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PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2012 8:45 pm 
laddertipper wrote:
This morning, I had chills at 3:50 when I got up


Some nights I don't even fall asleep till 4 am..

Maybe when I'm up, I should go for a run :)

I don't know how the hell you do that, but I think it is super admirable you push through that shitty PAWS so early in the morning.

I'm having my wisdom teeth out the 26th and I have till then to get as low on the Sub as I can..bleh.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2012 8:48 pm 
Redemption wrote:
But least am planning Ibogaine..I dont care if it's risky and can kill you. I am not going to suffer for so long, I can't.. I just cannot..There was someone who died of Ibogaine recently and she never had any health issues, she even did EKG, liver function test and everything yet Ibogaine killed her.. So its risky, espeacially if you took sub for 6 years as it messes your liver.. And yes I know ibogaine can give brain damage and even more depression because the ibogaine has anti-depressent qualities but its a risk am prepared to take..


Have you ever taken a hallucinogen?

Have you ever tripped balls for 6-8 hours while in w/d?

Sounds horrid.


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 Post subject: Re: Ladytripper Posts
PostPosted: Wed Jan 11, 2012 12:09 pm 
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finallyachance wrote:
I have found myself reading every post I can of yours to find out about this P.A.W.'s. But because I am having to skip from one subject matter to another to read about it I am getting confused. For us newbies that have not been here long enough to read back post concernng this long careful taper and the paws being such a nightmare nor do we understand the effects could you educate me/us on this P.A.W.'s. I have read and understand the slow taper but did the doctor tell you when you got on sub's that this paws would or could be the issue it has been? I take methadone is that the same? Because paws has never been mentioned to me. I have been encouraged to stay on methadone as long as I can. Short term methadone versus long term methadone supposedly can be short termers usually relapse and two years is minumin and longer is better. Is that all B.S. and can and will I have to go thru this paws because I choose long term? I mean break it down to me please. I take methadone to escape the opiate withdrawals that might have lasted a few weeks at most and I go to methadone that clearly the withdrawals are going to be stiffer if I fail to slowly slowly taper off to the bad effects of a slow taper is having to remain on methadone even longer which can make me have paws for years which is why I went on methadone in the first place was to AVOID WITHDRAWALS?


I'm sorry, but I don't know anything about methadone. Suboxone is confusing enough to me. No, I was never warned about PAWS. I still don't understand how or why it would happen if someone tapers very low. I'm just as confused as you are, frankly. I don't know if a person is better off jumping high up or tapering low down. Methadone has been around longer than high-dose maintenance Suboxone, so I'd assume a lot more information has been accumulated. I wish I could break it all down for you, but I cannot break it down for myself! I'm just reporting my experiences as I go.

Just don't panic. Your experience is going to be unique to you. Sometimes, I question whether to post certain things. I don't want to be a 'horror stories' poster, know what I mean? Then again, I want to tell the truth. And this is not a horror story. It's just tougher than I thought.

laddertipper

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 11, 2012 12:10 pm 
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i talked on another post about an X friend BILL'. and how he was doing so well being off suboxone for 6 months. he was on 16mg for 1and 1/2 years. well hell'. he's back on drugs and alcolhol and worst off than ever and i want him in jail for fucking my life up. but i'm getting over his shit and what he did. if he comes here again i will loose it or hopefully call the cops.
some people are bad and some good with or with out suboxone. i just know one thing? i am not gong off suboxone untill they come up with something that will help this PAWS shit. i don't think its worth tapering off and then going through all that horrible shit.
staying on it is not as bad as stoping it and ending up at a much higher risk in losing my life. were all going to dye sooner or later . and me being on subs humbles me with pain. but it also pays off on a daily basis if i make it happen? and it does happen
because suboxone can help give a little boost in some ways. well'. is God working with me in this? yes i believe he is.
he love's people that are humble, for they think deeper and wiser. if he wants me on iboga in the future " then he will lead me there i hope? we all get are self's in more pain for some reason? maybe because our child hood abuse makes us that way because we believe that we deserve it? Hat having that feeling of depression and anxioty because of here family friend, and hope you don't mind me saying this HATMAKER? but it is to allow these feelings to taunt us. we have enough burden on us, yet we let more happen. i wish i could stop this also so i can get a better life for my self? well anyway'. if paws can mess with your sarotonin level? then medication can help.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 11, 2012 12:13 pm 
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Orfythegreat wrote:
Sorry I don't have time for a long answer but...

