It is currently Wed Aug 16, 2017 3:55 pm



All times are UTC - 5 hours [ DST ]


Our Sponsors





Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 25 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next
Author Message
PostPosted: Tue Aug 02, 2011 5:02 am 
Offline
Power Poster
Power Poster
User avatar

Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2011 8:59 pm
Posts: 59
Who has experienced PAWS?Can you share some details? Length of time you had it,severity,advice, and what helped you during this time? I went back on subs. due to PAWS,I thought I was the only one who did that.The more I read ,I know that is not true at all.During that time I went through quite a few anti-depressant's,with no results.I gave them ample.time to work as well.It was a really dark time for me.As I still think of coming off subs.when I am ready.......I know I have to be ready for what put me back on them,the 2nd time that is,It was unbearable.Any and all experience's are welcome.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Aug 02, 2011 6:11 am 
Offline
Long Time Member
Long Time Member
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jul 15, 2010 5:08 am
Posts: 1503
16 months give or take.

It's also one of those gradual things. After 3 months you look back at when you first got clean and it's like "whoah can't believe I thought like that!". Then at 9 months you're blown away by your state of mind at 3 months.

How much of it is PAWS and how much of it is just adjusting to life without drugs is hard to tell. But there's definitely a feeling of being a fish out of water, or being naked and exposed, of social awkwardness and mild anxiety.

I never had depression as such, but my moods were definitely up and down. Over time these mood swings got less intense and further apart.

Advice? Some kind of recovery program helps. SMART recovery, NA, counselling. Push through the barriers. Rememeber it gets better. With every challenge comes growth.

It's tempting to resort to medication as we've come from a world of dealing with every problem with medications. PAWS symptoms are best dealt with pushing through the barriers. Exceptions being if the depression is potentially harmful or if you used to deal with mental health issues.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Aug 31, 2011 8:28 pm 
Offline
Power Poster
Power Poster
User avatar

Joined: Sun Aug 28, 2011 2:44 am
Posts: 88
Location: NWNJ
Sub has helped my paws.Ive been on and off opiates and putting myself into withdrawal at least every month(with exception to a good streak) for 6 years.I was in a chronic state of paws,even when I quit once for 6 months.Thats one thing I was hoping sub would alleviate and so far it has.I feel good,motivated,not wanting to lay around on couch all day etc...I havent been on it long and have yet to find the right dose but so far so good.Best I've felt in a long time.

_________________
I just want to get the monkey off of my back for good!!


Top
 Profile  
 
Our Sponsors
PostPosted: Sun Oct 09, 2011 8:55 am 
Offline
Power Poster
Power Poster

Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2011 3:49 pm
Posts: 42
Location: Canada
PAWS is real, scary, and down right life altering.
The withdrawals have nothing on PAWS. I was 62 days clean and still everyday could not function. The depression was so bad that I actually planned my own death. Nothing I did helped, therapy, upping my antidepressants, a glass or two of wine, nothing. I am back on opiates until the21st mostly because of PAWS and will really pray that this is my answer as being clean was far from being rewarding. It was pure hell. I would rather detox a million times a year than go through the PAWS ever again.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Oct 09, 2011 10:41 am 
Offline
Long Time Member
Long Time Member
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jul 15, 2010 5:08 am
Posts: 1503
Can you get PAWS on Sub? Or is it after you get off opiates altogether?

Yeah I'll agree that the PAWS is harder than the detox. Same reason they say anyone can get clean, but staying clean is the hard thing.

for me PAWS was like learning to ride a bike with no training wheels. I started using so young that once I got off opiates I had no idea who I was, what I wanted, what I liked. I didn't know how to talk to people. Life felt really anxious. I went to a PAWS hospital (drug rehab) for 6 months to learn how to live and take care of myself again, and I still relapsed before I got comfortable with myself at 13 months clean.

In PAWS we learn that everything we do in life is life altering. Every decision we make. Getting clean is scary business, living life without drugs is scary business. But people get through PAWS and find themselves eventually. They just want to get clean enough.

