very reliable psychic abilities, there's no way for him to know that.) As a woman watching that show, specifically a pregnant woman on Suboxone watching that show, would that statement encourage you to go inform your OBGYN that you were taking Suboxone? There's a chance you baby will be born with NAS and a chance they won't be born with NAS. The fear of having a child taken is so horrible that it's not hard to imagine that a woman may weigh the risks and decide to not tell her doctor about her Sub and hope and pray her baby isn't born with NAS. I think it's imperative that we not scare people into silence. That is NOT the best thing for the baby.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 08, 2011 1:32 am 
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Grandma wrote:
Not one person has addressed that fact that there is an unborn child being brought into this world. Maybe Dr. Phil should have pointed that out a little better. It is a selfish-act to get pregnant when you are ingesting drugs of any type. What you do to your body will effect the fetus in someway, even bad nutrition. And some people need to be hit over the head before they get it. Did Dr Phil sensationalize it, yes, but if it prevents one child from having to endure withdrawal it was worth it.

I am the Grandmother of a child born to a Suboxone user. The mother abused methamphetamine prior to getting on Suboxone, so I was happy that she was getting her life together. Then she got pregnant. She did not tell her doctor she was using the drug, nor did she tell the pediatrician. After the baby was born it's whole body would shake and quiver uncontrollably. She also nursed the baby, I asked repeatedly if it was safe, which according to information I have read, could be if the dosage is minimal. The child, now nearly two, displays some behavior problems. I don't know if this is from the Suboxone or environmental.

I think that all precautions should be taken to prevent pregnancy if you are on any type of drug. We do not know the long term effects of these drugs on the children born to users. Kids need the best chance in life that we can possibly give them. Take care of them by taking good care of yourself and your body.


Some things about this story don't seem right to me. Why was the mother on Suboxone if she was a methamphetamine addict? Are we using Suboxone to treat meth addiction now?

If the baby was shaking and quivering uncontrollably why didn't the NICU doctors medicate it? Isn't that standard procedure if the baby's NAS is that bad?


Also, what nearly-two-year-old that DOESN'T have some behavior problems? Isn't that the nature of being almost two?

As for Dr. Phil's asshole behavior being "worth it" if he "saves one child from going through withdrawal", I say HOOEY.

I am a mother. My daughter was born long before I got addicted to opiates, so I didn't have to make this decision with her. And now I am done with my Suboxone treatment. That said, if I DID get pregnant again and if I came to a point where I had to make a choice between say, going back on Suboxone OR being driven completely crazy by drug-cravings and depression or any other symptom of addiction...I would go back on Sub in a heartbeat.

The quality of the mother's life is important too. I would also take antidepressants during a pregnancy - something that I let judgemental people guilt-trip me out of doing during my pregnancy, resulting in 10 months of complete hell for me. If taking Suboxone or methadone or other psych meds during prenancy is what a mother needs to have a good quality of life and to be able to function and take care of herself, then that is FINE.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 08, 2011 11:51 am 
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Maybe the mom was a poly-substance abuser who was given Sub for opiate addiction. The Sub would not have prevented meth use. Maybe the mom abused meth during the pregnancy. "uncontrollable shaking" sounds more like meth withdrawal to me. Aside from that, the medical literature is clear, an unborn baby is much safer when the mother is treated with buprenorphine rather than exposed to street drugs. No matter how much a mom wants what's best for the baby, she can't just flip a switch and not be an addict anymore. Being treated under a doctors care with Sub is a much better alternative to continuing to use OR suffering withdrawal while pregnant. I hope over time more Grandmas come to understand this.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 08, 2011 12:44 pm 
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Amen DOAQ and Lillyval.

Something about this story seems off to me. Maybe I'M way off, but the original poster decides to onto a Suboxone support site and post this as her very first contribution? I don't really get that. And then she flees and doesn't return! There is something else going on.

If she is reading this, by chance, I would BEG her to please, please refer her grandchild's mother here. Being a mom doesn't end at delivery! This woman needs support and this is the place to get it. Grandma, the happier and more stable this mother is will directly impact the quality of her child's life. There's a huge amount of collective knowledge and experience on here. Pass this site on to her and you are doing something good for your grandchild.

