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PostPosted: Tue Jul 10, 2012 9:40 am 
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I want to start this by saying that this is just my opinion and nothing more. But it is something that has been driving me crazy for a while now.

I don't understand how people can use suboxone/subutex, just to avoid withdrawals. I am talking about the people that use it simply because they've run out of pills. Or whatever their drug of choice was. This medication has been a huge asset to me in my recovery. I get so annoyed when I read a post about someone who is looking for advice, serious advice on how to taper, or jump, or whatever, and someone comes along who has only taken it for a week and tries to tell them what it's gonna be like. How do they even know? I'm not talking about people who only use it for a week and then stay clean, or are seriously trying to stay clean. I'm talking about the people who use it because they are too chicken shit to endure the withdrawals that they brought on themselves.

I have gone thru withdrawal more times than i can even count in my active addiction. And I deserved it every single time. Anyone who uses this wonderful medication to avoid a little pain and suffering, just until they can get more pills, doesn't deserve it. They should suffer.

There are so many addicts out there who can't afford this form of treatment, and would give there right arm to be able to use it in the way that it was intended to be used. I have zero sympathy for the ones who use it as a means of escaping the inevitable. I know that this is addictive behavior, and that they have no remorse whatsoever. And I know that I should just try to accept that. I just needed to get this out. It really does annoy me. And I don't have an ounce of sympathy for them.

I think what bothers me the most about it, is when they come on here and try to give advice to people who take this treatment seriously. I don't give advice to anyone if I don't know anything about it. And these people shouldn't be giving anyone advice either.....

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 10, 2012 5:35 pm 
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I personally don't know anyone who does this...but I should also point out that when I quit doing pills, I quit dealing with ANYONE who did/still does. But, just like any other pill, it's going to be abused and misused..people are just going to do that. I'm actually kinda glad that I don't know anyone who does pills now, because I get fighting mad when I think back to all the stupid things I did while I was on them..and how I screwed up my life/marriage and was bringing down everyone around me...

I don't think it's best to be even remotely close to people who still use, especially if you know them on the level to know that they use Suboxone when they are out of pills...if you have some friends that do this, then I would reconsider who's a friend and who isn't...but I hope that you're just saying this because you knew bout it before you cleaned up. There's nothing more dangerous to someone who's flying right than to have temptation right there in your face....and I don't want anyone near me (and especially my children) who's taking pills for a buzz. This is why they haven't seen their grandmother (my mom) in 5 years or so...and the last time my kids DID see their grandmother, she was quickly told to leave and escorted from the hotel room by ME...because she had blazed some weed before she came over, and was nodding off because of her xanax abuse.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 10, 2012 5:59 pm 
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I didn't even know other people that did pills even when i was doing pills. I tended to isolate, and I never bought them off of the street. I did doctor shop, but they always came from a pharmacy. In my original post I stated that these were posts, several of them that I read on this forum and others. My act has been cleaned up for quite some time. Fortunately I didn't have to go thru the process of weeding out the friends who still used pills. None of my present day friends use, or drink. I like it that way. I have very few friends, but he few I have would do anything fo me. And i would do anything for them. Sorry if I didn't make myself clear in the first post. I thought I said that it was in other threads that I read....

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 10, 2012 9:02 pm 
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hey Kelley, i hear ya. then some want advice as to when they can start their drug of choice again cuz they just got a refill! crazy.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2012 5:07 am 
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For me, getting pissed off at people like this is like getting pissed off at a person for being sick. They're in active addiction, just like I was. It's just they're not at a point yet where they're ready to recover. Maybe one day they will be prepared to give up.

Pretty much everyone here has been abusing opioid painkillers at some point. While we were doing it there were a lot of people taking their pain pills legitimately as prescribed. Is it justified for them to get pissed off at us for falling into addiction and abusing painkillers, and giving painkillers and anyone who takes them a bad reputation?

I just find it strange how the moment some people get into recovery, they turn into the same kinda people that resented and alienated us for our behavior while we were sick and abusing opioids ourselves?

And in the eyes of many uninformed people, we (us people taking Sub legitimately) are still in addiction. We've just switched drugs.