PAWS doesn't kill u as long as you don't decide to die by relapsing.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Oct 09, 2011 10:30 pm 
Offline
Long Time Member
Long Time Member

Joined: Sun Mar 27, 2011 9:45 pm
Posts: 833
how can a person live in a paws like that? it's like living dead. and the person is in so much fear killing them self
would be a hell of a chore! relapse would just be a simple mistake.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Oct 10, 2011 8:25 am 
Offline
Power Poster
Power Poster

Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2011 3:49 pm
Posts: 42
Location: Canada
People who suffer PAWS never really know what they are doing... You are in a constant fog. You can not see clearly, let alone think clearly. It is the number one reason for relapse, after detox and a while afterwards. The ppl who relaps because they don't think they will be addicted again, those are the ones making a mistake. The ones who relaps because it's relaps or death. With me, no one could help me, I'm on and have tried 30 different antidepressants. Sometimes you have to make tough decisions in life, the one to relaps or die by your own hand, is the toughest. That is when i decided to turn to subs.
So yes, PAWS IS THAT BAD.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Oct 10, 2011 8:42 am 
Offline
Long Time Member
Long Time Member
User avatar

Joined: Wed Apr 29, 2009 12:55 pm
Posts: 4933
Location: Leesburg, FL
I haven't experienced PAWS, but yes, I've heard it can be quite devastating for some people. Lucky are the ones who don't have issues with PAWS (not everyone experiences it). A long slow taper will help reduce your chances of PAWS (as well as the acute w/d).

Also (and I don't have anything to back this up), in my opinion, I think it's possible that PAWS could be worse for the people who had the longest time overall on opiates. It just seems logical to me. But I have to remember that with the human body, common sense and logic don't always play into the equation.

Oh and you're certainly not the first and definitely won't be the last to go back on sub to taper more (or not) after suffering terrible PAWS.

Good luck and I'm hoping you'll feel better soon. :)

_________________
-As I have grown older, I've learned that pleasing everyone is impossible, but pissing everyone off is a piece of cake.

-I'm only responsible for what I say, not for what you understand.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Oct 10, 2011 9:20 am 
Offline
Long Time Member
Long Time Member
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jul 15, 2010 5:08 am
Posts: 1503
Feeb2011 wrote:
People who suffer PAWS never really know what they are doing... You are in a constant fog. You can not see clearly, let alone think clearly. It is the number one reason for relapse, after detox and a while afterwards. The ppl who relaps because they don't think they will be addicted again, those are the ones making a mistake. The ones who relaps because it's relaps or death. With me, no one could help me, I'm on and have tried 30 different antidepressants. Sometimes you have to make tough decisions in life, the one to relaps or die by your own hand, is the toughest. That is when i decided to turn to subs.
So yes, PAWS IS THAT BAD.


Paws is not that bad feebs. Life is not that bad. Harden up, pick urself up and get on with it.

There's people on chemotherapy who would give anything to be in paws. There's people who've just been told they have 18 months to live who would give anything to have the kind of chances we got. Do we really know bad?

I don't wanna get crankypants but you gotta look at the big picture. PAWS is hard but like lots of hard things it's worth it in the long run. Also by being melodramatic it's easy to scare people off attempting to get clean.


Top
 Profile  
 
   
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Oct 10, 2011 11:43 am 
Offline
Long Time Member
Long Time Member
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jul 21, 2011 10:43 am
Posts: 893
Location: AZ
Hi Feebs, I am sorry you have such a hard time with paws. Sub could be the answer to your prayers, but I want you to know that if you stop taking it you will most likely be in the same spot as you are now. A long, slow taper could help to minimize paws but there are no guarantees. If you are comfortable staying on sub long term then that would keep the paws away, however if you do not then you are going to have to seek help. Is it possible you may be dealing with another mental disorder besides just depression? I know everyone reacts to paws differently but you seem to get to a really dark place. Sub can give you time you need to address your issues, if you ever decide to come off subs I think you would benefit from an in-patient rehab or hospitalization like tear was talking about. You have to find the root to your severe depression and suicidal thoughts.