I was on Methadone for shortly over a year and experienced PAWS. It is actually how I ended up on Subs...I couldn't handle the PAWS. My PAWS experience started at about two weeks after being Methadone free and peeked a couple months after (can't remember the exact time frames). For me, PAWS included restlessness, a general feeling of discontent, slight anxiety, vivid dreams, never feeling at ease, unhappy (I wouldn't call it depressed), body/temperature control problems....some of this would be simultaneous, other times it woulld be one symptom at a time. All of which had a basic overtone in the back of my brain..("opiates will cure this itch"). Although these symptoms are not DIRECT cravings, I always knew in the back of my head I was still withdrawing. I had no idea PAWS existed but when my psychiatrists offered me subs I knew it would "solve" the problem. Now I'm back to square 1...wanting to get off Subs but fearing months, maybe years of the above mentioned. HOpe this helps.


That is such a great description of PAWS. Wow! I really identify with that. That's exactly how it feels for me too. I don't know what you should do....I don't know how exactly to avoid PAWS. I was on Sub so long compared to most people. Maybe that has something to do with it.

laddertipper

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 11, 2012 12:16 pm 
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Ironic wrote:
laddertipper wrote:
This morning, I had chills at 3:50 when I got up


Some nights I don't even fall asleep till 4 am..

Maybe when I'm up, I should go for a run :)

I don't know how the hell you do that, but I think it is super admirable you push through that shitty PAWS so early in the morning.

I'm having my wisdom teeth out the 26th and I have till then to get as low on the Sub as I can..bleh.


Um, you are giving me too much credit. It killed me to get up at 3:50. If there was a way out, I woulda taken it for sure. And I have to do it again tomorrow. I swear, I felt like I deserved a trophy, lol. However, you do feel so good after you do that stuff. It's a total mental game!!

laddertipper

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 11, 2012 1:11 pm 
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thats very good'. working out is the best for you ladder'. like orfythegreat said' paws is like w/d. well it is. paws is the liter part of w/d. and i can understand how working out would help. but it won't help me on suboxone for it speeds up my metabolism. but i can see it working for paws. for the brain is no longer interupted by the subs.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 11, 2012 8:34 pm 
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By far the best thing a person can do for PAWS is to stay clean. The moment we start using any opioid, the whole game pretty much starts over. Even using once pushes the clock back a month or two. And while in PAWS, it's very hard to keep it to just once anyway.

I'm no NA fiend, but in those rooms they'd say to newcomers "It gets better"... Looking back, I can kinda see how this relates to the PAWS game. It really does get better. I'm sure Laddertipper if you looked back at how sick you were when you were fresh outta w/d's you'd notice some improvement?

I'd say be wary of anything even related to opioids. Even codeine in a painkiller. Our brains are really sensitive in these early months. By 12-18 months opioid free, I bet you'll look back and realise how far you've come.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 11, 2012 9:52 pm 
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From my experience almost 9 months now off suboxone after a 6 year run Tearj3rker summed it up pretty much spot on.