It's also not that black and white. Where do we draw the line with who to resent and who to support? What about people who are on Sub but still struggle with cravings from time to time and end up using? Their use pattern may not be so different to those who are using Sub to get them by between using, even if they are trying hard at their recovery.

Just my 2c


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2012 7:33 am 
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All i was saying is that theses people shouldnt be giving advice.... Leave it to you and Jonathan to twist my words....I see you both doing that quite a bit on here.... it isnt a competition about how many people you can make feel like assholes. And I never said I was alienating anyone. I just said they shouldn't be giving advice to other people.... Im sorry, I mistakenly took this as a place where I could vent my thoughts and feelings...free of judgement and other people making me feel like an asshole. I don't do this to other people, so I thought I wold get the same in return. My bad...

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2012 8:13 am 
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Goinstrong -

Your post was very clear to me that you did not know anyone or hang out with people of whom you're speaking. You were talking about people who use sub that way and then give advice about it. People that you READ ABOUT IN POSTS on here and other forums. That was very clear. I'm sorry you felt attacked or made to feel like an asshole or just treated badly by the posters here. I do apologize to you on behalf of the forum, for whatever that's worth.

I do hope you'll stick around, because everyone here IS allowed to voice their opinion without being made to feel stupid for doing so.

I understand how you feel and I, too, get uncomfortable with it. Please try not to let this get to you and please don't leave the forum, although I do respect whatever decision you make. Your feelings are legitimate and you have the right to them and no one has the right to belittle them, no matter how much they disagree, your feelings are just as valid as theirs.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2012 9:10 am 
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Thaks so much Hatmaker, for what you said. It really means a lot to me to know that not all of the moderators are flat out selfish and confrontational. It really reflects poorly on the rest of them when one bad apple spoils the bunch!

Anyway, I won't be going anywhere, I like this forum too much to let a screen name ruin it for me. That's all they are to me anyway. It's not like they know me personally, and know how giving and caring I am. I would help anyone, anytime, regardless of what they do. But by no means do I have to LIKE what they are doing. The responses I got from two of the posters just made me look bad. They were trying to make it look like I was attacking people who have a relapse, or slip up in their recovery. That just isn't true. I have had relapses before. But that doesn't mean that I, or anyone else who relapses, isn't serious about their recovery. I was only talking about the people who have no desire to clean up. And take sub to get thru until they can get more pills. Thats all. And this whole thread just got twisted by the posters. With the exception of pugmommy. They made a good point about them asking for advice on how long they have to wait before they can get high again. Those are the people I'm referring to. I feel so stupid now. I feel like everyone is looking at me like this hateful monster. And I am so the opposite of that. I don't even know how it could have gotten misconstrued so badly. I guess in the future I'll be more careful about being so open. I really wasn't expecting to get the negativity I did.

Thank you again hatmaker and pugmommy for actually taking the time to not only read my post, but to actually understand what you were reading. It's people like you all that will keep me hanging around!

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2012 10:11 pm 
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I'm sorry you mistook this for a place where everyone will agree with everything you say and tell you whatever you want to hear.

Are you saying that I'm not allowed to speak my mind and air any disagreement with anything you say?

What's with all the anger?

There were times I used methadone and Suboxone while I was in addiction. Is it fair to say you were attacking me in your opening post?


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2012 6:28 am 
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tearj3rker wrote:
I'm sorry you mistook this for a place where everyone will agree with everything you say and tell you whatever you want to hear.

Are you saying that I'm not allowed to speak my mind and air any disagreement with anything you say?

What's with all the anger?

There were times I used methadone and Suboxone while I was in addiction. Is it fair to say you were attacking me in your opening post?


TJ, don't feel bad...because apparently nobody read my post either and missed this part:

Quote:
.if you have some friends that do this, then I would reconsider who's a friend and who isn't...but I hope that you're just saying this because you knew bout it before you cleaned up.


If that wasn't the case, and this person knew absolutely no one else who did pills when they were an active addict, then there was no reason to come back at me with hostility.

I just assumed that while in active addiction, an addict WOULD know someone else who was an addict...