I really wish you the best and all the happiness in the world, hang in there and keep in touch!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Oct 10, 2011 1:25 pm 
Offline
Power Poster
Power Poster

Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2011 3:49 pm
Posts: 42
Location: Canada
It was the PAWS that inevitably made me go back to using opiates on a larger scale than prescribed.
I start my sub treatment in less than two weeks in th hopes that it can lessen the PAWS to a manageable degree. It's like what tear said, having to learn everything all over again. I do not have the ability to go into long term treatment, or I would be there now. I am a single parent of two kids, work 40hrs a week at the same place for over 13 years. My regular, everyday life cannot be put on hold while I go away for months. Otherwise I would choose that over subs. I need subs so I can maintain normalcy. I already take an antidepressant and have tried well over 30 types in combination and without. I'm sorry if my original post made it seem like im in PAWS not, because I am not. I will be holding subs very close in my bag of wishes that it will do most of the work, while I can do the rest of the healing process.
Thanks and sorry if I did not clearly explain myself earlier. It's been a horrible weekend and am so glad it's over.
Thanksgiving Monday holiday!!, blah, I'd rather beat work!
Cheers


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Oct 10, 2011 10:07 pm 
Offline
Long Time Member
Long Time Member
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jul 15, 2010 5:08 am
Posts: 1503
Glad I could hear more of your story feeb. Sorry if I was abrupt. Looks like we're both going through some stuff atm.

My experience with PAWS was different, and the amount of responsibility I had might have had something to do with it?

I got clean by sending myself to a remote "therapeutic community" (aka boot camp) interstate, and in the country ("out bush"). It was outside this little town in rural NSW which had a reputation as everyone having two heads. It was next to a state prison, and lots of people got paroled into it.

The place was very full on. Getting woken up at 3am for house groups because one of the women walked to the fridge at midnight, or cos 3 residents are getting interviewed at the police station for doing a burg in town, and teaching a koori bloke how to scrub a toilet for the first time. Intense stuff. By 5 months in I was forced to run the place, TC style. I still have a real bond to the ppl I did that program with, even tho we're in much different places in life. The first time I'd made real friends for a long time.

Got out of there at 6 months and moved to a nearby industrial city on the coast. Spent the next 7 months doing daily NA meetings, part time work, gym every day, bobbing on a surf board on the horizon. Didn't know how to talk to people, didn't know what I wanted outta life, but neither did my mates. It was like we were all kids again. Every day jumping into the ocean off the rocks and getting sucked out to sea.

At 13 months clean I got really depressed. In hindsight I know why as well, and NA politics and a woman had a bit to do with it. I had a reservation that if my mental health issues kicked back in, I could use to get relief. Turns out I still had that reservation recently.

Anyway, I would give anything to be back in that PAWS, with no Suboxone, no medications. Instead I got hep C when I relapsed, moved back to the city, relapsed a couple more times, got back on Suboxone and now I'm on interferon with my hair falling out, unable to study, unable to work, trying to keep it together.

But I know I'll get back there, and overall I'm moving in the right direction.

PAWS is ..nothing.. compared to the hell of using.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Hep C...
PostPosted: Tue Oct 11, 2011 11:32 am 
Offline
6 Months or More
6 Months or More
User avatar

Joined: Sat Jul 23, 2011 9:55 am
Posts: 252
Location: Over the Rainbow
tearj3rker wrote:
<snip> Instead I got hep C when I relapsed, moved back to the city, relapsed a couple more times, got back on Suboxone and now I'm on interferon with my hair falling out, unable to study, unable to work, trying to keep it together.

But I know I'll get back there, and overall I'm moving in the right direction.

PAWS is ..nothing.. compared to the hell of using.



Hi, tearjerker.

I realize that this is a bit off of the original topic, but I also have Hep C-
I was diagnosed in 2000. Last July, I had started on a course of Ribovirin and Interferon
that was supposed to last 6 months. However, 3 months into it, I was so weak, and my red blood cell
levels were down so low, that I just had to stop that therapy. My hair also fell out- about 1/4 of it;
however, it has grown back in, after I stopped that therapy last September. So, your hair WILL grow back.

I will be getting my liver levels- including viral load- checked in the first part of November.
(The 3 months of therapy DID bring my liver levels back closer to normal, but I am still Hep C positive, of course.
Anyway, I wish you much luck with your Interferon treatment. Are you also on Ribavirin?
(You can send me a PM- if you want to keep this thread on-topic.)