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 Post subject: piffing paws
PostPosted: Thu Jan 12, 2012 12:06 am 
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Hi ladder, here's a my 2 cent's on paws.
The cycles of paws is seasonal, some seasons worse than others. Generally the cycles become less frequent , but can be pretty tough even a couple of years down the road, like an old war wound.
The very few folk I know who have managed paws and have not relapsed,[10 years] have done it only through profound change of life style that embraces holistic themes, in which life becomes a passisionate resolve to stay within those themes.
Some choose religion, some professions, charity work, etc,.
Meditation will help to short circuit your paws, just 1 hour a day, where you sit/lay, an allow your heart to beat free, without letting any thought pattern cause tension in your body. Make time to refresh your body on a daily basis -swim, walk, massage, etc,,,You've got to erease, thought patterns that switch on the addiction, so you change the thought as soon as your aware of it. There are ways to lift your spirit out of post addiction, where pain becomes joy and tears become laughter, but it takes work/training.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 12, 2012 4:29 am 
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Hellow everyone I just found this website yesterday.

I have read Laddertrippper's thread and I must say am also very suprised. First of all let me introduce myself, am from England, UK and here we only have Subutex not Suboxone. We also have small doses like 0.4 and 0.2. I have been taking subutex for 5 1/2 years. I started on 8mg and raised the dose to 14mg which I stayed on for couple of months, then went back down to 8mg where I stayed for 1 1/2 year and the next 3 years I have been tapering and have been taking between 1.5mg and 1mg. Basically been on low dose for the past 3 1/2 years. I have now reached to 0.9mg.

Am also worried people getting PAWS even after a steady slow long taper. I don't understand it? can I ask you Laddertipper if your lenght of taper minimized the acute withdrawals? surely the long slow taper had its benifits? surely if you had jumped from a higher dose you or did not taper you would be in withdrawals?

Did you at least get clear headed? Did you feel the sub fog lift? I read that you are not mentally depressed but the symptoms are pshycal correct? do you think this might because you tapered long and slow that you let your brain adapt to a decrease and with small amounts in your receptors that mentally you function alright but its the pshycal issue which gets to you? I think the depression people speak off after sub is because they do not give their receptors time to adjust to decreases long enough?

my theory on this PAWS is that the sub may do something to our receptors which contributes to PAWS, this I read from quite a few sources, its not so much the actual sub in your receptors but what it triggers to do, basically bup is the source but PAWS come from the damage the bup does to our minds, this is just my take on it.

I have read few people consider Ibogaine or Iboga whatever. From what I witnessed it does not really do anything for long acting opiate users ESPEACIALLY sub users, apparently you need to be far away from sub for several months for it to do anything. I have personally spoke and met sub users who said they still had withdrawals after Iboga and PAWS still were there, so that put me off big time. Think about it if people are having PAWS months after stopping sub then is Ibogaine really going to do anything about that? even a provider I spoke to said if bup is still in play you will fail.

I personally cannot stay on sub any longer, I honestly do not know how some people want to stay on it for life. I so agree that it turns on you. For the first year I thought it was holding me but after that it turned me into a zombie, I felt uninterested to do anything, I still have those feelings now, am sorry I cannot live a life like that and which s not my real myself...

Now I do not know whether to just jump off now or continue to taper, if people are going to get PAWS anyway then isn't it wise we taper slowly to at least minimise the acute withdrawals? I dont know if jumping off a high dose or not tapering lessens PAWS, am confused..I genuinely thought with a steady long taper like Laddertripper did will not make her suffering as she is now. Surely there is some benifit of a long steady taper and finishing off from a low dose?


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 12, 2012 10:45 am 
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Freedom12 wrote:
Hellow everyone I just found this website yesterday.

I have read Laddertrippper's thread and I must say am also very suprised. First of all let me introduce myself, am from England, UK and here we only have Subutex not Suboxone. We also have small doses like 0.4 and 0.2. I have been taking subutex for 5 1/2 years. I started on 8mg and raised the dose to 14mg which I stayed on for couple of months, then went back down to 8mg where I stayed for 1 1/2 year and the next 3 years I have been tapering and have been taking between 1.5mg and 1mg. Basically been on low dose for the past 3 1/2 years. I have now reached to 0.9mg.