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2012 7:52 am 
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Tearjerk, I am not angry at all, quite the contrary. I can't seem to get in a bad mood these days. I wasn't attacking anyone, it isn't my style. And to answer your question, IF IF you were abusing sub/methadone during your addicton and giving people advice on how to taper or jump, then yes, that would have annoyed me. But attack you???? Never.

Jonathan, I apologize for missing the part about you saying "if I had friends that do this". That's my bad. I actually never knew anyone that did this until I started reading posts on this forum and other forums where people are doing it. So, I guess it just annoyed me, but thats all.

I wasn't trying to cause an uproar or anything like that. My friends and family all know me very well, and any one of them would tell you that I don't like confrontation. Just because I don't like what people are doing with sub (giving advice when they have no knowledge) doesn't mean that I am attacking them or judging them. It's just annoying. No more. No less.

There are many people who have opinions that I don't agree with, and many that don't agree with mine. But I don't feel the need to challenge them on that. I won't ask them a ton of questions and make them justify themseves for having their opinion. So I am going to respectfully bow out of this conversation. I sincerely wish you both the best. Have a great day!

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2012 9:19 am 
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While I was in addiction, I couldn't afford a computer let alone the internet so no I was not giving people advice on how to taper.

And my using Sub in addiction was more like ... "I really wanna get clean" ... friend hands me a sheet of sub from his drawer "use these" ... I use em for a week then go "fuck it this sucks time to use". If I'd ran outta money to use and I wanted to use, I'd find a way to get money no matter the cost.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2012 12:29 pm 
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I hear ya on that one for sure! I didn't have anything past the necessities while in my heavy using days. I never bought off the street because I was too chicken, but I spent more than my fair share on doctors visits, unnecessary tests, and pharmacies than I care to remember. For the past year I have been honestly trying so very hard. But it wasn't til I totally admitted that I had NO power over this, that I tried suboxone and have been willing to work a program.

See, tj, the way you were using sub, doesn't bother me. I can remember saying the same things to myself, and a week later sayin "f it, I'm getting high." So thats a little defferent. I just hate when people act like they know it all and in realtiy, they dont know anything. I've seen a lot of your posts, and you have come a long way from just 6 months and a year ago! That is something to be proud of! I guess maybe the post I originally made, left some of room for interpretation and I should be more specific next time. All of us are here for support, I need it, and I'd also like to give it back. That's all I'm here for. Have a great day, and best of luck to you in your road to recovery!!

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2012 2:00 pm 
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Out of my entire four years on suboxone, I only spent the first year taking it improperly.. but I wasn't involved in any websites at that time..

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2012 2:26 pm 
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Just out of curiosity, why do you think that is? I started a topic a while back titled "feeling like dosing", because I would get these urges to take more sub than I should be. I wouldn't be withdrawaling or anything. I would just feel like taking a pill i guess. I ended up coming to the conclusion that it was because of all the time i spent "topping" off during my addiction. You know, taking a few more pills for a little boost during the day. Maybe I just needed to change the behavior. Fortunately I dont get those urges anymore, and I only took more than I should 2 different days. But I'm curious what your reasons were when you did it Jonathan.
If you don't mind....I don't want anyone feeling uncomfortable.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2012 8:59 pm 
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I think for the most part I was looking for what's called the "reward" that an addict gets from the activity of pill-popping...

When you eat painkillers, obviously you know that you get the reward (or so it's thought of at THAT time) of being "buzzed" or "high"...that euphoric feeling...

I think that may have carried over into the suboxone treatment a bit..I was seeking that "reward", but until I came to blows with the fact that no matter how much I took, I was going to feel the same...

Now, looking back, I KNOW that I was just young in my recovery...and I'm far from a seasoned veteran in Suboxone treatment..but I've come a LOT farther than I did when I took my meds improperly...

I never tried abusing it by snorting, definitely never injected (anything for that matter, even in active), and never did binges like I used to with Oxy...but I just would take extra because it was available...

That's the best I can describe it because not being in that mindset now, I'm not sure what I thought I would get from taking more..but we're all trained to think that "more pill equals more reaction from said pill".....