Now, as far as PAWS (Post Acute Withdrawal Syndrome- I believe)- I have never been through it.
However, I will probably HAVE to go through it at some time in the future; so, I have been following
this thread to see what it will be like. I like what you said about PAWS not being like the hell of using.

Take care, and hang in there.

-ex-

_________________
"-"


Top
 Profile  
 
   
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Oct 11, 2011 11:40 am 
Offline
Long Time Member
Long Time Member
User avatar

Joined: Thu Oct 21, 2010 10:39 am
Posts: 4028
Location: Sitting at my computer
Hey feeb, did ya eat lots of turkey yesterday?? Did ya have mashed taters, with gravy and dressing?? OMGosh, I'm making myself SOO hungry!! :D

Like you, I quit pain meds and I could NOT handle the PAWS/crushing depression that came with it. I gave up after 30 days and started back on pain meds just to end the frickin' PAWS. Somehow attempting to quit and failing miserably triggered me to abuse my pain meds like never before. I finally got up to the point of spending about $85 a day chasing damn pain pills down. It became a part time job for me. I would go to work all day, then I'd chase pain pills down with the rest of my free time. Sick shit.

I FINALLY discovered Suboxone in 2007. I got on it and stayed on it for 3 years. I stayed at a pretty high dose, 16mg to 24mg, for the most part. When I finally decided to get off of Suboxone, I completely buggered up my taper up and ended up jumping off a decently high dose, in the neighborhood of 5mg. I was scared crapless of PAWS and the crushing depression that was gonna accompany it, but the crushing depression never materialized? The acute wd was pretty harsh, but the PAWS were manageable. The PAWS sucked, don't get me wrong, but the PAWS I experienced from jumping off a high dose of Suboxone was NOTHING like the PAWS from jumping off of pain meds.

If I were you, I'd get on Suboxone. I'd get stable, at a fairly low dose if you can. Then I'd start working on a taper. I believe if you taper yourself off of Suboxone, you're giving yourself the best shot at minimizing PAWS. Of course, you should do all of this at YOUR own pace.

Also, like Tear has said a few times now, PAWS and learning to live life without drugs can be a blurry line. I'm currently in the "learning to live life without drugs" phase and it's certainly difficult at times.....could easily be mistaken for PAWS at times.

_________________
Be kind to yourself. Our character defects do NOT define who we are!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Oct 11, 2011 11:07 pm 
Offline
Long Time Member
Long Time Member
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jul 15, 2010 5:08 am
Posts: 1503
I see them as one and the same Romeo. I get the feeling we all have our own boundary where we kinda give things a medical label, and when we view them as "life on life's terms" if you get what I mean.

Yeah exorphin. I don't want to thread hijack, maybe we should move to pm? Anyway, my hair was falling out. The amount of filth and hair stuck to my comb in the shower was beyond a joke, so I ended up shaving my head. One of the best things I've done for tx so far. Now I see why they compare it to chemo!

I hit a 3 month wall as well, and things really got nuts. My bipolar kicked in, nearly went full blown manic, started using briefly. Taking care of yourself on tx is a must I've realised. Vitamins, diet, addiction recovery, everything becomes a real fine balance. Vitamin B12 has helped with the red blood count and I'm not so breathless. Also vitamin D supplements can really help get SVR. Overall I just take a multivitamin, vitamin D, watch my diet like a hawk and try to get a bit of exercise. Also my life has been stripped back phenomenally to the point of boredom, which def made relapse easier.

Yes I'm on ribavirin as well. 2 pink meanies morning and night.

Give yourself another go on tx I think, at least at some point. I know someone who's in a non-interferon tx trial who's doing really well with very mild side effects, so keep your ears open in the future. What's helped me stick to it is remembering that some people have it for 12 months. We're the lucky ones! And they have hit some real difficulties. I've also found a good online support group of ppl who know their stuff.

If you wanna talk more drop me a pm.

Back to the paws!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Oct 11, 2011 11:51 pm 
Offline
Long Time Member
Long Time Member
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jul 15, 2010 5:08 am
Posts: 1503
One of the best things for PAWS is exercise. I remember after I'd run or work out, the runners high would make me feel calm and comfortable, and the symptoms of PAWS would feel better for a bit. But in the long run, every time I exercised I think made PAWS shorter.