Am also worried people getting PAWS even after a steady slow long taper. I don't understand it? can I ask you Laddertipper if your lenght of taper minimized the acute withdrawals? surely the long slow taper had its benifits? surely if you had jumped from a higher dose you or did not taper you would be in withdrawals?

Did you at least get clear headed? Did you feel the sub fog lift? I read that you are not mentally depressed but the symptoms are pshycal correct? do you think this might because you tapered long and slow that you let your brain adapt to a decrease and with small amounts in your receptors that mentally you function alright but its the pshycal issue which gets to you? I think the depression people speak off after sub is because they do not give their receptors time to adjust to decreases long enough?

my theory on this PAWS is that the sub may do something to our receptors which contributes to PAWS, this I read from quite a few sources, its not so much the actual sub in your receptors but what it triggers to do, basically bup is the source but PAWS come from the damage the bup does to our minds, this is just my take on it.

I have read few people consider Ibogaine or Iboga whatever. From what I witnessed it does not really do anything for long acting opiate users ESPEACIALLY sub users, apparently you need to be far away from sub for several months for it to do anything. I have personally spoke and met sub users who said they still had withdrawals after Iboga and PAWS still were there, so that put me off big time. Think about it if people are having PAWS months after stopping sub then is Ibogaine really going to do anything about that? even a provider I spoke to said if bup is still in play you will fail.

I personally cannot stay on sub any longer, I honestly do not know how some people want to stay on it for life. I so agree that it turns on you. For the first year I thought it was holding me but after that it turned me into a zombie, I felt uninterested to do anything, I still have those feelings now, am sorry I cannot live a life like that and which s not my real myself...

Now I do not know whether to just jump off now or continue to taper, if people are going to get PAWS anyway then isn't it wise we taper slowly to at least minimise the acute withdrawals? I dont know if jumping off a high dose or not tapering lessens PAWS, am confused..I genuinely thought with a steady long taper like Laddertripper did will not make her suffering as she is now. Surely there is some benifit of a long steady taper and finishing off from a low dose?


I really hope I'm not scaring people. That scares me!

Freedom12, I can tell you with 100% certainty that (for me) my long slow taper made jumping virtually pain-free. And the placebo effects should have been against me, because I was expecting to have w/d no matter how far down I tapered. I literally stepped off while out of town with a frenemy who I would never, ever tell about Sub. I had no symptoms noticeable to anyone else. I actually slept each night, albeit not a ton of sleep, but tapering didn't always involve lots of sleep either. The symptoms I have now are not at all severe and actually very much resemble the jumping symptoms, which were so mild.

The current symptoms are only annoying in their duration. My temperature thermostat is messed up. It sets in sometimes at night, especially if I'm out. Mostly, it's in the morning, like right now. But I am not depressed. Sure, I'm kinda bummed at my inability to get going many mornings, but that's not depression. In fact, I'm really ready to get going with life! I feel way different off Suboxone and that is why I'm hell bent on staying off it. Everything is different. I've been in a weird state for a long time, and now I'm back. (That is just me.) I'm really having fun again. So many new friends, new experiences, laughing, loving adrenaline, etc. Life it fun!!

One helpful thing is to stop eating a while before bed. This is finally sinking in. I always have morning GI issues, and those have been more of an issue since I jumped.

I still think tapering so long was a good idea, because I did not want to endure a high jump. I have days when I get frustrated with the whole deal and how it lingers, but I'm going to be okay, and I don't want anyone else to be scared because of my experience. If you can stick with tapering all the way off Sub, you can stick with getting through PAWS. This is waaaayyy easier than tapering was.

I decided against Iboga too. The risks far outweighed the possible benefits, IMO.

laddertipper

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 12, 2012 4:40 pm 
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laddertipper wrote:
Freedom12 wrote:
Hellow everyone I just found this website yesterday.