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2012 12:19 am 
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It takes a while to be ready to give up that lifestyle in its entirety.

The way I see it, Sub provides a kinda smoothe transition from active addiction into recovery. A person might not be ready to stop using completely, but sporadic periods of using Sub, even if they're not intending to stay on, may provide a glimmer of stability, just enough to have the clarity to realise what they're doing in their life. So they go see a doc and do Sub legitimate, but still have periods of using occasionally. But as they get employment, education, relationships, slowly their life builds up so much that using becomes a thing of the past.

This is opposed to an abstinence based program, where a person goes to detox and / or rehab and is all of the sudden expected to know how to lead a normal life in its entirety. Of course heaps of people are going to fall back into their old ways.

When I look at my time of hating Sub while I was in addiction... It was just another example of me turning my back on one of the pathways to recovery. My addiction loved to make me do that. Sometimes I wonder if my bashing on NA is another example of this?

Goinstrong, originally those people who bash Sub and act like they know it all pissed me off as well. I guess when I was moderating it was happening so much I kinda stopped letting it affect me. Instead of it being :x it's more like :roll: these days.


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2012 5:25 am 
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tearj3rker wrote:
The way I see it, Sub provides a kinda smoothe transition from active addiction into recovery. A person might not be ready to stop using completely, but sporadic periods of using Sub, even if they're not intending to stay on, may provide a glimmer of stability, just enough to have the clarity to realise what they're doing in their life. So they go see a doc and do Sub legitimate, but still have periods of using occasionally. But as they get employment, education, relationships, slowly their life builds up so much that using becomes a thing of the past..


Quite honestly, that is probably the best way I have heard it explained. And I agree 100%. Suboxone did provide a smooth transition for me. And I am very grateful for that. I totally understand what you are saying about having a few moments to think clearly before they decide to use again. It does give them time to think. Wow, I believe you may have changed my mind (just a little) :o on how to look at this. Not that giving advice to people when abusing suboxone isnt irritating, but this does give me a different angle of looking at it. Thanks for that!

I wondered the same thing too about bashing aa...If I did it because subconsciously I didn't want to get clean, but now that I am clean and working a program I have come to realize that....i just don't like it. It isn't for me and it never will be. I waited 2 years longer than I should have, to get on suboxone because of all the horror stories that I had heard about it from people in "the rooms". They were just pissed because people could get clean without them. But I am there now, and so glad!

Jonathan, I hear ya! I had someone else explain that my behavior of wanting to dose out of habit, rather than necessity, was just like your situation. I was trained for so long to get a reward for popping a few pills. So it is going to take time for that feeling to entirely go away. I spent years rewiring my brain to think differently. Now I am going to have to spend some time, undoing that crazy thinking. Maybe this is why I read SO MUCH on this forum. I want as much knowledge as possible. And it does help to get different points of view from people.

I'd love to hear some other thoughts from different people too about this. I know there are alot of other members that have knowledge and experience also. That's why I love this place. I enjoy the different points of view as long as they are presented in a respectful and noncnfrontational manner, I get scared easily! :lol:

Have a great day all!

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2012 6:10 am 
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goinstrong Hi'. it get's me a little too with some one coming on here like they no every thing wile there still using and sorta mess the understanding of this forum and we just give they'r little ignorant brains a boost to get back to what there here for :) .

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2012 8:13 am 
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To be honest, I think - just off the top of my head - that the majority of the people put on suboxone try in some way shape or form to take it inappropriately to get some kind of feeling from it. I know I did. Once or twice in the beginning of my tx, I felt "something" when I dosed, so I kept trying to get that feeling back, but to no avail. So I stepped it up. I started snorting my tablets. I did that for about 4-6 days, if I recall correctly. Then one morning I saw myself in the mirror doing exactly what I was doing with my Opana and I horrified myself. I pushed those crumbs down the sink and never snorted my sub again.

I agree that it's somehow transitional. I also think it's partially human nature to test the waters and to see how far we can push things. I'll also say that all these people who told us they took sub inappropriately in the beginning made it thru the transition and didn't relapse. It's almost like it's part of the process, although I have no idea how to describe why.

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