Ugh, after being in this situation myself, I just FEEL so much for any mom trying to navigate through it. No easy answers. However, I just read yet another article last night and Sub treatment during pregnancy (specifically Subutex) is ABSOLUTELY the most responsible option. Anyone who had a baby on Sub has a responsibility to report the results. It's easy and doesn't take long. This is such an important thing. Moms-to-be on Oxy, Heroin, etc. now have an option to substantially increase the chances of delivering a healthy baby with no NAS. It doesn't always work out that way, but the chances are in the baby's favor AND the mother's favor. If we choose to have no compassion for people and instead take the 'hit them over the head with a stick' route, we will intimidate people into silence and they will not get the help they need and they will deliver SICK babies, and that is a TRAGEDY!!!! :(

laddertipper

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 08, 2011 9:53 pm 
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Im so glad you posted that ladder. It seemed odd to me as well that a newcomer would come to this site and comment under a thread about the Dr. Phil show. "IF" this "GRANDMA" truly does have a loved one on the sub, she should definitely refer her to our forum for support. Grandma also needs to take some time and watch Dr. J's videos to try to become a little more informed about Suboxone/Subutex before coming to a Suboxone support site and putting down those of us whom have chosen to include this medication to help us through our recovery.
Unfortunately, the world isn't perfect and we can't just wave a magic wand and make a pregnant addict become unaddicted. If a pregnant woman is addicted to opiates,(or anything else for that matter) she needs to be completely honest w/her doctors so that precautions can be taken to protect her and her unborn child. I would think that anyone would agree that a pregnant addict in remission w/the help of Sub is favorable over active addiction, or the DEATH of a baby because of the mislead discontinuation of Sub. Finally, who's to say that suboxone is to blame for this supposed baby's NAS? Without an ACCURATE history of what this women was taking before and during her pregnancy, it seems unfair to lay all the blame on Sub use.


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Wow you guys. Let me first say that I think you are all AMAZING and STRONG women and I have so much loved reading your posts! I haven't been on the site in a while but it is so refreshing to see that so many of us out there are winning the battle over addiction with proper meds, support, etc., and it is exciting to know that sub has had little or no effect on so many babies born. You guys are my heros! I'm due any day now and definitely nervous about what will happen at the hospital with NAS vs no NAS and I will absolutely report the findings and hopefully help another preg woman out there who is just looking to hear she's not a horrible mother. Laddertripper -- your posts have been amazing also and I love that you are so helpful to folks in their times of need (including me many months ago!) and that you are so passionate about what you speak. It is inspiring, so thanks for staying on top of this site, and I promise to try and do the same!!

Now, about Dr. Phil -- no I hadn't seen the episode but when I read your post, naturally, I was appalled. So I decided to Google "dr phil suboxone" and I found some verrry interesting info I thought you guys might also find interesting (by the way, also found this post which is funny... may be how Grandma was referred to this site). Apparently this is not the first time Dr. Phil has shed light on Suboxone, as he has been talking about it off and on for quite a few years, but he has talked about it in a positive rather than negative light, so I am completely confused as to why the switch on this poor pregnant woman. Perhaps he simply felt as though because she was "scoring" suboxone in the street she was at risk for other types of relapse? Or perhaps he believed she was also on something else? Or just the mere fact that she's not being prescribed suboxone by a doctor makes her evil? I'm not sure but I am also extremely freaked out and I loathe the idea of telling my mother that I too am still on sub while pregnant because she probably saw the episode herself. That's why I pray pray PRAY for no NAS so that I don't have to explain myself to her or those that might otherwise think I'm just some junkie. I think it may be a long time before people look at Sub the same way they'd look at Paxil (or even stronger, anti-psych meds) -- as a necessary medication that helps maintain stability (espec when combined with other types of treatment and support) -- and people like "Grandma" and even my mother will choose to see it as methadone no matter how many times you tell them how different it is. I also think the issue with the Grandmas out there -- because I do want to validate her concerns as they are quite real and very common -- is that they don't really understand addiction, and to me the only way they ever will is if they also join an NA or support group and become part of the solution rather than part of the problem. Too many parents of addicts believe their children are doing this on purpose to hurt them, or they should just be able to stop, etc., and it takes a decent amount of education to understand how false this really is (think about it, I know I personally thought I was morally wrong and a horrible person prior to my addiction education, and understanding the scientific and phsysiological aspects of addiction... man was it reassuring to find out that I wasn't this horrible person I thought I was!).

But back to Dr. Phil, if you want to check it out take a look at info on previous shows where he seems to be condoning the use of suboxone? I'd love to hear your thoughts. Not sure why he's so all over the place but I can tell you this: you guys are right, had I seen the episode I'd have prob considered stopping cold turkey (something my former doctor once forced me to do when he found out I was preg) so as not to "kill" my baby even more, bad advice given by a fake doctor? Are you kidding me? Not even an MD, just formerly a psychologist but not anymore? Please. Not even cool.

Just a sidenote: my former sbx dr has you sign a waiver when you first come in that says you won't get pregnant. They are so uber concerned about liability, but were real quick to just pull me off of it when I breached my contract. How lame is that. I'm still kind of bitter about it all. Because the manufacturer of sbx hasn't yet publicly condoned sbx for pregnant women, drs don't want the lawsuit. I think the waiver even said if they take me off sbx that I can't sue if anything happens to the baby, but I don't really remember because it said all kinds of things and was on my very first visit there.

Anyway thanks again you guys... you rock!! Keep staying so strong and amazing and I can't wait to read more! :)


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