I have read Laddertrippper's thread and I must say am also very suprised. First of all let me introduce myself, am from England, UK and here we only have Subutex not Suboxone. We also have small doses like 0.4 and 0.2. I have been taking subutex for 5 1/2 years. I started on 8mg and raised the dose to 14mg which I stayed on for couple of months, then went back down to 8mg where I stayed for 1 1/2 year and the next 3 years I have been tapering and have been taking between 1.5mg and 1mg. Basically been on low dose for the past 3 1/2 years. I have now reached to 0.9mg.

Am also worried people getting PAWS even after a steady slow long taper. I don't understand it? can I ask you Laddertipper if your lenght of taper minimized the acute withdrawals? surely the long slow taper had its benifits? surely if you had jumped from a higher dose you or did not taper you would be in withdrawals?

Did you at least get clear headed? Did you feel the sub fog lift? I read that you are not mentally depressed but the symptoms are pshycal correct? do you think this might because you tapered long and slow that you let your brain adapt to a decrease and with small amounts in your receptors that mentally you function alright but its the pshycal issue which gets to you? I think the depression people speak off after sub is because they do not give their receptors time to adjust to decreases long enough?

my theory on this PAWS is that the sub may do something to our receptors which contributes to PAWS, this I read from quite a few sources, its not so much the actual sub in your receptors but what it triggers to do, basically bup is the source but PAWS come from the damage the bup does to our minds, this is just my take on it.

I have read few people consider Ibogaine or Iboga whatever. From what I witnessed it does not really do anything for long acting opiate users ESPEACIALLY sub users, apparently you need to be far away from sub for several months for it to do anything. I have personally spoke and met sub users who said they still had withdrawals after Iboga and PAWS still were there, so that put me off big time. Think about it if people are having PAWS months after stopping sub then is Ibogaine really going to do anything about that? even a provider I spoke to said if bup is still in play you will fail.

I personally cannot stay on sub any longer, I honestly do not know how some people want to stay on it for life. I so agree that it turns on you. For the first year I thought it was holding me but after that it turned me into a zombie, I felt uninterested to do anything, I still have those feelings now, am sorry I cannot live a life like that and which s not my real myself...

Now I do not know whether to just jump off now or continue to taper, if people are going to get PAWS anyway then isn't it wise we taper slowly to at least minimise the acute withdrawals? I dont know if jumping off a high dose or not tapering lessens PAWS, am confused..I genuinely thought with a steady long taper like Laddertripper did will not make her suffering as she is now. Surely there is some benifit of a long steady taper and finishing off from a low dose?


I really hope I'm not scaring people. That scares me!

Freedom12, I can tell you with 100% certainty that (for me) my long slow taper made jumping virtually pain-free. And the placebo effects should have been against me, because I was expecting to have w/d no matter how far down I tapered. I literally stepped off while out of town with a frenemy who I would never, ever tell about Sub. I had no symptoms noticeable to anyone else. I actually slept each night, albeit not a ton of sleep, but tapering didn't always involve lots of sleep either. The symptoms I have now are not at all severe and actually very much resemble the jumping symptoms, which were so mild.

The current symptoms are only annoying in their duration. My temperature thermostat is messed up. It sets in sometimes at night, especially if I'm out. Mostly, it's in the morning, like right now. But I am not depressed. Sure, I'm kinda bummed at my inability to get going many mornings, but that's not depression. In fact, I'm really ready to get going with life! I feel way different off Suboxone and that is why I'm hell bent on staying off it. Everything is different. I've been in a weird state for a long time, and now I'm back. (That is just me.) I'm really having fun again. So many new friends, new experiences, laughing, loving adrenaline, etc. Life it fun!!

One helpful thing is to stop eating a while before bed. This is finally sinking in. I always have morning GI issues, and those have been more of an issue since I jumped.

I still think tapering so long was a good idea, because I did not want to endure a high jump. I have days when I get frustrated with the whole deal and how it lingers, but I'm going to be okay, and I don't want anyone else to be scared because of my experience. If you can stick with tapering all the way off Sub, you can stick with getting through PAWS. This is waaaayyy easier than tapering was.