Also I think a person's age makes a fair bit of difference in how long they spend in PAWS, or how long they "bounce back" from opiate addiction.

And the number one symptom of paws I think, and this is a 12-step concept as well, is self-obsession. Sitting in the middle of the room, getting all anxious because you think people are looking at you. It's almost a pseudo-paranoia and anxiety, and it can make it hard to talk to people.

In early recovery off opiates I remembered always thinking I had boogers hanging out of my nose (no joke), and it made me all self-conscious and anxious, constantly blowing my nose etc.

IMO you recover from PAWS so slowly that it's almost impossible to gauge how long it lasts. But I'll take a stab and say, generously, that a person should give themselves 2 years, with the first 3 months the hardest. Apparently only 5% of people relapse after they reach 2 years clean, across all addictions.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Oct 12, 2011 7:50 am 
Offline
Long Time Member
Long Time Member
User avatar

Joined: Wed Apr 29, 2009 12:55 pm
Posts: 4933
Location: Leesburg, FL
I think it would be interesting to see if the people with the worst, longest-lasting PAWS correlates at all with the total length of time the person was on full opiate agonists. Many people tend to look at PAWS and compare it with how long they were on Suboxone only, but I think that leaves out a huge factor....the many years that a person spent on opiates while in active addiction. I would think that a person who was in active addiction for say, 5 years, and was on sub for 7 months, would have PAWS that I would equate more to the full opiate agonists than to the 7 month suboxone treatment.

Now all that said, I have no studies to back that up. It just makes logical sense to me. I'm curious to hear some thoughts on this.

_________________
-As I have grown older, I've learned that pleasing everyone is impossible, but pissing everyone off is a piece of cake.

-I'm only responsible for what I say, not for what you understand.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Oct 12, 2011 9:28 am 
Offline
Long Time Member
Long Time Member
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jul 15, 2010 5:08 am
Posts: 1503
Does anyone know whether PAWS is a result of opiates effect on the brain, or whether it's a result of addiction? I mean, given people suffer PAWS coming all drugs - alcohol, marijuana, benzos, coke, speed, and poly-drug addicts as well - then it's kinda evidence that PAWS is a result of addiction as a whole rather than the effect of any particular drug on the brain?

Given that, would people recovering from a big gambling problem feel these same symptoms as PAWS in their early recovery? (a quick google finds this: http://www.victoriaga.org/withdrawal.htm )

Also (and more importantly), would this mean that people won't feel the same PAWS after living a stable life on Suboxone than coming straight out of active addiction?

The people I've known who got clean off the stability of suboxone & methadone, adjusted to the clean life much better than the people coming straight outta the madness of addiction. Evidence that PAWS is less about the drug and more about the addiction?

There's a lot of unanswered questions about the PAWS concept, and there's very few studies that have nailed it objectively. It will be interesting when they do. PAWS is not in the DSM-IV.

PAWS was originally championed by a guy named Terence Gorski, who also came up with the idea of Post Incarceration Syndrome (PIS) for what people feel like when they first get outta jail. As far as I can tell he has no qualifications in the field. While these "symptoms" no doubt exist, I look at them more as psychological states that happen in the recovery process.


Last edited by tearj3rker on Wed Oct 12, 2011 9:43 am, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Oct 12, 2011 9:43 am 
Offline
Long Time Member
Long Time Member

Joined: Sun Mar 27, 2011 9:45 pm
Posts: 833
i don't no much". just being a music". if you brake a leg, it will show up on x-ray for the rest of your life.
now straining the brain''' could it be the same? :lol:


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Oct 12, 2011 9:45 am 
Offline
Long Time Member
Long Time Member
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jul 15, 2010 5:08 am
Posts: 1503
johnboy wrote:
i don't no much". just being a music". if you brake a leg, it will show up on x-ray for the rest of your life.
now straining the brain''' could it be the same? :lol:


You just said everything I've been trying to say in 2 lines. :lol:


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 25 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next

All times are UTC - 5 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Our Sponsors
Suboxone Forum latest topics RSS feed Subscribe to the entire forum
 

 

 
Fond Du Lac Psychiatry
Dr. Jeffrey Junig, M.D., Ph.D.

  • Board Certified Psychiatrist
  • Asst Clinical Professor, Medical College of Wisconsin

Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group