I decided against Iboga too. The risks far outweighed the possible benefits, IMO.

laddertipper



Aye I also decided against Iboga because of the conflicting horror stories not just about brain dead and seizures but people still having withdrawals and PAWS after Iboga treatment.

Laddatripper so you take anything or do anything which helps your PAWS such as excercise? I heard that is the best or nearest cure to making withdrawals and PAWS doable..

The fog lifted yeah? thats my primary concern right now, when did you notice the fog lifting? after stopping bup or at the lattar stages of the taper? I assumed you did not do the skip process? does that really make any difference? I mean if someone is going to get PAWS for 3-4 months then is skipping for a month really going to heap any benefits? or is it a case of when you do not take sub alot of it comes out then when you take it?

congratulations of getting off 6 year sub use.. I still believe your steady long taper kept depression to a minimume albeit if pshycal symptoms still stand.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 12, 2012 4:55 pm 
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Freedom12 wrote:
laddertipper wrote:
Freedom12 wrote:
Hellow everyone I just found this website yesterday.

I have read Laddertrippper's thread and I must say am also very suprised. First of all let me introduce myself, am from England, UK and here we only have Subutex not Suboxone. We also have small doses like 0.4 and 0.2. I have been taking subutex for 5 1/2 years. I started on 8mg and raised the dose to 14mg which I stayed on for couple of months, then went back down to 8mg where I stayed for 1 1/2 year and the next 3 years I have been tapering and have been taking between 1.5mg and 1mg. Basically been on low dose for the past 3 1/2 years. I have now reached to 0.9mg.

Am also worried people getting PAWS even after a steady slow long taper. I don't understand it? can I ask you Laddertipper if your lenght of taper minimized the acute withdrawals? surely the long slow taper had its benifits? surely if you had jumped from a higher dose you or did not taper you would be in withdrawals?

Did you at least get clear headed? Did you feel the sub fog lift? I read that you are not mentally depressed but the symptoms are pshycal correct? do you think this might because you tapered long and slow that you let your brain adapt to a decrease and with small amounts in your receptors that mentally you function alright but its the pshycal issue which gets to you? I think the depression people speak off after sub is because they do not give their receptors time to adjust to decreases long enough?

my theory on this PAWS is that the sub may do something to our receptors which contributes to PAWS, this I read from quite a few sources, its not so much the actual sub in your receptors but what it triggers to do, basically bup is the source but PAWS come from the damage the bup does to our minds, this is just my take on it.

I have read few people consider Ibogaine or Iboga whatever. From what I witnessed it does not really do anything for long acting opiate users ESPEACIALLY sub users, apparently you need to be far away from sub for several months for it to do anything. I have personally spoke and met sub users who said they still had withdrawals after Iboga and PAWS still were there, so that put me off big time. Think about it if people are having PAWS months after stopping sub then is Ibogaine really going to do anything about that? even a provider I spoke to said if bup is still in play you will fail.

I personally cannot stay on sub any longer, I honestly do not know how some people want to stay on it for life. I so agree that it turns on you. For the first year I thought it was holding me but after that it turned me into a zombie, I felt uninterested to do anything, I still have those feelings now, am sorry I cannot live a life like that and which s not my real myself...

Now I do not know whether to just jump off now or continue to taper, if people are going to get PAWS anyway then isn't it wise we taper slowly to at least minimise the acute withdrawals? I dont know if jumping off a high dose or not tapering lessens PAWS, am confused..I genuinely thought with a steady long taper like Laddertripper did will not make her suffering as she is now. Surely there is some benifit of a long steady taper and finishing off from a low dose?


I really hope I'm not scaring people. That scares me!

Freedom12, I can tell you with 100% certainty that (for me) my long slow taper made jumping virtually pain-free. And the placebo effects should have been against me, because I was expecting to have w/d no matter how far down I tapered. I literally stepped off while out of town with a frenemy who I would never, ever tell about Sub. I had no symptoms noticeable to anyone else. I actually slept each night, albeit not a ton of sleep, but tapering didn't always involve lots of sleep either. The symptoms I have now are not at all severe and actually very much resemble the jumping symptoms, which were so mild.

The current symptoms are only annoying in their duration. My temperature thermostat is messed up. It sets in sometimes at night, especially if I'm out. Mostly, it's in the morning, like right now. But I am not depressed. Sure, I'm kinda bummed at my inability to get going many mornings, but that's not depression. In fact, I'm really ready to get going with life! I feel way different off Suboxone and that is why I'm hell bent on staying off it. Everything is different. I've been in a weird state for a long time, and now I'm back. (That is just me.) I'm really having fun again. So many new friends, new experiences, laughing, loving adrenaline, etc. Life it fun!!

One helpful thing is to stop eating a while before bed. This is finally sinking in. I always have morning GI issues, and those have been more of an issue since I jumped.

I still think tapering so long was a good idea, because I did not want to endure a high jump. I have days when I get frustrated with the whole deal and how it lingers, but I'm going to be okay, and I don't want anyone else to be scared because of my experience. If you can stick with tapering all the way off Sub, you can stick with getting through PAWS. This is waaaayyy easier than tapering was.

I decided against Iboga too. The risks far outweighed the possible benefits, IMO.

laddertipper



Aye I also decided against Iboga because of the conflicting horror stories not just about brain dead and seizures but people still having withdrawals and PAWS after Iboga treatment.

Laddatripper so you take anything or do anything which helps your PAWS such as excercise? I heard that is the best or nearest cure to making withdrawals and PAWS doable..

The fog lifted yeah? thats my primary concern right now, when did you notice the fog lifting? after stopping bup or at the lattar stages of the taper? I assumed you did not do the skip process? does that really make any difference? I mean if someone is going to get PAWS for 3-4 months then is skipping for a month really going to heap any benefits? or is it a case of when you do not take sub alot of it comes out then when you take it?

congratulations of getting off 6 year sub use.. I still believe your steady long taper kept depression to a minimume albeit if pshycal symptoms still stand.


I am taking .5 mg Klonopin, but I've been on that for years and years, and I'm taking a ton of vitamins. Oh yeah, and melatonin at night. I know Immodium would probably help, but I don't want to get dependent on even that. Yup, I'm exercising. The fog has absolutely lifted. I think it started lifting as I got really low on Sub.

To be honest, I have weird days, like today, where I feel like I'm getting some flu. My arms ache, like when you get shots, and my legs are aching and I just draaaagggg like nobody's business. This started last night and I fell asleep super early. Thank goodness my trainer rescheduled for tomorrow, because I'm so exhausted. I think I slept longer than I have since I can remember, but I'm still so tired and doing pretty much nothing. I was driving today but felt like I really shouldn't be, because my brain is so slow. I question whether the light is really green....does this make any sense?? From time to time in my taper, this crazy sleepwalking feeling happened and it still happens, thought not as bad. I don't know if this is Sub or not. It's an odd feeling!! Maybe it's me fighting off a bug, but it seems like the bug never shows up.

I didn't do the skipping thing. I was actually dosing three times a day and decreased slowly to only once, which was soooo rough for some reason. Once I did that, it got easier. Not sure why. Then, I just kept reducing.

I am very proud of being off Sub after 6 years on it!! It was a big challenge and I need to remember that I used to think I'd never be able to do it....

laddertipper

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 13, 2012 3:39 am 
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i hope were all speaking for are self tearjerker.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 13, 2012 5:19 am 
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i take it back tearjerker.

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 19, 2012 9:29 am 
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No probs JOhnboy.

Quote:
my theory on this PAWS is that the sub may do something to our receptors which contributes to PAWS, this I read from quite a few sources, its not so much the actual sub in your receptors but what it triggers to do, basically bup is the source but PAWS come from the damage the bup does to our minds, this is just my take on it.


It's good to keep in mind that we were altered like this by our addiction before we went on Sub.

I'm unsure if they really know the exact mechanisms behind PAWS yet, but I'm thinking along a similar line as you (though damage is a rich word). Some of the stuff I've read lately claim that much more is altered when we're hooked on opioids than just our brain's opioid system. Whenever a drug changes our brain's functioning in one area, there are always secondary systems that have to adapt around those changes as well. When we're in acute withdrawal the opioid system may regain some normalcy, but it can take a lot longer for the others to re-adjust around it. The dopaminergic pathway is the big one, and can be linked to so many of the PAWS symptoms (body temp, attention, sleep, mood, immune function). Dopamine interacts with serotonin as an opponent as well, so all its functions (mood, sleep, anxiety, appetite) could changing too.

There's this fantastic document about all this stuff. I'll put it in another thread.

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Now I do not know whether to just jump off now or continue to taper, if people are going to get PAWS anyway then isn't it wise we taper slowly to at least minimise the acute withdrawals? I dont know if jumping off a high dose or not tapering lessens PAWS, am confused..


There isn't much information about this out there. Laddertipper did have some post-acute withdrawals, but odds on they'd have been a LOT worse if she didn't do the taper she did. There are HUGE benefits to a long steady taper. It minimises acute withdrawal. It reduces any post-acute symptoms (though how much is unknown at this stage). And if you learn to get by with minimal opioid drugs in your body like at the end of your taper, it's the best preparation you can have for living opioid free.

People talk up this PAWS thing like it's hell on earth, often even if they haven't experienced it. A lot of it may be just fearing what we don't know. For me it was uncomfortable early on, but it was nowhere near the struggle of acute withdrawal. I hadn't even heard of PAWS when I was going through it for a year. That was probably a good thing!

View PAWS more as a process of healing and recovery than something to suffer through and it should help you on your way.


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 19, 2012 11:48 am 
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I agree with Tearj3rker on PAWS not being anything compared to acute w/d. The terrible acute symptoms were the reason I kept tapering so low. That crap is terrible. PAWS is annoying and can break people down because of the length of time it goes on, but to me, it was nothing compared to actually getting off the Sub. And you know that you're on the home stretch and things are getting better and not worse.

LT

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 25, 2012 6:56 am 
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Nice to meet you ladder. I am sorry you are having such a rough bout. But, from everything I read and studied about PAWS, you are having natural reaction to your brain healing. If you aren't eating regularly, and that means never being hungry, staying away from sugars and caffine, you are probalby suffering needlessly.

As for your taking medication I found this: PAWS symptoms reach a peak from three to six months after we get clean. Any use of drugs or alcohol, even in small quantities or for a short time, will effectively eliminate any improvement gained over that time, as it will keep the brain from healing. There are a variety of symptoms. Not everyone will experience all of them.

Sounds like you are one who experiences them all. Do you always get the raw end of the deal? This can all last up to 2 years. But, don't psyche yourself out over it. It could all end tomorrow. It is just signs of healing. The brain going back to its original state. Don't let it get you down. Preparation is the key to being able. But, you know all this, you all have taught this too me. Ty.

Know this though. You are getting better each day. And, nothing except falling back onto sub or something else can take that away.

As for helping with depression, try fish oil. It is the only natural product that stimulates serotonin. It will truly help with healing your brain too. And, some Imodium might help. It helps take away w/d symptoms.

I do recommend you read through this thread again and read the sites that you were given. I did and this is where I got some of this information.

You are very lucky that this group has taken you in. I hope that I get some support on my tapering and recovery too. Think we all need it. Sad that we don't do the live meetings anymore. Oh well. Good luck, stay safe and be happy.

I too would suggest smoking marijuana. If your state is legal, you should be able to find a dr. who will give prescribe. This will help with the anxiety and make it so you can eat.


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